posted
Just when you thought the clipart issue was over.
You see many requests for certain logos. Let's say Harley Davidson. Now, my corporate logo disc has the logo. Do the makers of this CD have the authorized right to sell me this logo? I have a real hunch that the answer is no! Do they have the right to sell most of the logos in the book? We're talking thousands of logos. I think they would have to purchase a license from H.D., which would be a serious chunk of change, if even possible. I know Harley Davidson wouldn't allow me to cut a vinyl H.D. logo, yet they approved it to be included on the CD's that we buy? I don't think so.
I think the real infringment happens when we think that we purchase the authorization to use the logo from someone who wasn't authorized to sell it to you. The next infringment happens when someone passes it to their buddy....lastly it ends up on some guys window.
Mayeb I'm wrong, but I just don't think the guys pumping out these Corporate logo cd's have every company on board. My OCA catalogue actually says "for authorized use only". Are they authorized to sell it to me? I thought I read somewhere that H.D. didn't license anyone to reproduce H.D. merchandise, let alone pass out the logo.
What do you think?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Harley Davidson, is like Disney in that they strongly protect thier branding. And if I rembember correctly, even thier dealerships are not allowed to go outside and do thier own marketing unless authorized to do so. I do have a funny stoy though, I was working on the signage for the Disneyland Hotel 2 year ago, and I needed the logo, I got an authorized copy of the logo from thier marketing department, and it was useless when blown up full size. I ended up getting it off that Russian website, and building "Hotel" off the lousy logo they sent and the good logo I found! Someone saw the nice logo all cleaned up and asked me to supply them with it for thier archives, so maybe it's not so bad having the logos around. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I'm not a lawyer, but I would almost bet that the second the Corproate Logo vendors click on the "Scan" button on their computer, they are breaking the law. All those logos are copyrighted and trademarked to keep other people from scanning them. I am sure the corporations who own the actual rights to the logos would like to keep 100% control over who has their outlines, how they get them, and how they use them.
With that being said, I know there are quite a few of the CDs on the market. I know of one seller who quit after a couple of the corporations jumped all over him for including their logo. They all have bigger lawyers than most of us!
I personally can't see how the corporate clip art venders have the right to make the CD, considering all the issues. But, maybe they have a relative who owns a big law firm.
Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You know, that is a good point. And I have a letter in the front of my logo book we received several years ago:
To Whom It May Concern:
This law firm represents General Motors Corporation, Fila U.S.A., Inc., Levi Strauss & Co., Nike, Inc., Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Time Warner Entertainment Company, L.P., The Coca-Cola Company, Bausch & Lomb Incorporated, and Atlantic Richfield Company (hereinafter aggregately known as “Markholders”). The Markholders have an ongoing investigation into the unauthorized use of the trademarks and house marks. As a result of this investigation, we learned that you have purchased or otherwise may possess a copy of the Smart Logos International CD produced by Smart Designs, Inc. You should know that this CD contains code for the reproduction of the Markholders’ trademarks and the house marks as better shown on attachment “A”. This code was included on the CD without the Markholders’ authorization. Further, the use and recreation of the Markholders’ Trademarks and house marks through the Smart Logos International CD is an infringement of their exclusive rights and a violation fo the Federal Trademark Act (Lanham Act), as well as state law. None of the Markholder’s trademarks or house marks may be utilized or recreated without the Markholders express written permission. Further, this letter is intended to put you on notice of this fact and to let you know that each of the Markholders will vigorously pursue any unauthorized use of their exclusive trademarks.
Respectfully,
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 750 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
All of which begs the question; if these logos/trademarks are being used to advertise these companies products, then what is their complaint?
It all sounds more like some sort of sweetheart deal between these companies and whoever does their advertising/signage, to the exclusion of the rest of us. In some circles this would be called "restraint of trade." Let's not get into the ethical issues of such---we all know that anything can be legal; but ethical or fair is a whole 'nother ball of wax. We also know that ethics is not a high priority in the corporate hierarchy these days.
Most of us don't have the monetary means to fight this sort of thing, even though I would bet a dollar to a stale doughnut that a hell of a case could be made on this restraint of trade angle, and possibly even a free speech issue.
It has been said more than once in legislatures on all levels--"just pass the law, and let the courts fight out the legality of said law". More than one piece of crap legislation (er, sorry) has been overturned--- but it took a lot of time and bucks to do it. Who among us has that kind of resources?
