posted
I seem to find it quite a challenge to gild larger areas. I inevitably have to gild twice. Is it just me?
On the first gild I seem to get alot of holidays in the form of cracks where the gold tears, or where one lay of gold intersects another beside it.
I was using loose leaf gold this time around, on the raised portions of a sandblasted hdu sign. Thought I waited on the size at the right time, but now wonder if I needed to gild it sooner. I am also wondering if patent gold may have been easier, and offers less waste.
Is it pretty standard to have to gild twice?
Give me a clue here.
No ... this isn't my first gold job. But I seem to get reacquainted with these same frustrations each time I do anything extensive with gold.
Thanks a bunch for any feedback, and encouragement.
posted
Nettie...what did you use for a size? Could be a little of both.
For surface leafing...patent leaf is preferred because you can press it into the size.
Gilding a lil bit sooner will give you more tack....I gild as soon as my knuckle squeeks (on a test piece) If it is a large area...I make a stripe on a test piece before I start laying on the size, again when I am 1/2 way done, and again when I finish. The test piece must be prepared the same as what you are gilding, on a vehicle, make the test stripes off to the side (easily cleaned off with thinner when you are done).
Hope this helps!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Si, I ordered some patent gold to do the second gild. I used fast dry size because it just takes so long here in florida to gild on the slow stuff. Seriously ... about a week! And I just didn't want to invest that kind of time with so much to do on it.
I started with One Shot fast dry for a portion of the job. Then on another separate portion of the sign I ran low and had to switch size. I ended up with Lucos fast dry because it was all my supplier carried.
Thanks a bunch for the feedback Si! I do think I may have waited too long.
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Wayne, hahahaa, don't let me get you nervous.
Last night Dave came walking into the shop and saw me burnishing away with gold flakes flying all over the place. I, feeling exasperated with the holidays, said something to the effect of "why do I do this to myself, next time I even think of designing a gold job, please bring me to my senses!!!"
His reply was "but they always end up looking so good!"
So anyway ... I guess I'll keep enduring the frustrations, for the "eye jewelry" at the end. (as well as the paycheck!)
Just got to always keep in mind the frustrations when initially pricing the job!
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I'm no gold expert by a long shot but did work with it quite a bit years ago on 18" sprint car numbers. If the leaf is tearing it's not because you waited too long, it will tear just as easily with a strong tack, probably tear easier in fact. It's pretty hard to lay loose leaf and not get tears , the key word here is work l o o s e !!!!! Breathe deep and relax. Use some of that yoga Patent leaf might be the way to go but I absolutely hate it. Once you get used to loose leaf patent is sooooooooooooo slow, the material saved is used up in time difference, especially if your shop rate is over ten dollars an hour. Plus you can get a much better burnish from loose. Whenever I get a crack I just lay a little gold on it. There are almost always going to be a few holidays but resising shouldn't ever be needed unless the holiday is in the size itself. I hear ya on the slow taking a week, does the same thing here, the humidity is the culprit.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I'm thinking that humidity won't be a factor for me on this one because I've been running a dehumidifier in here since last Thursday or Friday. So far it has pulled about 13 gallons(49.2 litres) out of this 480sq.ft. building and I'm surprised that we weren't drowning in here. The humidity in the shop was 32% this morning and it's taking much longer now for the reservoir to fill.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Janette, I use patent gold because I'm used to it - with the 1-shot size, 45 minutes should do it for tacking. As you're gilding, use a bare sheet of the gold liner paper and lay it over your gild. The holidays are very noticeable thru the paper and you can touch-up as you go. Don't be afraid to press into the size with your finger on the back of the paper. I then take one of those make-up brushes (stolen from my wife) and kinda swirl the loose gold around, then vacuum. Everybody has their own way of doing it, but this seems to work for me. Good luck, and I have no doubt it will be another masterpiece.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Janette, where I live in upstste NY, we see 90%+ humidity all summer long, and I haven't had that bad of a problem getting slow size to set, (48 hrs max). If your slow size is taking a long time, maybe it is to thick. Try laying it down very thin, and adding about 25% one shot enamel might help. I personally think slow size gives you a longer "window" to work in and might help with reducing the voids by keeping the tack all that much longer. I used to use loose leaf exclusivly thinking I would get a better burnish, or luster, but after doing some testing, I saw no noticible difference between the two side by side, and I think I was getting a lot of waste. I think patent is much easier to work with, and is easy to fill in the voids by lightly rubbing the paper with scraps of gold on to to fill in the voids. I hope this helps, Good luck, Bob K.
