It is important to have fun while you work. it is a great thing to have fun AND get paid for it...
Keep having fun!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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I think it lacks the "pop" it needs. You chose colours that were too dark for a window graphic. A window usually acts like a dark backdrop. You need to accomodate for that with light colours. Unless the interior of an establishment is exceptionally well lit, this is the case.
I can't read your lettering, and so I doubt others can either. I'd be willing to bet this goes beyond photo quality too.
Sure do like the concept of your graphic, but I think it could have been executed in a more effective matter.
Can you see what I'm saying?
Stick with us Kenny, you'll learn stuff. I know I have!
Janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
What do I think? I think you have to put on your 'tough suit' when asking what others think! There are those who are very brutally honest, and there are those who are so kind as to never say a harsh word. Around here you have to learn to read between the lines and get to know the people who post. I have adjusted my lightness/darkness on my monitor..and I really still can't see your sign very well Kenny. I admire you for posting your handlettering for all to critique. Handpainted signs are not done enough anymore. I would love to see more of your work. Hang in there and keep smilin'.
One way is to ask for an opinion. This is like sticking yer neck into a meat grinder.
Another way is to ask for advice on how to do a better job. Often this is very productive because many will offer ideas.
I think you did a grat job. I know yer camera dint do your work justice.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Well, some may feel that it's the quality of the photo, or perhaps even their monitor setting that is keeping that window from being seen at it's best. However, notice how the white areas "pop" off that window? I see those light pink fingernails just fine, the lt. flesh in the face and the light grey trim in the building is in good view also.
I submit that if the lettering were in a lighter shade of colour ... white, robin's egg blue, light pink ... peach ...whatever, it too would "pop" off that window and be seen clearer.
As I've said, in my experiences, I've usually treated a window as a dark background, and chose the colours accordingly.
This is my sincere assessment of what I think could make Kenny's window lettering "work" better. After all, a nice window job ought to command attention!
Hope this puts my previous response in clearer focus. I suppose I could have chimed in with an "atta boy" ... but feel my honest input may actually be helpful ... as it was intended.
Cheers! Janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Unfortunately my monitor settings are out of wack. I think I am in need of a new monitor as I have adjusted my settings many times to no avail. Also I think there are ways of letting one know our thoughts of how to improve which are done in a classy way other than 'I am the master of everything' type attitude. We all have different views. We all have different styles. Some people have many different styles. Some seem to be stuck in their same old style over and over. I appreciate anyones effort at handpainting and think the positive could be focused on rather than slam someone with all negative comments. Encouragement is equally as important as criticism.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Sorry folks but I have been bitting my tongue long enough. Cheers Jannete!!!! I find nothing wrong with your helpful post. I find nothing wrong with your presentation of your comments. If someone is going to stick there neck out and ask for comments they better be dam sure they are ready to hear the truth. I went to a fine arts high school and also went to college for graphic design. In both cases our TEACHERS would tear us a new asss when checking over our work. We quickly learned to grow a thick skin. I'm so sick and tired of coming on this portfolio page and watching the asss kissers lining up with the attaboys. This project needed some direction and Jannette gave it some. She didn't say it was crap, she said it needed some help to jump off the window. If this person can take the imformation given and run with it, their next window will be much better. And every window from there on. If I ever post something you think is crap, TELL ME. Don't kiss my asss.
Kenny, all of what Jannette said is right on the money. You may also outline what you have with white to make it stand out. I have done window splashes where I didn't want to use the all the flouresant colors and stuck to much more normal colrs. When doing this I always had to back things up with a light color. Adrianne and Si are good people to talk to about splashes. Just two cents for what it is worth.
[ February 26, 2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Thank you Janette Balogh for the constructive comments. I admit I am a novice but I am willing to learn.
Mr. Larkham, I am sorry to disturb your sensibilities, after all I am trying to learn more about signs and such.
I thought this was a site for beginners as well. I really don't understand the angry tone in your comments. When I put the photo on here, I didn't expect anyone to shower me with praise.
I respect anyone's opinion, especially those who know a lot more than I do.
Thanks Everyone Best Wishes,
Kenny T
-------------------- Kenny Thomas Kenny Signs Deatsville, Al Posts: 12 | From: Deatsville, Alabama | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
To review a job here in this forum is to "stick your neck out" it seems that it is very difficult to convey your sincerity without sounding like a "know it all"
Kenny has shown a willingness to learn by asking our opinion, good on you Kenny! You will grow here, we all need this feedback.
