posted
I remember a story told during a business seminar at Doug Downey's meet in Stratford. Back in the mid-1800's there were quite a few shops that produced buggywhips. As time went on, the motor car came upon the scene, and more and more people acquires one. That meant that they no longer drove horse-drawn vehicles, and the demand for buggy whips dropped dramatically. The very last shop that produced buggywhips, was one who's pride and workmanship was second to none. They made the very BEST buggywhip available. In spite of their committment to quality, and their pride in their workmanship, this shop eventually ceased to exist. Their market had simply dried up.
As I look at this trade, I'm wondering if those of us who still offer hand lettered signs are in a comparable situation as this last buggy whip maker. The tools and technology continue to improve, and an increasing number of clients these days are of the "instant gratification" type. Showcard writers and Billboard pictorial painters seem to be the first victims of the present technology. A good deal of the work that these specialists did is now being produced by digital imaging technology. The "learning curve" required to master brush lettering is probably greater than the "learning curve" for a design program like Corel , Adobe Illustrator, or Photoshop.
Why then would any of "the young lions" entering this profession invest a significant portion of their "learning time" into mastering hand painting techniques? They can gain entry into the signmaking field far quicker, and become productive faster, and become more valuable to themselves and their employers by studying and mastering the "new tools" available to them....especially when they can see a growing apetite for quicker, faster, & right now, in the present consumers?
What are your thoughts?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Studebaker was a major maker of horse drawn carriages, and they transformed themselves into a pretty good car maker before they lost the market and went away. IBM predates computers, they have survived any number of technology transitions.
The Swiss handed over the volume watch market to the Japanese. They continue to thrive with "Jewelry" watches and Swatches. People own more watches than ever. How many do you own?
Signs are the same way, more people are buying more signs than ever before - the market is larger than ever.
In 1989 I sold lots of 14" high, laminated paper banners, printed on a small line printer. Kids today don't even know what a line printer is. No one had postscript fonts in those days. That came and went, and then there was the first wave of the ADA sign revolution. Now it seems like everyone makes ADA signs. Now the leading edge is four color work.
Sign requirements change. The technology changes. The competitors change.
Good signmakers with good business skills will find a way to adapt. They always have. I really believe this. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I'm trying to get into the business end of applying vinyl to automobiles as the substrate, figuring that vinyl could be heat treated and shaped to contour the body and fenders, thus never having to paint my car again. From there we can change the color at any given day.
Think of the possibilities!
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
well one could see why it came down to one last shop, the market itself dried up, the shop did not transform its skills to produce another product.
As I see it that story cannot be directly applied to the sign industry because unlike the buggy whip industry, Signs are not being replaced or drying up.
That could be applied more to a quill manufacturer. Where a brush was used exclusively to produce signs, now it is computers and brushes the computer taking the bulk of the load.
quote: Why then would any of "the young lions" entering this profession invest a significant portion of their "learning time" into mastering hand painting techniques?
To learn basic essentials to good design, like letter/line spacing, Kerning, How a letter is actually constucted as to be able to manipulate letters to create unique logos and designs.
It is obvious that NOT learning these things have brought signs to a disguisting cookie cutter way of being.
Our predesessors had a higher quality standard both in what they delivered and in what they would accept as quality. That is obvious in the building design and construction from years gone by. Why is it the fonts we all salivate over is the old hand drawn ones. It's character!!!! and character comes from oneself, not from a beige or black box and a colorful glass screen.
So does this mean you have to use a brush to be considered a good signmaker? hell no! but what it does mean is take the time to learn the essentials that important to producing work that is worthy of being a keeper of the craft. That to me is an important part of being a letterhead.
The industry manufacturers are to blame for that. They sell thier product based on the fact that you need no experience. That is right you need no experience to open a shop, you need no experience to push a button.
But it does take experience to produce a proffessional product. and that you cannot buy. THAT you still must learn and earn.
Thank god for that, just imagine if 50 years of experience could be bought in a 3 CD set for $19.99? hey Joey there's an idea for ya! lol
[ July 07, 2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm not sure why I'm wading in here...but you know it's the same as ignoring history...those that chose to are destined to repeat it.
Now I'm not saying everyone should learn the hand craft of lettering...but I do believe anyone involved in Signs should be aware of what got them to where they are today by studying yesterdays craft.There is certainly no way it can hurt anyone and who knows something important might be learned like ...layout...design...spacing...color contrast...even the best ways to turn a profit can be learned from people that have gone before you.