Last thought---for now--- why is it that this country has more lawyers per square foot than any other in the Western world?
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Bill, These big companies own their artwork and the use of it. That is plain and simple. They filed all the paperwork to become corporations, they did all the work to design the logo, promote their business and they do have the right to control who does work with their copyrighted logos. I am not defending them as much as seeing that part is very fair.
Turn it around. Say you started a company, went national, spent a fortune getting your name and logos recognized. Then someone else scans your logo, puts it on a disk and before you know it, other people are using your logo for who knows what. You also find out that some other company is selling disks with your logo on it. You probably wouldn't you want everybody in the world having your logo on their computer. (some people say that even bad advertising is good advertising, but that has to be put into perspective)
There are a lot of companies, including the Olympics and all sports franchises, who license the use of their logos to a limited number of production houses, and only on approved products. Isn't that fair? I don't see the problem here. The vendors pay to get to be an approved franchise supplier, and pay a royalty to the franchise for every piece produced or sold.
I don't see a restriction of trade issue here. Just corporate business, well within the law.
Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Case in point....I just got back from quoting a price for some sign work at a Good Guys Store!
The manager asked what I would need to reproduce thier logo. I told him that anything with their logo on it would be OK to make my pounce pattern. He then asked how could I do that...I said with a pencil. The look on his face was something else...so I explained that I would draw a grid on the logo and a grid on the pattren paper then draw it in, to size. He finally laughed and said..."You have had to been doing this before computers!"
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Si I'm getting a mental picture of you scrawling out the GoodGuys logo on your driveway.
I remember seeing your house when I visited my friends down the street or paid my rent, being that I lived in La Mirada for most of my life.Do you still have the shotgun you terrorized my freinds with Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I have purchased a few corporate logo cd's myself, one from OCA and one from Logo Art (who sent it from somewhere in Switzerland, I think). They have the legal responsibility to get permission to use the logo's they sell. When I purchased the cd from OCA I asked about specific automotive logos I needed, they said yes they were on the disc, once the disc got here, the logo's were missing. I called to ask where they were and was told I needed to send them written premission from the corporation in question and they would email them to me. When I asked the same question at Logo Art they just sent them out. American corporate trademarks and copyrights are not enforced or legal in some countries, therefore companies operating there are free from prosecution.
Being somewhat concerned because we sell logo screens for pinstriping, I asked our patent lawyer. He said that there are a number of ways to obtain this permission, the easiest is to send a registered letter. If there is no response, that is a form of permission because permission wasn't denied. He also said that the chances of an individual being sued for trademark violations were slim depending on the circumstances. If you use Lincoln Mercury's logo on a sign for a dealer, or in an ad for a dealer or on a Lincoln Mercury product, no problem. If you take their logo, print up a couple of hundred t-shirts and sell them on Ebay, problems. It is a matter of quanity and intent. If a franchisee asks you to create a sign for them with their franchise's name and logo on it, they have given you permission to reproduce the logo, therefore there is no violation on your part. A corporation is not going to sue the signmaker, they are going to sue your customer, they are the one benifiting from the violation.
Ok, I'm done, I didn't know I had so much to say on this subject
posted
With all due respect, Mike, I see your point(s), but this is an issue on which you and I will never agree.
To start, I think perhaps you are seeing this from the point of view of one who has put time, effort and money into your collections of CD art elements, and then seen bootleg copies turn up all over the place. I remember you telling the "don't buy, I can burn you a copy" story.
Point is, I don't think the use of corporate logos falls into the same arena at all. For openers, why are the CD makers not pursued by the corporations for making the CDs in the first place? Next, why should I or anyone else have to pay these corporations to use their logo in an ad or sign advertising their product, when it is to their benefit as much as mine? Please, don't hit me with "because it is the law."
The argument that bad advertising is better than no advertising is IMLTHO specious at best. It is right up there with a bad law (ordinance) is better than no law at all. I am living with one of those bad ordinances at present-- and have for about the last ten years. Yes, get the law changed, but you don't know the twits around here.They will preserve their precious "viewshed" at all costs.