The trick....Don't take this critisism personally, it is never intended as an insult, you will find the most sincere helpful people here, (there is the odd cretin, who will fail to give constructive critique on the odd occasion.....aka.......ME! and I still feel bad about it Barry)
I agree with everything Janet has told you Kenny, and I would like to add the following:
Create a margin around the outside edge of your job, pretend that the window is actually 6'"or so smaller than it actually is and force your self to stay within that area, this will cause you to prioritise the copy so all irrelevant details are left out, and design your artwork so it is more focussed.
I have put together a crude example of what I mean.
Note also that I have highlighted the artwork alittle to help it contrast with the background.
You are on the right track Kenny, you have loads of talent and ability AND you are willing to learn, you cant fail buddy, good onya.
RobC
-------------------- Rob Clark Rob Clark Design 11 Lassig st Moore Park Queensland Australia 0741598092 Posts: 421 | From: Australia | Registered: May 1999
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Don't let this get you down. I don't think anyone is meaing anything negative here as much as just telling you what would make it better.
If you can take comments and criticism you don't need to sweat it. Bring the positive from it.
You'll quickly learn here that you will get fantastic suggestions and all in all it will make you a better artist.
I've only been around about a year and I have learned a great deal of things from who knows how many different people.
The window is very hard to make out. I don't do window splashes but I think what everyone else said about a white outline and some lighter tones would help things a lot.
As noted before, welcome to Letterville!
[ February 26, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Whew, I'm so glad this thread turned around to become what I was hoping it would. Thanks a bunch Rob Larkham and Rob Clark for seeing my intent, and helping me convey it. I was really beginning to feel alone here.
And Kenny, thank you a whole bunch for taking my comments as I had intended them. Don't misunderstand Mr.Larkham's frustrations, they are not directed towards you. I too have had some brutally honest art teachers, and sign mentors in my wake ... actually still blessed with some of them. I count them as blessings because, although they haven't always told me what I've wanted to hear ... they've helped me get better along the way. With regards to this forum, it's difficult to know just exactly what you're gonna say that may rub anyone the wrong way. I do weigh my words carefully, but obviously don't always succeed.
I would like this forum to be a cordial and honest exchange of ideas, views and constructive comments.
If I've come off as some sort of "master or all" I apologize. That's nothing of the sort. I'm just groping along in this profession like anyone else.
Janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
To anyone who thinks I was picking on Kenny, you are wrong. I was defending Jannette and anyone else who gives constructive critisism. I often want to give help to people who post a photo here as it is always a great learning experience to hear from many other people who do the same thing for a living. But to many times constructive critisism is looked upon as distructive. It is never meant to be that way. It's just the way some read it. Sicky sweet attaboys help no one when they need help. No one slammed Kenny. His work is fine but needs some refining to give it punch. Jannette has been a big help to me on this board as well as an inspiration. I was rubbed the wrong way when I saw the way her post was taken. I in no way want to come across as a know it all. I am mediocre at best and always value the comments of people like Jannette.
Kenny I sincerely apologize that all this crap fell on your post.
[ February 26, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I too had some brutal art teachers. Nobody liked them or has fond memories of them. I also had a very wonderful art teacher who didn't do the atta girl thing at all......but had a very nice way of helping. It actually IS possible to be nice while criticizing. Thanks alot Kenny for sharing your work. Also Rob..what a nice re-do. Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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We are all beginners, just some of us have more practice at it than others. I am glad you are open minded enough to post this in this forum and ask for help.
Rob Clark did a great redo to illustrate one way of doing that window. You may find some great books on color and layout in the Letterville Bookshop.
Just remember, we all have thousands of mistakes in us. The more we keep doing the work the faster you will over come those mistakes.
I only wish I had a place like this to get professional advice on jobs I did in the begining.
I understand Rob Larkhams frustration, and I also see Janette's post as right on the money.
So many times when I do windows, my customers will request colors such as red or blue or something non contrasting. Unless it is viewed at night with a well lit room, dark colored lettering will always disappear.
Good luck & keep painting.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Kenny - that wouldn't be a Bail Bondsman's window would it? Hey, I like it - I'm ashamed to say I wouldn't even have attempted it. Good job. P.S. did they pay in cash - just wondering - I've done a couple of jobs for bonding companies & they both paid with greenbacks - - -Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Janette's comments and design input are right on the money. You can't help but get better following them.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I remember in junior High the Art teacher told me that I'd never make it in the Art World. I saw him years later as I was getting into my brand new 1978 Dodge van, completely customized, Rememeber those? It had a full wrap around Airbrushed Mural on it as well, He said to me so what did you do after Highschool, I said I did commercial Art. Had a Bachelors of fine Art. A BFA... I'll let you fill in the blank. Oh then he jumped into his rusted bucket of bolts and drove away.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Hey Carl interesting comment about the bail bonds guys, I did a sign for a bail bonds guy's new bar. He just started peeling hundreds off a big roll.
