posted
I've been cutting vinyl for another sign shop for awhile now and was asked yesterday if I could put the vinyl layers together and premask the whole thing. It's a two layer job for a truck.
I usually apply one layer on the vehicle and then apply the second layer over that but have never tried masking the whole thing together and wonder if anyone has any tips. Thanks Wayne
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7409 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I do it for race cars all of the time, I just mist the back of the top layer with application tape on it just like normal, with rapid tac and spray a really fine mist on the bottom layer while it is unmasked on a table, Then apply it just as normal BUT be quick about it. After it sits for a few seconds HERE comes the key, take a damp rag and wipe over the premask (this is so you don't get the bottom liner too wet by just spraying it on straight). Let it sit for about a minute then remove the premask at a 45* angle to itself BUT with it alomost laying back on itself but be careful, if it seems to be lifting from the liner, go over it again with the damp rag and repeat. NOW Go over the whole thing with a paper towel to soak up any excess moisture, being careful not to lift the edges of the unmasked vinyl, Then let it sit for about 15 miutes or so, so that all the moisture will evaporate and premask the whole thing again. I haven't had a problem yet but you can't get the bottom liner too wet or it will wrinkle. May be better ways but I just do it this way.
[ July 17, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: John Thompson ]
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Wow John thats a scary way of doing it, but if it works for you...Wayne, I dont reccomend masking mutilayer vinyl because of the high risk of bubbles, but when I do multicolor vinyl on one sheet, I put Registration boxes on all 4 corners, then after cutting I make marks on the table that line up with the registration boxes then I place the top color and mask it (make sure to tape the masking to the table to act like a hinge and it will keep its registration) then I pull off the liner and place the second color underneath, line up the registration boxes with the marks on the table, then mask on top, and so on till you have all the colors. Hope this made sense. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rick, that's why I do it wet is because there isn't any bubbles. Once you get the hang of it, it is really easy. I have to do it because I have so many guys I sell Go Kart and Race Car decals to for self installation and they want them to be already layered.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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What I meant was a higher risk of getting bubbles on install, by the end user, not that I do anything wet, this would be an application where I would recommend it when installing it. I have one question though, doesn't your liner get all jacked up using Rapid Tac, unless of course you are using a synthetic liner. Hi Roger!!! Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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When I have tried it, little to no bubbles, but when applying the graphic as one peice, the vinyl stretches where you have the single layer compared to the double, causing bubbles on install. If its a big (over 24") multi layer graphic, it's worse. When it gets that big, sub it out as a Scotchprint if it's small-the Edge, and forget the mess. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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You just gotta do it a few times and get the hang of it. A combination of not putting too much rapid-tac and using a paper towel to soak it up works fine. Plus, you want to spray most of the fluid onto the top layer, just a fine mist is all, then CAREFULLY suspend the graphic over tha bottom layer doing most of your major alignment before you lay it down. I even do Chorme and Coburn Diffractco lens mulit layef stuff wet with Rapid Tac II. If I get through cutting and weeding out a race car job for the next day that I will install, I will sometimes go ahead and layer it at my shop. I haven't ever hade a problem with bubbling EXCEPT one time when I layered Reflective before a wrecker job and it was easily taken care of. I won't do that again though.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sawee foh mi bad speleng, i shud hav usd "hukd on phonix". I wil ti bettr nex tim. Duhhhh!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I don't like to layer pre-install either but if customer insists then that's what they get (bubbles not my problem)
I double stick tape the back of the first layer to a light table ... then as long as the second layer goes past the backing of the first I just hinge it and mount it kinda like but the first layer taped (on back) to table
1- starting with bottom (or base) layer, tape it (just a small strip across the top and across the bottom) to 90 -degree vertical table(wall or sheet material makes a temp. table) "vinyl up".
2- remove liner from second layer, (now assuming you have registration marks of some kind), spray adhesive side of 2nd layer (wet!) let a few drops run off, now apply to first layer, move it around and into place.
3- squeegee it from top to bottom (not bottom upwards to top) keep the Rapid Tac away from top edge so it dosn't seep under and get the liner of the first layer wet !
Now, repeat each new layer, as many as necc.
I don' know, its simple as long as you don't get the first layer wet ! Now you apply some quality trans tape, slow and carefully , roll it up or whatever way you like to ship it.
If your workin on a "large" section you would maybe need someones help, but thats true dry or wet, either way.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Sounds scary to me....and I gotta believe the end user ends up with gobs and gobs of bubbles?! They must not care though, or they wouldn't ask for it that way right? You're brave souls.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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There is another method........using the "trim" tool in Corel, I cut away any bottom layer so that the final product is only one layer thick. It takes a little longer and registration marks are needed, but you don't have bubble problems. Also, clear masking and a light table make the job even easier.
-------------------- Mike"Spud"Kelly zipperhead design Westminster, MA Posts: 367 | From: Westminster, MA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Todd, I'm giving you my way cause it "eliminates bubbles", Its simple.
Its just like applying the vinyl to the finished substrate, except you don't remove the first layers' liner, what could possibly be easier? no light table, no special work on puter, just eyeball it if you are good enough, or pre mark it for alignment with stabillo pen.