About the only misuse of corporate logos I have seen is the Calvin bit, doing his thing on the logo of your choice. The next closest was when some guy reroofed an old barn with various colored shingles so that the Snoopy character on his doghouse was what one saw. No money, no advertising, pure entertainment for passersby on I-88. Schulz's lawyers got wind of it, and I leave it to you what happened next. Reroofed to read Dog-gone and the dates, after suit was threatened.
And people wonder why lawyers are so unpopular, especially the lawyers themselves.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Ok....so whats the difference between these Logo CD companies are doing and the all the recent font and clip art discs which have work that were originally in Dover collections,Atkinson Books,Print Artist($49.99,great little program)or other places?? Legality and assumed persmission aside,it's still profiting from work you didn't do.... correct? Isn't that what the bigger argument should be about??
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Bill, I agree with you. Any time we need a corporate logo it is used to advertise this particular company i.e. ball field signs. And the only misuse I have seen is the use of Calvin. Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2623 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Bill and JoAnna have a very logical grasp on this. It seems very logical that regardless of trademark laws, most corporations don't really want to open this "can of worms" because of the potential headache. There is a large difference between a person using a corporate logo for an add, or a sign that would promote the company that owns the logo, and someone printing off t shirts for profit as JoAnna stated.
Imagine you were the marketing director for Dominos Pizza. Would you want to have to answer the phone every five minutes and approve logo usage for sign shops, news papers and graphic artists nationwide, so that your logo can be used to announce deals, sales, and new stores? Wouldn't you look at someone making a logo CD as quite a time and money saver for your company? Worse yet, if everyone had to go to the trouble to buy, or get permission EVERY time they used a corporate logo, the practice would not only diminish, but the odds of logos being incorrectly reproduced would increase dramatically.
I'm sure most corporations don't have a problem, unless their logos begin appearing on products that were bootlegged, or on merchandise being sold by unlicensed vendors, such as clothing, retail sales of stickers, key-fobs, etc.....
Harley Davidson is very strict with their logo, but even when people to produce unlicensed merchandise for profit, they are still building the Harley Davidson name. Is there really that much damage done?
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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There may or may not be harm being done but it isn't putting some jingle in Harley Davidson's pocket.
I see both sides to Mike's and Bill's point. Both were presented in an excellent manner. I am just not sure what side of the fence I am on with this. I am sure that more thought is in order.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Anyway... Ive done many pieces for may different co's and used theier logos. In every case I got thier logo from thier website or just by calling for it.
Case in Point >..Radio Shack Go to thier site and you will find whatever you need in many different flavors of thier logo.
One job for General Foods (now called rj nabisco) . I called thier marketing office and not only did they send me a box full of stuff, they offered to help if i needed it.
I never have or never knew anyone who has been bothered by any company when using thier stuff in the correct manner.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
all we need is one more sign guy's opinion so here goes.
if i were doing signage for the local harley dealer, then by all means i would use their logo.
if one is making profit off of a company's image, i.e. producing signage or items from harley's trademark, then i would not mass produce this image for my own personal financial gain.
posted
I think there are two times we can safely use corporate logos:
#1. IF a company representing the products requests us to do a sign, design, layout, window, ad, or similar item for them.
#2. IF the people selling corporate logo CDs ask for, and get permission to distribute their logos.
That covers a lot of ground in our day to day uses, right? As Mark M. Kottwitz's post illustrates (about the third one down from the top), not all corporations approve of the distribution of their logos. So, if #2 is NO, then you can probably still get a legal logo directly from the company, if you are doing work for them, or one of their franchise holders. I suspect many of them have a FTP download site specifically for that purpose, including some design guidelines for its use (PMT color specs, and so forth)
Darla does a lot of sponsor banners for the booster's club at high school gym, many of which have corporate logos. I have no problem using them if the local franchise orders the banners, and finding a pre-built vectored outlined version is great. I understand the need for the CDs, but I can understand the corporate stance on it, too. I suspect there are some corporations that welcome the distribution of their artwork. Some don't.
Here's an interesting example I saw today. A "SummaDirect" catalog came in showing Summa plotters and printers. On pages 3, 4, 5 and 12, there are plotters with the "Walt Disney Pictures" logo cut and weeded coming out of them. A few other pages show the Saks Fith Avenue logos. I wonder if Summa got permission from either company to use their logos? Does it mean that Disney and Saks endorses and uses their equipment, or was it on one of the logo CDs and Summa just used them because they looked nice?