-------------------- Dennis Goddard
Gibsonton Fl Posts: 1050 | From: Tampa Fl USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Yes my first post. First i am going to quote Rodney King "can t we all just get along". Janette you are right here about the the dark lettering in a dark background window. No offence did you with your sharp eyes happen to notice the white vertical blinds that are open in that window? If the customer (who we all have to get to approve the work we love to do) closes the the vertical blinds on a sunny day then light or white letters will disappear.So with a simple flick of a wrist white letters would then be useless. I don t think there is a rule for any color on windows because no two windows are alike and no two customers want the same thing. When doing any sign or graphic assess the environment it is in. I have done atleast 3 window graphics with dark letters and they worked great. One was a hotel here in town and the reception area was a cream color inwhich sunny light streams into the area all day I used forest green with gold . The second window had metallic silver vertical blinds which apon asking the customer the simple question "How much are these open?" The customer's repley was "Never" So we used impulse blue on silver. And the final one was the same customer in a different location inwhich they had white vertical blinds. Again I used impulse blue in his windows. Four years later I am still changing pricing in you guessed it impulse blue. Ever ask what the customer is trying to do with his or her s graphics? I could see a trendy java house having window lettering that is subdued to only attract the sidewalk traffic (which is typically the place where a person decides hey lets have some cafine). Sure it does not stop a burly trucker at 50 miles an hour but that is not the java house wants to attract for a customer. Sometimes all our great wisdom of signs and graphics gets lost with the need for a payday and the insistance of a customer who has to live with our work day in and out. This is not meant to be a slam of anyone. Kenny you did a great job because I am sure you got payed and that is what counts.
[ February 28, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: paul taylor ]
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Paul, getting paid is not at all the point of this site or the reason people post here for help. I think most here are looking for help or input on their designs and how they can improve.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
well guys sorry to offend you but my banker calls
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
hey dave I see your point do you see mine? just laff and have good time. Hey I did point out that miss nettie was right in her observation.But I had a further observation that no one picked up on there are white vertical blinds in the window that are open. If you are such true artist why confine yourselves to rules. As for making money well what would you feel more rewarded by doing that most fantastic sign and not getting payed for it by a business person who rips you off or getting payed for something of less quality but having no hassles period and having an enjoyable experience with a business person. My point is stop taking yourselves too seriously and dave yes you have the spirit to have a good laff
[ February 28, 2002, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: paul taylor ]
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Paul, money is very important here too. I am just saying both can be achieved at the same time. The blinds is a relevant point, sometimes overlooked when we quote and design. I still like to go with lighter colors, and if I know blinds are to be used I will shade or outline a little heavy so it can be picked up either way.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
well hey dave we do have an understanding for sure. and I am not trying to be funny at all. On a question to you do you use a palm pda in your work ? Because I do have a tip for you to speed help anyone of yuor sign businesses
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
well rob I do know quite a bit about it as I have watched this site for about 6 monthes now . The general permiss is about sharing the skills of the craft with each other to make for a better industry. The thing is I am all for that of coarse. Perhaps because my background is a little different then yours. But my point being did you learn something from my post? If you did great. Becasue I certainly have learned many positive things from you Rob.
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
hey rob I am too and most of us are one man shops. I didnt mean to come off as a heartless capitalist. Like everything with art, business and life in general there are many views and ways to do things . A dean of a community college here asked me to look at the lesson plans for an entrepreneur coarse they were starting here. My response to her was I can t look at these for three reasons. One How can you teach business when the books are never balanced with this college. Two I havent got my degree yet and that is because I am too busy making signs and money and Three entrepreneur is french for Risktaker and I don t take risks or speak french
[ February 28, 2002, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: paul taylor ]
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Kenny T., Welcome to Letterville. First, I'll get back to the original topic...Kenny posted this:
This is a window I lettered a few days back. I know it is not as good as what I have seen here but what do you think?
Kenny, here is what I think. I think you are a novice and are looking for some constructive advice and possibly a pat on the back from some of the people that you have met on this bulletin board. I think you felt pretty darn proud of yourself and of your window. I will give you a big pat on the back. If you stick with this line of work, you will look back on this post and realize that you took a BIG step right here in Letterville.
I think that you got some real good advice prior to this post. You also quickly found out that there are many personalities here on the BB and that things seem to escalate very rapidly at times.
My rule of thumb on windows has more often than not been that the glass is a dark background. In a case where the client might have curtains or blinds, you can cover yourself by using a contrasting outline. This will allow the lettering job to be visible with the blinds open or closed. (this is if they are light colored blinds.)
I don't want to jump into the argument over money makers here. If you look through some of the past posts you'll find plenty of ideas on how to make money, how to deal with customers and perhaps learn a little about what people make on a certain kind of job.