Oh well, do it the way that works best for you ! Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Boy... have we been thru this one before!! There is no way you can apply a pre-layered vinyl assembly without getting bubbles at the edges of each layer. The squeegie CAN NOT make contact with the vinyl at the edges of the upper layers. 2 or 3 mil vinyl has "thickness" and the squeegie can not conform to that ridge!
Do it dry and you can run yer fingers around the edges and then prick the bubble and get away with it. Do it wet and do the same thing...WON'T work! Still a pain in the butt either way.
The problem of bubbles is not in the layering part but in the application of 2 or 3 or 4 layers all at once onto the final substrate.
Personally, I kinda have a problem with exposing the backing paper to ANY kind of moisture. I know that the "waxy/silicone" surface that the adhesive side of vinyl faces is impervious to moisture but the cut lines in the backing at the edges of the graphics/letters are not! If you have ever done a wet application and got the backing paper wet by accident, or if you have ever driven 60 miles to letter a boat and find it sarting to sprinkle rain while you are doing the job you know exactly what I am saying. If not, you will have to learn for your self!
HOWEVER, if the customer wants to install themselves let em do it..Just get the money up front!! Kinda like Mike's post about that special "wrinkly vinyl"
[ July 17, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
Next time try using the Electrocut vinyl with the plastic backing. Get it as wet as you want. No paper to soak. Works great especially when supplying graphics to be installed by customer.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 705 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Though I wasn't addressing the issue of bubbles upon "final application", I still have had good success with my method, at that point as well (maybe I'm hell on squeegee preasure or something?) not too many broken windows !
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hey Roger, you may have a point about the squeegee pressure, I use a hell-o-lot-o-pressure, I'm the one who kills the 'lil chizzlers, when I get done with a white squeegee, most of it's laying in slithers on the premask, Even warp the gold squeegees! Oh well, I still do mine wet, of course, most times my decals like that do go to the dirt track guys who only have to have one family reunion a year and it covers both sides of the family! They may have a bubble the size of Mt. Everest on there and never see it! HA!HA!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sometimes over the years, i have had to overcome a wet backing liner..... i found that a little patience goes a long way.
Let it dry and the liner will come off just fine nearly every time.
I dry the liner with a heat gun being carefull not to over heat the vinyl on the other side.. and I have allowed the liner to dry by itself. either way i was able to continue..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I've found that if you aren't cutting too deep into the liner, or letting the fluid run off onto the table, most of the times it just sits on the liner and then all you have to do is sit a paper towel on the graphic for a second or two and it'll all get soaked up. Then I just let mine air dry. I haven't ever had to deal with the consequensious of a soake liner doing it wet. I have had to when I let stuff get soaked in the rain cause I didn't pay attention to where it was sitting though. Thats what you get when you leave your shop to do stuff!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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On stupid small stuff like race numbers or registration numbers for a boat, I layer the vinyl and let the customer know there's gonna be some bubbles between the layers of vinyl that they can pop with a needle. They'll most likely have to pop bubbles anyway, may as well not even waste my time worrying about it!
But when it comes to larger stuff like my jetski kits, I will not layer vinyl at all, no way no how. I trim out the graphics so there's only one layer of vinyl thickness. It not only makes it easier to apply, it does better when I have to roll 'em up for shipping. I can also put a 1/4" gap between the colors as part of the design which eliminates any visible differences once the vinyl starts shrinking, and it also hides any mis-registration which rarely happens because I use a light table to assemble everything.
Lately if the only reason for layering is to produce an outline, I've been outlining by hand with paint.. pretty easy, the cut vinyl gives you a nice guide to follow.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I have been doing multi layer vinyl jobs as Roger descibes for quite a few years now and yes the plastic squeegees do cause problems so I have switched over to felt squeegees totally now, they make the job a lot easier.
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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Wow, the whole thread & no one's yet gloated about the gerber EDGE!
OK I won't either, but when I used to do this I would layer from top to middle layers, & then middle to bottom, as at least one other person mentioned. Rogers simple step-by-step appeared to have left out the removal of transfer tape, that would be required working from bottom to top & that is where some bubbles could be created.
Oh - sorry - I must have drifted off. Thanks for waking me up Doug!
Yes it is true: Printing multiple colours onto one colour of vinyl takes a heckuva lot less fuss and muss: Less cutting, less weeding, less premasking, less Rapid Tac (sorry Roger), less application time... and more profit. Plus you can produce a much wider variety of products to sell your existing customers (which is smart marketing).
Pretty much any Gerber EDGE owner that you will ever meet will tell you that buying one was (if not THE smartest, then) one of the smartest investments they've made in their business.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Please excuse me if I sound like I come from another planet, but I layer colors with a 1/8" trap and preassemble dry. There aren't any bubbles, cause there's only a tiny bit of overlap between the colors. Using a light table and 1/2" registration marks in the top two corners makes 1/8" inch traps plenty to work with. I've done graphics with as many as 9 or 10 layers of colors, some with airbrushing on them, with no trouble at all.
That's with prototypes...
When a design went into production, they were printed. I agree that printing is the way to go on multicolor jobs...IF you have a printer. If not, you may want to try the traps sometime.
[ July 18, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
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but the first layer taped (on back) to table![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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