posted
I scuff up the surface to knock off the gloss and roll on the One Shot. But most often, even with a thorough cleaning with Rapid Prep, I still get little dots of the background color. The paint pulls away making a little crater resembling fish eye.
What do you all do? One coat? Two coats? I'd love to 2 coat this next sign but it involves leaving the backgound color as a border and large oval in the middle using vinyl paint mask. If I 2 coat, I can't pull up the mask after the first coat while its wet and risk the paint bridging across the mask and coming up later after the second coat. Would taking an Olfa knife to score the paint along the mask edge do the trick?
I'd like to hear what you all do?
Thanks
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5406 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Hi, Dave! We use a scotchbrite pad on an orbital sander. If the border is to be white, we use striping film to cover it. We never roll on Dibond here. We only spray the paint on and we never have anything other than a glass smooth surface. We wait 5 minutes and then strip away the masking. The edges stay smooth cuz there's no buildup like with a roller. Most all of the paints we use only require one coat. We don't use OneShot cuz its too expensive compared to other oil based paints we use. Besides, automotive paints really spray on cool! I like the urethanes best.
posted
Thanks for the response Rosemary, but spraying is out of the question. I'm just not set up to do it safely. I would love to spray my panels if I could.
One Shot too expensive? Last time I looked, automotive paint was way more than One Shot. You have a supplier that uses auto paint as a loss leader? hahaha
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5406 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I also scuff with a Scotchbrite pad. I then roll on One-Shot and "tip-off" with a brush. I get a nice glossy finish that so far has held up. Regarding tape, I remove masking tape asap to allow build-up to level out.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When prepping a panel, I also use a scotchbrite pad and Rapid Prep. It goes without saying that you should wipe the panel with a tack rag just before spraying.
When I spray OneShot, I first thin it with Xylene. I also add one drop of fisheye remover to the mix.
I've never problems with fisheye's and poor bonding since.
posted
scotchbrite, wipe down, roll it, using a black foam roller. Sometimes I add some japan drier or PS hardener to the paint. Once the color is on you'll see a bunch of small bubbles in the paint I usually roll the paint out of the roller on some newspaper or something til its almost dry, then very softly just drag the roller across the paint in the opposite direction as you rolled it on, with no pressure and kinda quickly soft smooth strokes, I get an excellent finish this way. the key is a thin layer, most one shot will cover in one coat. If a mask is on it remove it right away while the paint is wet, then you wont get a hard tape edge, I use a pair of tweester or an x-acto knife to lift the edge of the mask then grab it and pull it off.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Thanks for the replies. I use the methods stated above and still get a little fish eye. Bruce Bowers said he cleans with alcohol after the Rapid Prep. I'm going to try that on my next panel. If that doesn't do it, I guess I'll have to get some fisheye eliminator.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5406 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Dave..come on down and visit again!! Bring the panels with ya!! I'll spray them for ya ..no charge!.I use the Roger stuff!!! I works..BUT I also use other stuff!
Yer welcome any time Dave!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I personally dont use Rapid Prep so I cant say anything about it. (I do use Rapid Tac) I use a product called aircraft prep. it is a wax and greese remover. But even still you should not be having this problem, unless there is something airborne in the area, like a spray silicone based product. I use to share space with an auto detailer, when he did the tire dressing stuff my paint would fish eye instantly! I finally made him do the tires last and wait til it was outside.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Dave, I have been fighting those exact problems for quite a while. Here is what I found that works. Lay down your tack coat of one shot (or like material) in a dust coat where you can still see though it at least a bit and walk off. Don't return for at least 15 to 30 minutes to continue. The paint will need to be thinned properly on it will leave too rough of tack coat. You can usually lay on another in 20 minutes or so depending on the temp and humidity. One of 2 things was happening to me continually. The paint would we wet enough that it could fisheye away from microscopic particles because the drying window is too long. The lighter coat doesn't allow the paint particles to pull one another so much as in the surface tension on a heavier coat. Also the second coat if shot onto a heavier first coat would crater like a drill hole, because the first coat would try to finish degassing through the top coat. This would usually not occur for 30 minutes or so. The deal is the aluminum is slick and will not breathe from the bottom like MDO, so any gas off has to be upward. THE FIX is the lighter coverage on the tack coat on and the patience between other coats. They have pretty much fixed my problems. I have tried a rougher tooth sanded surface, but the scratches seem to telegraph through the coats and show. I would recommend nothing coarser than 320 grit for this Hope this helps and is not too confusing. Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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I always spray a tack coat, too, as Jack D. says. Of course, that's not possible if Dave is rolling.
