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From time to time there has been quite a bit of talk here on the BB about using two part automotive urethane in sign work. It's probably the toughest most durable finish presently available....BUT!... It has some serious safety concerns.
I ran into the 3-M rep this morning at the local auto paint store, and we got to discussing filters for spraying isocyanides. Their recommendation is that you don't spray any of the two part urethanes without using a fresh air system, which is rather expensive. There is a filter cartridge on the market made by Willson (Not sure of the spelling) that uses a charcoal filtering agent which they claim is effective against the isocyanides, but the big rub is that they are only good for 7 days after they are taken out of thier sealed package, even if they are not used. After that period of time they should be discarded. They are also a bit on the spendy side.
There is also a lot of concern about absorbing the toxic chemicals through your skin. Gloves are a must. The guy that mixes the paint there at the store had to go to a special toxic material class.
I think the bottom line is that you really need to know what you are doing, and be willing to invest in some expensive equipment if you are using two part urethanes or catalized enamels. If you have employees that are using the stuff, you also have a lot of potential liability in regards to proper training and potential future compensation claims.
Some nasty stuff..... You'all be careful, you hear!
------------------ Jerry Mathel Jerry Mathel Signs Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com
Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Funny you should mention that, Jerry. I've been spouting that same info to novices for years, and VERY few of them actually take it seriously. One youngster even told me he liked the "bannana" smell! Oi, gewalt! A mask ISN'T enough, guys..............
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I think it depends on the volume of work you are gonna do, using the urethanes.
If you do one job a week with urethanes, maybe the filter is fine.
In the case of a full blown auto body paint shop, I'd say a mask or filter definitely is not enough.
Maybe I'm wrong on that too, who knows?
I do know that I've done extensive fiberglass work and I definitely recommend ventilation and protective gear when working with that stuff in any kind of volume work. Sometimes I could get away with doing a quickie project in the basement, other times I could do a project in the garage WITH the garage door open and walk away a few hours later heaving all the previous weeks' lunches.
=)
------------------ Mike Pipes -----trapped in a box with a computer and a slice of cheese-----
Posts: 145 | From: Lake Havasu City, AZ | Registered: Dec 2000
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"In a cubicle"???? Did they arrest you AGAIN Mike???? :^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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i painted my bathtub in sarasota with a/enamel and added the catalyst...with out any mask....let me tell you folks....i thought i was gona die......couldnt get enough air for about 8-10 hours after(i was still smokin then, so it was really bad) felt like i had truck sittin on my chest.....there was small window in the b/room and i put a box fan in the window to pull out the overspray....it helped some but i will never spray without some kinda mask. i just sprayed my mobile sign shop with the same stuff, but it was out in the yard and i had those little paper masks...but i made sure i was not in cloud of overspray when i would inhale....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wait a minute. Are you guys talking about the same urethane I keep hearing about for foam signs? Cause I've been trying to get ahold of it for a while, but havent been albe to. I mean, I've used polyurethane clearcoats, but I'm not sure if its the same thing you're talking about. is it? TIA
------------------ Marcano-Welch Signs Luquillo, Puerto Rico 787-889-6608
Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
You guys must have forgot to mention that ALL Catalysts contain Isocyanites. This also goes for 1-Shots Catalyst or Hardener as they call it.. In 1-Shots case you must wear gloves of some kind and never pull the brush between your fingers without gloves when using their hardener. Many folks like Mike Pipes are too young to realize the dangers involved, but the fact remains that Isocyanites can kill you and will attack your nervous system by entering the pores of your skin. I have been using this stuff for many years and take whatever precausions I need when during brush work such as gloves, long sleeve shirt and a mask. You may not notice any difference at first but down the road you might reach the end alot quicker. Have fun but watch your a-s as it may not be there tomorrow......
posted
Joey Madden and I agree on the hazards of isocyanates. Use proper protection! I, like Joey, have been using hardeners in paint since the early 70's and so far have had no problems. But I don't even spray lacquer primer without a charcoal mask. As far as using a "dust mask" forget it!!!!!!!!
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
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Felix, we are not talking about HDU Urethane foam board, which is a relativly safe material to use. What we are talking about here, is catalyzed paint for coating signs. The catalyst is the main culprit that is highly toxic. Not saying you shouldn't use it, cause your can get some fantastic results with it. Just be sure you are using proper safeguards. Visit someone in the auto paint business, and they can explain a lot more in detail.
------------------ Jerry Mathel Jerry Mathel Signs Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com
Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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pierre, no they didnt arrest me, I kinda walked into the cell voluntarily. =) I dunno my password to post here so I created another ID I can use from the office.. so, when ya see that I'm in the cubicle, you know I'm tryin to reach out between the bars for a hand. =)
Joey, actually I do know how bad that stuff can be, just from my experience with a different dangerous medium (fiberglass and carbon fiber) which is why I've been researching all kinds of spray hoods and such so I know what to get when I return to Arizona and build a spray booth.
I dont doubt it's very serious stuff, I walk into the other paint shops in Lake Havasu and see them not taking the precautions they should be. I guess we learn by example, eh?
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Like with anything that "you should keep out of the reach of children" or "Not safe for human consumption", precautions must be taken. They say you should even have gloves for One Shot. I don't wear gloves for One Shot and don't really use gloves for spraying. All other precautions are taken though. Since laqueres are harder to get, Urethanes are now mostly my choice of paints for automotive and "all durable exterior finishes" that I do. I use One Shot almost daily also. Like having a safety over that tablesaw blade, safety is important in atomized paint too! Even if it's waterbased! Second hand smoke can kill you too! Good post!
------------------ Robert "Bobby" Salyers Airbrush & Graphics Studio Clearwater, FL airbrushnow@email.msn.com
He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and different desires. Each man is good in his sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows.---Sitting Bull
[This message has been edited by Airbrush Bobby (edited December 21, 2000).]
Posts: 505 | From: Clearwater Florida USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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One of my mentors and a close freind has scarring of the lungs due to this chemical. When the two-part paints were introduced to body shops the health warnings particular to the hardener were printed on the case box and not the can. He lost eight, EIGHT , years of his life staying in the house in controlled temperatures. Says he remembers stepping out to the mail box one winter and couldn't make it back to the house. READ THE LABLES! DO what they SAY! For the young guys ... damage to the lungs effects your blood gasses. If you don't get enough oxygen into your system your heart has to work too hard...which means another part of your anatomy may have trouble GETTING hard. Ask a doctor or someone with advanced emphesema. ( or just sit there and listen to them try to breathe ) so pay attention to the small writing. This includes the small warning on the packs of smokes.
------------------ John Byrd Ball Ground Georgia
so happy I gotta sit on both my hands to keep from wavin' at everybody!
Posts: 741 | From: Ball Ground, Georgia, USA | Registered: May 1999
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