One thing that has been forgotten here sometimes is the actual reason the Letterhead movement became a driving force...it wasn't to compare prices....complain about goods and tools...it wasn't even established as a way to party with your friends.The sole purpose was to revive the old skills that were lost or forgotten...every thing else is what we have made of it...and what we have made of it is why none of the original heads are interested in being here (just my opinion)
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I still like comparing it to drafting. In the 50's and 60's, even the best draftsmen wouldn't have ever dreamed on AutoCAD coming along. The when AutoCAD and computer driven drafting programs came along it created a whole different breed of drafting. Does that mean that the best guys at pen and paper drafting are better or worse than the guys using AutoCAD only? It doesn't really matter cause the guys using AutoCAD are going to be able to do way more volume, make instant changes without having to do hours and hours of reworking and be able to charge less money because they will be able to do more AND it gets to a point where if you don't learn how to go modern, you will be out in the cold EVENTUALLY maybe not now but in a decade or so. I even think that one day the standard vinyl cutter will go the way of the do-do as digital printing starts to become more reasonably priced. Think about it, one day, when 90% or more of sign shops use digital printing (beleive me it'll happen) who (the customer) would want the plain jane straight vinyl look? This is not next year or probably next decade but in the future. Sortta of like the VHS tape, I remember when they replaced the BETA, people said "There will never be anything better, then came the LaserDisc but it was WAY TOO expensive so it was limited only to the rich but its technology eventually in a few years evolved into the DVD and a mere 3 years ago only the rich had DVD, now look at it, every redneck in Wal-Mart has one. As I always say TIMES Will & Must change, that is the law of the real world.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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John...I love the Drafting and AutoCAD example! Since I do a lot of work for the constuction trade, I have seen beautifully designed interior walls, BUT no way to attach them to the exterior walls! The newbie draftsman didn't know eonugh to tie them together! (just like newbie sign ppl!) In fact I remember a Project Manager screaming at a young Architect..."You young $%#@% shouldn't be allowed to pick up a pencil or turn on a computer, until you have spent 3 years in the field!"
Does that sound like some of the new kids?
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It doesn't matter what kinda of work you do you will always have idiots AND it isn't always the new guys. I am going to take a picture of a sign sometime that I want to post up it was done by a shop that has been in business for 25 years. It'll make you puke and I ain't talking about the design either. I this week am also putting lettering on the side of a truck replacing magnetic signs and I also want to take a pix of them. You would die! They were done by a shop with 15 years experience. No rounded corners is the least of the problem. The entire company name is gold with black outline Aldine about 1.25" tall all bunched up so thight that you can't even read it arched into a complete half circle over a pix of a stick man wearing a hat painted with 3 colors of one shot and it looks just like a kindergardener did it sortta like a joe cartoon! Phone no. at bottom in 1.5"tall gold with black outline Aldine. Now this mag is 24" wide by 15"tall so you can imagine, it gives a whole new meaning to the word Negative Space. I know that I am not even a pimple on the #ss compared to most of you guys BUT some of these old guys like the ones who did the 2 examples listed need to kick the bucket! I have seen a whole bevy of dumb 18-20 year old kids getting machines and starting Graphics shops just because they saw "The Fast and the Furious" though, I get a real kick outta seeing their idea of a sign. Howsa about red Rage Italic for EVERYTHING on a dark blue sign. Great for catching attention.
