posted
this is a sign i just completed for a client in atlanta. the fellow did a search on google for antique signs and found Flying Biscuit Antique Sign Company
25"x50"
the sign features double gilded silver leaf lettering (distressed in 2 stages) beat copper corners/patina. with a touch of variegated gold leaf on the top flourish. it is back and outside framed with 1"x3" pine stock and 3/4 round inset moulding bought from home depot. the signface is made out of 1/4" Luan.
all paints and glazes are water-based except the 1-shot fast goldsize.
what was in my kit? Basic Colors (Flat Acrylic House Paint) Behr Crackle (water based) Behr Water-Based Polyurethane (clear Matte) Patina solution (vinegar, salt and ammonia) Scumble Glaze(a mixture of Behr Water-Based Polyurethane tinted with house paint) Fast Dry Gold size steel wool different grades of sandpaper mack water brushes sea sponge, old rags(torn up t-shirts) good stiple brush liquid nail / finishing nails
i worked from pen plotted paper patterns on the 0ld 4-B, perforated with the electro-pounce. (Ouch!!!)
don't be afraid to "work it"
do an antique sign today, lots of fun!
[ January 27, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
i have to give credit where credit is due... typestyles by letterheadfonts.com flourishes and animal clipart by mr. jack wills / signdna / designer's cafe
i mix basic colors from my palette just as i did back in my outdoor advertising days.
all color decisions are made on the fly from a basic customer's color suggestion.
i try my best to visualize what these suggested colors might look like after years of exposure.
posted
Very nice job there Mark. Youve became an expert on these type of signs. They really look aged.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Just one little critique cause I know you won't mind. I think I would have had the animals facing into the layout. With them facing different directions it's making my eyes want to go in opposite directions. Who was the actor with the crazy eyes that did that?
posted
Nice job MF. Not sure about the color combo tho. Are the cow and horse stencils?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Yes it is such a pleasure to see your work. Everything you do is so wonderfully done. Simply exquisite. You are just the best MF. I don't think I have ever seen signs done so well. My eyeballs are impressed. My jaw is in awe.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I gotta agree with you Cheryl. These antique signs are wonderful. They are also very popular item with the public these days. With the sign biz so crowded, we should all be exploring new markets for our talents.
Terry's comments caught my attention. I can remember someone making the same point with me years ago. It's not a big deal, but it's always stuck with me.
When at all possible, try to have your cartoons, animals or other graphics looking at the message. This leads the viewer's eye to the message rather than away. This would also apply to renderings of a vehicle on a sign. Whenever possible, try to have the graphic moving towards the message.
Now having said all that, I often wonder if any of the public ever actually realize these design tricks. This sort of attention to detail is one sign that you may be a Letterhead. Nice sign Mark. Keep them coming.
[ January 28, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
thanks nettie and adrienne for the kind words. i love this type of work.
mike meyer and dennis gerathy have been the major influences. after seeing dennis give his workshop at mazeppa, the things i saw lay dormant for a couple of years until me and mike started talking over the phone and via e-mail. about the art of antique signs.
i am proud to report both me and mike have sold several signs via the internet. markfair.com/flyingbiscuit
posted
Cheryl.I don't mind sharing my interpetation of this sign......what looks like a mere simple cow is actually a pretty advanced mathematical layout trick. Now first, as far as them facing away or at each other,i guess that depends on the angle you're facing when you look at them...they merely look like they are going away from the main elements on the sign b/c of the points they are facing. Like all point sources, gravitational forces increase and decrease as a factor of the distance squared. When the path of the object is not in a direct line with gravitational pull, forces are based on the sine or cosine value of the geometric angle involved......also, when aerodynamics of the object in question are also factored in,predicting motion becomes far more difficult. Now to actually see this,we must draw a circle around the horse,another around the cow and the final one around the top design element,all while paying close attention to the triangular relationship that this creates amongst the three. The problem is to determine the great circle distance between two points given their latitudes and longitudes. Let 1 and 2 be the latitudes of the two points and 1 and 2 Their longitudes. The basis for the determination of the angular separation of the two points on the great circle which connects them is the Law of Cosines for plane triangles. The Law of Cosines states that for the above triangle