The Mike Stevens book is great. Get it. Also subscribe to SignCraft Magazine and Signs of the Times. Keep an eye on this BB for upcoming Letterhead Meets. Go to one and you'll be hooked. You will not believe what some of these people are capable of doing… and that with a little study, effort, practice and the right tools your skill level will increase steadily.
I have a picture of the first sign that I painted and the first truck that I lettered around here someplace. I do not use them in a portfolio. When I did that early work, I know how hard I tried to make a good sign. (The sign actually lasted for over ten years.) It was plywood, a good grade but not MDO. I primed it and painted it. I lettered it and put some logo on it. At the time, as Dexter says, it was my greatest creation ever. When I look back at that sign and look at the lack of layout and design, the lack of good color combinations… you get the idea. If you don't get the idea now, you will as time goes on.
When I started, there was no Letterville. I had been doing some signs for a couple of years before I even heard about the magazines or meets. With Letterville, your skill level can jump into overdrive with the amount of useful information here.
Now I will spout on the second part of this. It would make much more sense to me if people would write sentences that actually make sense and have a point. I realize that sometimes we hurry though these posts and our replies, but geez! I know that I am as guilty as anyone else at times, but perhaps looking back over the post before posting it would help to get your point across.
Good luck, Kenny.
Yeah, I know I edited this. I forgot to put an "s" on the end of thing above. Well, I'm not perfect either or will ever claim to be. I'm still learning too, Kenny.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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I've really wanted to call it a day on this thread, but since you've addressed me directly, I'll oblige you with the reply you deserve to a valid observation.
If you don't mind, I'll sidestep your sarcasm and take you for your word that you meant no offense with it. Still, I'll seize the opportunity to have fun with it.
I did see the vertical blinds in the background initially , and it had nothing to do with my eyes being sharp, but merely that they were open. Both my eyes, and the blinds that is.
With the same twist of a wrist that lettering would disappear and reappear in either way depending on either colour scheme. My suggestion here was based on the blinds in their "open state of condition". I did opt to forego addressing them as closed. You make an excellent point bringing that up tho. While I mentioned "white", I also emphasized lighter colours, .... actually listing off afew. Robin's egg blue, Lt pink, peach .... etc. It becomes a matter of hues, and as others mention, outlines, backdrops and such help arrive at the best solutions in any given situation. I suppose I could have given a more detailed explanation in my initial answer, so I'll apologize now if necessary for not taking the time to do so.
Personally, I do talk to my customer's about any of their given situations before making design decisions, and before pricing anything. Even over the phone, one of the questions I bring up with regards to window lettering has to do with drapes, blinds, and lighting. I've been accused, and am also rightfully guilty of perhaps being almost too throurough (if that's possible) ... and yet still miss obvious stuff anyways. (blows that whole "master of everything" thing to hell doesn't it?!)
Your point was excellent, and worth a mention.
I don't know about anyone else, but this thread sure has been a learning experience for me. I've enjoyed and appreciated all the input for all the good I could reap from it. Call me a relentless optimist.
For now "miss nettie" has got to get to work, for the pure passion of it ... and the paycheck!
genuine smiles, Janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
well to tell you the truth I was putting in my two canadain cents worth (a 1.5 metric cents in the united states)after all you voiced your opinion and I voiced an valid observation. The thing is you are right Totally about light letters on windows absolutely. 100 percent on the money. That is my general rule of thumb too and it perfect makes sense . I was a lighting designer for many years for rock groups and I do know something about the color temperature of the sun. The sun on clear days is usually about 5600 degress kalvin (no not the little peeing guy). With your background being the window and the room behind the window you have no more then 3200 degreees kalvin. So the scientific reason why dark letters don't stand out on dark windows even with lighting on the inside of the building is because 5600 degrees kalvin defeats 3200 degress kalvin all the time. Now when you have a reflective surface inside the room with the graphics on the window ;IE a cream painted room in a south facing window like I had; the lighter color windows disappear. Hey the best solution is just to outline the light letters dark around light or light around dark as was posted by a wise man here. As for the Miss Nettie sorry I was not politicallly correct and yes I am truly sorry to you no sarcasim at all. Usually I use the term MS. and I feel that is a nice way to show respect. Again please this is no slam I am sure you have great consultations with your customer because from what I see your work is very good
[ February 28, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: paul taylor ]
-------------------- paul taylor pictougraph images new glasgow, nova scotia paultaylor42@hotmail.com Posts: 80 | From: nova scotia | Registered: Feb 2002
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-------------------- Rob Clark Rob Clark Design 11 Lassig st Moore Park Queensland Australia 0741598092 Posts: 421 | From: Australia | Registered: May 1999
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