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1899 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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Steve, I a going to be camping in the Cape Cod area in about a week at the Shawme Crowell campsite near Sandwich Mass. Any suggestions on the area???
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1899 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hi Jan, Nettie, The best advice has been posted, mix the fast and slow to get the results you want. LeFranc size is the best I've come across. The quick sizes will cause the holidays. By adding slow size you have a bigger window and less chance of holidays. Tried Luco slow size once, and just overnight it lost the tack. LeFranc slow and quick size are your best bet for success.I also prefer loose gold, it actually is thicker and the results always is better. German 23kt glass gold works best for me. Good luck. P.S. Still waiting for the photo.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
the patent leaf works well on flat surfaces, but on that pattern of gouges you're doing, loose leeaf will get in there better.
I think I'd size the whole area with quick size and then only gild those gouges and recessed areas. Let it dry and size the whole area again with a 50-50 mix of slow and fast sizes. This time I'd gild the entire area.
I find fast sizes to go off in a spotty manner, and adding enamel seems to increase the problem. I like to use fast size on "in the water"yachts and fire trucks and slow for most everything else.
Double gilding is not a bad thing.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just an update to say that I'm making do with what I got over here. Seems to be coming along much better. I really appreciate the insight given here.
Here's how I proceeded. I am still using the Luco fast stuff and just not waiting as long with it. Next gold project I'm going to try mixing abit of fast with slow as was suggested here.
I did the radial (rays) area and the small embellishment at the top center in loose leaf. I did the bordered area around the red panel in patent gold. I did have better luck doing that particular area this way. It's just easier for me to lay alittle gold at a time with the patent stuff. hahahaaa.... guess I'm just not loose enough to lay smaller areas of the loose stuff at a time! Here's a sneak peek at how it's coming along. I still have the radial areas of the second sign to do today. A Glimpse of Gold
I guess I'm pulling it off ok. Plenty of room for improvement!!!
Thanks so much for the support and wisdom! Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
quote: I guess I'm pulling it off ok. Plenty of room for improvement!!!
I love your understatement!! Makes me want to throw away my brushes.
Very nice stuff!
Seriously, I admire you greatly for your dedication to the craft. Although your work is nothing less than awesome, you honestly see there's still lots to learn. This is the letterhead spirit and an inspiration for me to strive to achieve what I am capable of in the future!
Now where did I throw those brushes...
Thanks!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8761 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
double gilding is fine except it blows the budget for time and materials...My hunch is that if the cracks won't repair, then the size is too dry.
my experience with one shot quick size is that the open time is extrememely short (don't get me wrong, I love the stuff) and you really can't do large stuff with it.
I agree with the others that mixing fast and slow is the best solution, though you will want to experiment so that you can get it consistent and predicable. It seems unusual that slow has taken so long. I've had good luck with the german stuff that Art Essentials sells (can't tell you the name, it's in German!)...12 hours and it's perfect, even in humid weather.
Bruce
-------------------- Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
If I had it to do over again, I see areas I would have definately done differently. That seems to happen quite abit. It's a combination of learning thru experience, and then later feeling like it could have been better had I done this or that. I call it the "shuddas".
In this case I wish I'd have rounded some of the flat surfaces some, and had experimented with the slow/fast mixture on size.