To Bill Preston, Actually, some of the Logo CD vendors have been pursued (sued), by big corporations. One company had their records seized, shipments stopped, and letters were sent out to all people who had ever purchased the CDs. I saw one of the letters, but had not purchased the CD and didn't get one. It only took two or three corporations to break the bank of the small company. The letter read much like Mark M. Kottwitz's post, as I remember it, but was from another law firm representing another company.
I don't think anyone is splitting legal hairs here. About the only loophole here that I can see is when the logo CD sellers put the disclaimer "for authorized use only" on their products. To me it looks like they broke all kinds of laws when they scanned their corporate logo to begin with.
I'll quietly bow out of this discussion and suggest that all of us consult trademark lawyers before venturing too far into that world.
Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think the original point I was trying to head toward was... It seems to me that a signmaker usually (in most cases) has a legit reason to use the logo. In most cases it's for a dealer of that product or maybe a franchise of the larger corporation.
Now it seems logical to me that the corporate CD companies are clearly making a profit off selling the logos of these compainies, over and over without legal permission. Isn't that where it becomes wrong?
Now with the recent clipart trading flames, it got me thinking about the corparate logos. Are we wrong for giving someone a copy of the Home Depot file that we payed for from our corporate CD that isn't legal in the first place? Are we screwing the corporated logo maker? who is in turn screwing Home Depot by profiting from their logo?
I think from the Clipart discussion I was able to conclude that we are purchasing the "right" to use any of the items on the clipart cd's. What right are we purchasing from the corporate logo makers?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I thought I was through on this post, but I had planned on mentioning one other small point to the benefit of the corporation's point of view.
Many of us have done work with a franchise holder such as Best Western, Xerox, Century 21 and so forth. Sometimes, the franchise holder will give you their "Design Standards" booklet (sometimes several inches thick). That booklet will show all the approved sign shapes, colors, combinations, letterstyles, and usually a few pages of ad slicks or PMTs. Some even have stock one column ads for newspapers and so forth. Maybe some now even have a CD containing the vector outlines. The point here is the corporation expects a common design standard across the country and world, and the book offers that protection. If and when their vector outlines show up in unauthorized logo CDs, they are not able to supply all the additional necessary information. Often, you only get a black and white image in vector formats. I am sure there are better companies selling logo CDs than others, but I have seen some outlines that were only close, but not exact, reproductions of the originals. I'd prefer to get the outlines directly from the corporatate source when possible.
I would bet Steve would allow readers and visitors to make a post announcing a link to any corporatation's site which makes their logos available for "authorized use". Maybe he, or another Letterville citizen, could even build a page containing all those links for all to use when needed. No one would be breaking a "Letterville Law" or a common law if the corporation makes the outlines available and people go directly to the sites to get them.
I believe a couple of people already mentioned a few corporations in posts above.
I need to go fishing! Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I recently did work for Blockbuster. The official corporate logo & standards cd which they gave me was all but useless for signwork. I got the useable copy off my oca disk.
In my opinion, a compilation of registered corporate trademarks (which are, b.t.w., on the public record) is not an infringement of anyone's legal ownership rights. Unless and until, as JoAnna points out, someone misuses the mark for personal gain.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
Instagram: Purcell Woodcraft
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 902 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
i'm not sure, but i expect that the people selling collections of corporate logos are NOT selling you the license to use the logo. they probably don't have the license - you get the license (permission) in the form of a contract from your customer (a dealer, franchise, office, etc).
For instance, if Hallmark started selling Harley mugs, then Hallmark has permission to use the HD logo on a sign saying "All HD mugs now on sale". Your contract with the store is your permission to use that logo.
you are giving money to the people who created the logo collection because they have done all the "collecting" for you. you are paying them for burning the CD, making the booklet, alphabetizing, or whatever. this is a fee for "convenience" and NOT a fee for usage license.
i've never bothered, because i've been able to find the logos - the most current versions --on the corporate websites. (I've noticed that the russian logo website has a lot of out of date logos).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Rotary International has a 4way test that I think applies to this corporate logo thing. the test is as follows, Of all the things we think say and do, 1. Is it the Truth? 2. Will It build good will and Better friendship? 3. Is it fair to all concerned? 4. Will it be beneficial to all concerned.
If you apply this to the corporate logo question, I have no doubt that you will never have a problem. Bill
Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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