[ July 07, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: John Thompson ]
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I have had to learn both the "time honored skills" and the more modern technology in order to make a living in this trade. In the span of a quarter century I have been replaced by digital printers as a pictoral painter on billboards and by signgold as a firetruck letterer.I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would choose the fuzzy digital print over a hand painted pictoral competently painted.If I had painted that fuzzy in the past I would have been fired.Yet these same firms that would have fired me in the past have lowered their standard in order to eliminate the labor variables to make the almighty dollar.I cannot fathom why a municipality would accept a 10 year product over an almost permanent one as with the case of signgold.But all in all that is the market we deal with daily.Seems the almighty dollar will in the end dictate what in the end we will all be doing in order to make enough funds to accomadate the lifestyle we choose.I have tried to understand how an inferior product could replace a superior one but to no avail save the fact of availability and price. The marketplace is dictated by supply and demand.Presently in my area,in the simple one off custom sign industry there is a glut in supply, thus creating a lowering of price to the end user.I am kinda glad it is so easy to learn the "technology" needed to ply the trade as it was in the present day. It creates a rift in the marketplace between simple goods and the very high quality of traditional hand produced custom high quality goods.I am kind of glad that few have learned to hand letter as there will always be aspects of this trade that demand it, and it makes my efforts more valuable and rare in the marketplace.In the meanwhile I am looking to learn that which will bring home the bacon so to speak. There will always be a market for my skills and I still believe I can take my box of brushes almost anywhere on the planet that uses the roman alphabet and the arabic numerals and make a living albeit with a digitizing tablet or a brush. I'm with Si on this one tho I feel as everyone should have to "spend their quota of time in the trenches". Knowledge will never be a replacement for wisdom. The two have to be attained together.What I do not like is the attitude of "high tech rookies" that what I have taken all my life to learn is outdated and no longer needed. I KNOW how to do what they do and I KNOW how to do things the traditional way. Can they say that? Often as not the excuse I hear is the lack of need for them to learn what I know,yet I see in alot of their work something lacking that can only be "learned in the trenches". In the end I still say that there should be a required section at the beginning of every CAS/Design program manual that goes over the very basics in layout and design of typography, along with the basics in hand lettering. Far too many people in this day and age go by the ideal that if they own and can operate the software they have the skills needed to ply this trade. If any inovations and or across the board advances in our trade are to succeed there has to be some sort of attempt to retain the very basics so the foundations remain.
posted
All you old guys, I respect you a lot and I am sure that I am not the only one. I myself a ready and willing to learn all there is to learn about signmaking BUT I do see a lot of idiots NEW & OLD who don't want to learn anything but how to make a buck. We have owned resteraunts for years and we experienced the same crap as you guys do in signs, for instance, we have had the same pizza recipe since 1976 and had a bunch of succesful stores but within the last 5 years, we have just gotten so fed up with the way it is that now we just have one, you can't get good help, the prices for our food is LOWER than it was in 1986 just to compete, supplies are double since then, rent is $1700 a month and that is just the beginning. People all of the time came along opening up a shop to compete with us both independent and franchised, the first thing they would do is go for the throat by having some stupid $3.99 16" pizza deal and having their prices $1-5 lower per item across the board. Their food was crap BUT they created a feeding frenzy JUST over prices. Most of those guys had never stepped foot into a resteraunt before BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER to the customer. It is the same way in every business nowadays NOT JUST signs so don't feel ran over cause it is everywhere. Construction, Auto Body, Lawn Service, Video Stores, Convienent Stores. Look at it from a broad view. People want it fast, cheap and quality comes on down the line just look at McDonalds- crappy burger, get it quick but they sell millions a day, everybody can always get a better burger at the mom and pop shop BUT it doesn't happen anymore. As Bob Burns says, it's a Wally world.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I pulled this quote from Johns first post here...
"It doesn't really matter cause the guys using AutoCAD are going to be able to do way more volume, make instant changes without having to do hours and hours of reworking and be able to charge less money because they will be able to do more AND it gets to a point where if you don't learn how to go modern, you will be out in the cold EVENTUALLY maybe not now but in a decade or so".
This is the biggest crime of all...if you can do four times the work with a computer than a journeyman signwriter can produce , then that person should charge 4 times the amount for his product...instead they begin their business by "charging less"...and mostly because they don't understand the nuts and bolts of the industry.
Had they bothered to understand the biz and where it came from they could have walked right into it making more money than the lowley journeyman...instead the went in the other direction and it has taken at least 10 years to get it back to where it was (price wise)in the late 70's.
Am I the only one seeing this? Why does anyone charge less because they can do more work in a shorter period of time? Makes no sense to me!
Modern shouldn't be defined as cheaper...thats not progress!
[ July 07, 2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
and if you doubt his theory, Call Ford tomorrow and ask them why cars aren't cheaper than they were 10 years ago. they certainly can produce more today than they could ten years ago and they have less labor doing it too.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've also gotta agree with Monte. How in hell does it make any kind of sense to invest a significant amount of money in any sort of computer-assisted signmaking system, and then say you should charge 1/4 of the benchmark price, because you can now produce 4 times as much?