a2 = b2 + c2 - 2bc*cos(A) When the points are on a great circle this formula reduces to: a2 = 2r2(1 - cos(A)) or cos(A) = (1 - (a/r)2/2) Therefore if we can find the straight line (Euclidean distance between the two points) we can find their great circle angular separation A. The Euclidean distance between the two points can be found from their Euclidean coordinates, (x1, y1, z1) and (x2, y2, z2), by the formula a2 = (x2 - x1)2 + (y2 - y1))2 + (z2 - z1)2 The Euclidian coordinates are given by the transformation x = cos()(rcos()) y = sin()(rcos()) z = rsin() Thus (a/r)2 = (cos(2)cos(2) - cos(1)cos(1))2 + (sin(2)cos(2) - (sin(1)cos(1))2 + (sin(2) - sin(1))2 When the squared terms in the above expression are expanded we get from the first term, in addition to the cross product term, terms of the form cos2(i)cos2(i) for i= 1 and 2. These combine with terms from the second squared term of the form sin2(i)cos2(i) to give terms of the form, cos2(i). These, in turn, combine with the terms from the third squared term to give (1+1). Thus, (a/r)2 = 2 - 2cos(2)cos(1)cos(2)cos(1) - 2cos(2)cos(1) - 2sin(2)sin(1) Thus the formula for the cosine of the great circle angular separation reduces to: cos(A) = cos(2)cos(1)cos(2)cos(1) + sin(2)sin(1)cos(2)cos(1) + sin(2)sin(1) With rearrangement this can be written as: cos(A) = [cos(2)cos(1) + sin(2)sin(1)]cos(2)cos(1) + sin(2)sin(1) The term within the brackets can also be expressed in terms of the difference of longitudes. Hence the standard formula for great circle angular separation: cos(A) = sin(2)sin(1) + cos(2)cos(1)cos(2 - 1) For values of A close to zero the above formulae is highly sensitive to rounding errors in the computation. A better form (developed by Sinnott) for small values of A is:
sin(A/2) = [sin2((2-1)/2) + cos(2)cos(1) sin2((2-1)/2)]1/2. The Area of Great Circle Triangles The method of computing the area of great circle triangles on a sphere is amazingly simple. The area of such a triangle is proportional to the amount by which the sum of the angles of the triangle in radians is in excess of . The area is also proportional to the square of the radius of the sphere. The formula is easily illustrated. Consider a right triangle with its base on the equator and its apex at the north pole, at which the angle is /2. The sum of the angles is 3/2 so the excess is /2. Such a triangle takes up one eighth of the surface of its sphere, whose area is 4r2 where r is the radius. The area of the triangle is thus one eighth of the area of the whole sphere or (/2)r2. The formula checks out for this case.
Now,this brings us to the area inbetwen the circles called the area of the loon/lune.The area of a lune is proportional to the angle defining the lune. The area is a lune is the same proportion of the area of the sphere as the angle is a proportion of 2 radians; i.e., Area of lune = [(angle of lune)/2] area of sphere = [(angle of lune)/2][[(4r2] = 2(angle of lune)r2 where r is the radius of the sphere If the unit of area is taken to be r2 then we can say the area of a lune is twice the angle of the lune....thus its the lune that makes the cow and horse face in diff directions.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Say now. That's the spirit Gavin! Because we ALL know it is not just your typical sign. It is made with special mud or somethin to that effect. The paint is special too. AlaBAMa style don'cha know. The lines were drawn with precise detail, paying special attention to the horse and cow. Now, MF, was any type of special tool involved? Like say a paper pattern, or mahl stick. Or did you just let er rip.
Yes sir, we can all learn. But boy them AlabaMA boys type slow.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Well..i try to only post things that are helpful here,and if a few simple mathematical layout tricks can get put out there,i don't mind sharing....thats why this site is here,so we can share tips like this and all rock.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well I sher do appreciate your helpful hints Gavin. Fry mah hide, this is sho' fun. We are really learning now. Oh and sharing. Mike Pipes honey you rock too bubba.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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what ya say we bury the hatchett here and now. let's just agree to disagree. we both have sent some nasty e-mails and for the life of me i can't remember how this garbage got started.
i apologize for anything i have said that has made you angry.
now let's go on with our lives and let this foolishness rest.
my only intention with this post was to show what i was into as far as signs.
posted
Bubba.... the main thing is to have fun remember?
Apology accepted.
And thank goodness, because my ass is getting mighty tired. All the coffee is wearing off.
I do remember how it got started. I didn't kiss your ass, and got real tired of your hate mail. Stop that, and I will stop being a smart ass. It is all very simple.
Again Thanks for the apology. Now about your sign, I think you could take some hints from Mike Languein and put some color in there. But thanks for sharing it anyway.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Thank You Mark and Cheryl. These feuds are an emotional roller coaster ride for all of us that care about both of you. Nuff said.
This type of sign is very different from what we usually do. It's custom made for a specific customer's home. A sign has now turned into a piece of art instead of a source of information.