I would try a more thorough sanding rather than just a scuffing. Dead flat the finish so there's no more gloss.
Rosemary mentioned using a Scotchbrite pad on an orbital sander. Round Scotchbrites with adhesive backs are made just for DA sanders and do a magnificent job.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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CAUTION WILL RODGERS.... CAUTION!!!!!!! STAY AWAY FRoM THE FISH EYE ELIMINATOR!!!!!!!only reason you need it is if you dont prep the surface properly!!!! and if you use it once......YOU WILL HAVE TO USE IT ON EVERYTHING YOU PAINT IN THAT SPACE!!!!! grudy get your 2 cents in here.....iam an old body/fender man...and that stuff is bad news....if you clean the surface properly,(like they do when they paint a car), wipe it with solvents(sorry rodger)and then wipe down with a TACK RAG...you will get a glossy finish. i spray paint panels all the time with automotive acylic enamel.....iam not set up to do it either, but i shoot with a spray gun out in the yard, where there are no overhangin trees, and the panel can dry in the sun!!!!again...STAY AWAY FROM FISH EYE ELIMINATOR!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Roger I too am a automotive prep user, although I use and love rapid tac, I have never used any other Rapid products. Do you thimk I am a good canidate for some free samples???
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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rodger, my friend.....i was doin body work back in the 70's. your product was not available then. i was an outside salesman for a couple different NAPA parts stores. being a salesman(you know about that)i was taught by the MARTIN-SENOUR paint company reps.....how to use and sell there products. since i had some body and fender experiance prior to this job..it helped. nowhere in the instructional methods at that time said anything about RAPID PREP. all that was available was M/S KLEENZ-EASY...& FINAL WASH. duponts called theirs PREP-SOL. so these are products i tend to use(at that time and now because i know they will do the job they are intended to do)and old ways that work fall under..."if it aint broke, dont mess with it". when i am painting a vehicle or a panel....i use"body shop" methods that i know will complete the job, with out any problems. i dont know of any body shops..using rapid prep as their "total prepaint prep product". i have your sample and have used em....but iam old..and old habits die hard....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well Joe, you and me have at least one thing in commen, I started in as a painter and metalman back in 1965, in Indiana. (burr-cold)
And yes I have used every one of those old formulas, Pre- this, prep-that, kleano-, etc.
The one thing that was a very "CONSTANT" over all the years of paintin/custom paintin, They always left me afraid of a "fish eye" blow up in the paint booth !!
I never had complete confidence, always wonderin if some silicone was gonna pop up around a windshield post or under a moulding??
I liked to see reps (some) come in my door, they taught or enlightened me about new products and methods, I tried to keep an open mind !!
But those old prep formulas were just that, OLD, and not "with it" anymore.
OPEN MIND OP. !!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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rodger....i painted many a vehicle....and didnt use anything other then prep sol ,kleenz easy etc etc.and i never worried about fish eye with these products. the fish eye problem usually occured...WHEN THE SURFACE WAS NOT PROPERLY CLEANED. or you laid your hand on he car prior to shootin it. you have seen my step van with the purple and yellow paint????....well i painted it in my YARD, in the open, but i did the PROPER PREP with solvents and a tack rag. made sure i didnt put my hands on it while i was spraying. and guess what....not one spot of fish eye on that whole truck!!!!! i must be doin somethin right......we can continue this debate for ever...but how mant bodyshops are using your product as the PREP SOVLVENT?....and you need to make a call to MODERN IMAGES(dont know where they where at) they was on tv, the speed channel on a show called HI REV CARS or something like that. they are a big vinyl application shop that does a lot of the FAST & FURIOUS type car graphics....and they said this right on tv.."we wet the vinyl prior to applying it with a solution of water and soap", then we squeegie the liquid away from under the graphic and it bonds." go get em........
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Actually O.P., I'm happy you never did or do get problems with "fish eye" but, (jokingly) maybe its other eye problems He he he he
I'v probably painted over 500 cars in my days, no they didn't all have fish eye problems ! And no, they were not all custom jobs(rolls,Jag,DeThomoso,Ferrari,vette,Hot Rods),but a large number were, and these had to be "flawless". Theres a time for paintin in the back yard(I'v done many there) and a time for "show quality", I think you can appreciate the difference.