You guys are great, ... thanks for the insight and positive feedback! It really does help!
Roger, I will get a photo once it's installed. Thanks for your interest ... and the samples.
Bruce, thank you too. I have admired your gold work in photos Steve and Barb have shown me. Luckily, I only had to regild one of the areas on only one of the signs since I had taken on the gilding in separate sections.
Also, the last time I used the slow size, it was LeFranc's. It may have been the unusual circumstances as I was gilding sealed concrete finials outside. They were subject to alot of sun, and some rain too. Perhaps some moisture from the concrete? It was a week and a day before I felt they were ready to gild. (I would go out and check on them daily) Needless to say, I was apprehensive to sacrifice that kind of time on this job.
I will make sure to do a test with straight slow size, and then also mixed abit with fast and see how it works out in my shop conditions.
This job has really taught me a great deal. I'm also glad that instead of scaring me away from future gold jobs, it actually spurs me to keep trying to get better with it.
Janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Nettie, on the issue of LeFrancs. I bought some back when I was doing a lot of gold work, everybody I knew was raving about it. I bought both the slow and the fast. The slow would NEVER set up, not even after a week, no big deal though as I usually used the fast. The fast took over ten hours. Drove me nuts! I tried mixing the two, no luck. I spent a lot of time making long distance calls to friends and suppliers and even went so far as to order a different batch of the fast...same results:( I had used this stuff at meets out of state with great results. Here in the Memphis area it just will not work. I called one of the local sign shops that did a lot of gold to get his opinion of the stuff, he said he had the same problems. I've always attributed it to the high humidity. Then you get feedback from people in other areas of the country with high humidity that say they have no problems. I dunno, I'm no meteorologist but I have lived in N.J. and saw 98% humidity and it is NOT the same as 98% humidity here or in Florida....we won't even get into humidity in New Orleans Anyway, something affects this stuff to the point of rendering it useless.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
George and Janette, We used quite a bit of LeFranc size over the years. It definitely dries slow. We usually painted a layer of imitation gold down first and let it dry. Then we mixed up a small cup of half imitation gold and half ivory lettering enamel. We added maybe a thimble full of LeFranc quick size to the baby food size cup and mixed it up for a nice "reasonable" size. Half a thimble full often worked for quicker results, and it held its tack fine. You can always see where you are putting down new size, because of the color difference between it and the underlayer of imitation gold. As a rule of thumb, the more layers of paint and primer under the gold, to make it very smooth, the better the final gild.
With some size, you only add a thimble full of paint to tint it. We found LeFranc to be the other way around. We like One Shot's gold size, but it doesn't have quite the window as LeFranc. On some of our reverse glass work, we used products like quick rubbing varnish, which we could gild in ten minutes.
Hope this helps, Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Janette great advice here from those who have posted,....occaisionally when I get holidays on surface gilds I have found you can reactivate the size if it is fairly fresh with a drop of alcohol on a q-tip. I take and dip the q-tip in alcohol then squeeze off any excess then lightly touch the size just enough to see it has been wet then as soon as the alcohol flashes off. You can see the wet area turn slighly oranger then back to normal as the alcohol flashes off.As soon as that happens often you may find the size has reactivated enough to gild a small holiday.It may not work to solve gilds with large areas of size that has lost it's tack but it will solve an occaisional small one,... On another note it is very important to size only an area that you will have time to gild if you intend to take advantage of fast size. hope this helps ya,..
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just finished gilding two signs with 1 Shot fast size. My fingers are sore from trying to press the gold down into the sandblasted letters. The size seems like it was either too wet or too dry. I had to re-size several areas because the gold wouldn't stick even though the size felt tacky. I finally gave up and gilded it on the "wet" side. It was just dry enough that it didn't come off on your finger when you touched it. The gold is a little dull but it looks good. I'm going to shop around for another brand of size.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1285 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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