Let's face it. Many of us are having a tough time doing what we have always done. Technology and other factors have changed our business. Many of you are frustrated and angry about the situation. The new direction Mike Meyers and Mark have embarked is interesting to watch.
Letterheads have a special passion for their work that most others cannot relate to. This should give us some sort of advantage. It's time we began to explore new markets for our special talents instead of doing what everyone else is doing.
Let's get a post going on the main board that encourages everyone to think outside the box. What are some of the new things we can use our existing talents to get involved in?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Hey it's me again. Mark, I forgot to say I apologize too! I honestly hope you will fogive me for being such a smart ass. Your work is always fun to see.
posted
Mark, VERY COOL! I like the 'established 01' I need to know:1901 or 2001 Sign looks like 1901 but you ain't that old! You keep trying to make signs...yer gettin the hang of it.LOL You da man.
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Kewl Mark! I gotta try that again, I did one years and years ago, but my aging technique involved a rusty chain and some dirt, and a few run overs with an old International pick-up. lol
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Mark, I have always enjoyed antiques and especially these types that you do with the Flying Biscuit company. Since I was three year old I can remember my Mom and Dad taking me to antique stores, also auctions where the funny fasttalking auctioneer could have doubled as a modern day rapper, lol. I used to stare at the old signs and the labels on the old boxes and items, which caught my eye through the years. I can't tell the difference. Your work is super- you have carved a niche for the rest of us to admire or learn the technique. It isn't a big deal about the animals not looking at each other, but I did have a teacher say something to me about that once. All in all, with the beauty of the sign, it is only noticeable to the sign folks probably. On that occasion it was noticed after I had finished the sign and I just added a few extra animals in a smaller scale that did face the sign to balance it out. Your work is indeed outstanding.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Steve, I think you are right on..in your comments......both about diversification.....and communication....(With and to each other)...
Just check out my web site for SOME of the various things I do to make ends meet in this screwed up economy.....
I am glad to see Mark and Cheryl "Bury the Hatchet" so to speak..and not in each others A**.
My humble opinion of the Antique Sign in question..is ."it is Right On As Well" You see I was living way back then and I was operating a small Sign Shop on the edge of the "Void" And that was the way we did them back then..Even to the Colors..........."Actually the Horse is running away.....the Cow is standing her ground !!!)
Another small observation on my part..........
(Maybe the Cow and Horse were somewhat Pi**ed off after having words !!!" he he he he
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I'm sure no authority on any of this, just another hack sign painter trying to make a buck. These are fun to do. Mark, I like your sign, for whatever that's worth - I like all the F Biscuit samples. The big question for me is "What did you get for it?". Most of the faux antiques I've made are small; 1'x2' +/- -- the only large one was about 28"x44" and sold on eBay for $50 - and it cost $26 to send it, ha ha - live & learn - eBay is a crap shoot. Here goes an attempt at posting a couple pics... I wonder though -- are the ducks heading into the sign or out of it? Half & Half? Wow - that took 20 minutes to load each pic. Anyway, details; outside dim. =18"x27", pine frame crackled with either American Accents Crackle Creations or Plasti Coat Cracklin (2 part spray cans - white over gold) as is the moon. Substrate is 1/8" Masonite. Harvest Moon is convexed grey/white tempera over water based glue, the other lettering is japan scrubbed down with Comet, then the whole mess was rubbed with umber artist oils and wiped up.
[ January 28, 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have been looking for a post..I believe it was yours..with a sign about "Rust Pruf" metal sign blanks.or something like that.. If it was you will you post again or direct me to it. Thanks Shep'
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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I don't know if it's from growing up around antiques or what but I am so much more interested in this type of stuff than even thinking about digital printers, scanners etc.
I love this stuff and really want to learn to do it. I think it's just a matter of getting out the paints and experimenting.
I was also wondering about pricing. It seems like a lot of work and wonder just how profitable it really could be. I think using the waterbased system would really cut down on production time. Collecting old wood wherever you can find it would cut down on material costs.
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Mike, I can't access the site either. Shep'
-------------------- Arvil Shep' Shepherd Art by Shep' -------- " Those who dance are thought to be mad by those who cannot hear the music " Posts: 1281 | From: Mt Airy NC | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
No, A -- I can't get it to work either -- what an ordeal I'm having today with these @#!!*&%)( sites!!! Grrr stalling, freezing. disconnecting, malfunctioning . . . makes my head hurt
[ January 28, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think I would have had the animals facing into the layout. With them facing different directions it's making my eyes want to go in opposite directions. Who was the actor with the crazy eyes that did that? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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