But, when one job blows up "fish eye" on you, well, lets just say "thats what seperates the apprentice from the journeyman" and it wasn't puttin smiles on anyones face !
I Guess your sayin you never have or had a "fisheye" (silicone) problem ??
Well, consider yourself very fortunate !
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Well I finished 3 panels yesterday. The paint mask was laid down. I took my Makita sander, laid down the maroon 3M pad and went to it. I took all the shine off. I did extra hand scuffing at the edge of the paint mask. Cleaned 3 times with Rapid Prep (and yes Roger, I only use the super el-cheapo paper towels). On only one panel I then wiped down with alcohol (never done this step before but decided to try it) . I rolled on the paint with a foam roller, dry rolled it again to break the bubbles. All three panels are nice and smooth, but again, all 3 panels had the little pin dots of the background color showing.
I have never sprayed silicone in my shop. Maybe years ago the previous owner did.... I don't know. I HAVE used silicone based caulk to install Gemini Letters on signs and rails. Could this be the cause??
Dave Grundy... If I were closer to you, I'd be there at least once a week...
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5406 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Dave,look at 3 causes for this..#1 did you clean the panel b4 you sanded it? then again after otherwise you'll grind what ever was on the surface in #2 you're probably painting in street clothes that have fabric softener...whack yourself in the chest a couple of times and watch the dust etc fly off,all it takes is a couple of pieces here and there to set a few fisheyes going #3 ... Doesn't necessarily have to be silicone itself causing the fisheye...if you have or ever had the habit of leaving gallons of mineral spirits,cans of paint etc open in the shop itself believe it or not the fumes can do it. There's also a chance if yoiu were using an air sander that perhaps oil misted out etc while you were sanding,got in a groove and RP missed it.
Now having said all that,i have had the same thing happen on aluminum and dibond that was coated with plastic protection and it was cleaned with Rapid Prep,cleaning it with Rapid Tac instead stopped it...havent been able to nail down why yet and haven't had time to play with it to see...Roger ever come across that yet?
One more thing....these guys are 100% right in recommending not to use the silicone based fisheye,but you can get a flourocarbon type based one now from any supplier which you can use when you have a prob like this and you can use it without contaminating your shop,equip etc.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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I've seen this too. I believe the problem is static. I say this because I get a nice jolt every time I rip the plastic protective sheet off. The static is still on the surface, and on your clothes.
So get naked and put a bounce fabric sheet on your roller brush handle and you should be good to go.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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Dave, you can ID the problem with a magnifying glass. If the spots have a speck in the center and are pond or saucer shaped, they are fisheyes from contaminates. If they are little holes that taper in slightly from the top and appear slightly like you are looking into the top of a tornado, they are caused by a gas off in the cure time. I don't believe that airborn contaminants can cause a fisheye after the paint has been put down, so I feel that you can eliminate that.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Fisheyes are caused by contamination at the surface that occurs b4 the paint goes on,they dont happen after the fact which is why he can't rule out airborne contaminants until the problem is solved.It only takes 2seconds or less for fumes or something else,even some tiny speck of HDU powder dust from 4yrs ago to sit on the surface b4 the paint hits it to jack up the whole process.Airborne causes are responsible for about 30-40% of fisheye problems. Dave if it was solvent related you'd have patches of these tiny holes,not just random ones here and there,rolling across it to break the bubbles disturbs the surface film enuff to prevent that unless you're dumping and entire quart on an 18x24 with a hot reducer in it.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Foam rollers? I don't use them when doing a quality job! Too many bubbles!
I suspect the lil fish eyes are caused by tiny bubbles trapped in the wet paint that finally pop open. I prefer a short nap mohair roller! I rub it down and vacuum the roller to remove any loose hairs when using oil based paints. If using latex paints, I wet scrub then wash the roller. It only takes a couple of minutes, but eliminates the greif of pinholes and imbedded hairs.
In addition, I add a little Edge or Penetrol to oil base paints and FloTrol to latex paints....better flow out!
Werks fer me!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
A lot of good points have been made here that could be the cause . The cores of foam or coroplast can hold a lot of static, try spraying the backside with static guard.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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