In my book, that's called leaving money on the table. Your customers haven't invested anything...why should they be the ones to reap the benefits? Maybe that's why things like magnetics & coroplast signs have become so de-valued that they're not worth producing anymore.
What happens when that ultra-modern system breaks down or becomes less competitive because "more advanced" technology becomes available? If you're cranking out 4x the volume, but charging less per unit, you simply won't have the bucks to keep pace with the latest updates. Hampsters on exercise wheels run like hell, but stay in the same spot. Producing signs with this philosophy, is putting yourself into the same situation as the hampster.
I'm all for using the most efficient tools to make my work and life easier. I've been dragged kicking and screaming into this computer age, but I do see the absolute necessity for adapting ones self to the new realities in this trade. I believe that failure to adapt, will leave me vulnerable to becoming like that buggy whip maker.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
If the learning curve is so much quicker why aren't very many of them picking up on it? As for comparisons, I learned a craft that I absolutely love. I can't understand old line craftspeople dropping the ball as they have to do quicky-stickies. It's like finding a special girl friend that you're head over heels in love with and then buying a robot to occupy her time with so you won't have to deal with her. What's the point? Just money? "Here, Honey - here's a vibrator. Instant gratification. Now don't bother me." ______________________________ Or let me put it another way. It's the difference between playing a musical instrument and popping a tape in the player, or turning on the radio. Helvetica, of course, is the AM station. I can understand a musician taking on DJ gigs now and then but giving up performing music for just that?
[ July 08, 2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Why then would any of "the young lions" entering this profession invest a significant portion of their "learning time" into mastering hand painting techniques? They can gain entry into the signmaking field far quicker, and become productive faster, and become more valuable to themselves and their employers by studying and mastering the "new tools" available to them....especially when they can see a growing apetite for quicker, faster, & right now, in the present consumers?
What are your thoughts?
Well here are my (albeit somewhat random) thoughts. I guess I'm a "young lion" (I'm 27). I use the computer a lot, I start most of my designs with a thumbnail (yes, with paper and a pencil) then go to the PC and draw the thing. That way I can make all those "instant" changes, and I don't have a huge bin full of pounce patterns 'cause I've got a file and I can repounce the pattern exactly the same way every time.
Now that being said, I also know how to hand letter, though I'm pretty slow. I just sold a $675 hand painted a-frame. Why? 'Cause a client wanted an a-frame, but when the "Downtown Preservation Society" found out they thought of a plastic barracade thing with vinyl on it and freaked out on the poor guy. I talked a bit with the fellow and told him not to worry because I'm going to build it 'outa wood and paint it for him. He was happy, the DPS was happy, and I'm happy.
Point of the story? I don't know if I'm making buggy whips or not, but I'm sure glad that I bothered to learn to pull a quill ... Even if I am slow.
-------------------- Jon Androsky Posts: 438 | From: Williamsport, PA | Registered: Mar 2002
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If you guys had read the last post i put up you would have seen that it isn't just the sign business. I just the other day looked at an old menu for our pizza shop. In 1988 we charged $20 for a 14" pizza NOW the competion has dictated the price to where we have to charge $10 or less for the same thing. The price of cheese and supplies is almost double what it was back then so why is the cost driven down? In 1988 we had a big block oven with a door and we could cook 8 pizzas in 15 minutes NOW we have a belt oven that will cook 100 pizzas an hour. What gives? I was with a friend of mine who owns a succesful video store when I saw it and he said "you know, in 1988 I could get double for a tape rental what I do now and they still cost the same price", then we talked to somebody who works on computers he said yeah, "I can remeber when people first started getting into home computers in the 80's, I could get a lot more for working on them then than I can now and now they go for pennies on the dollar what they went for back then." Cars CANNOT be thrown into the batch because they are one of the few things that seems to never start going down in price, they always seem creap up in price. Look at TV's I just bought a top of the line 27" sony trinitron for $375 bucks. I bought it to repalace the 27" RCA I bought in 1991, I paid $700 for it back then, if the same logic that applies to cars applied to the general retail market, why did I pay less for that sony which is at least 10 times the tv as that rca? I don't like the way it is today but what can anybody do about it. It really makes me mad too!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Bob, the quill analogy has already started to happen, well not exactly quills but close enough. I've got a wall to do this week and as I haven't done any wall work in a number of years I needed a few fitches. Now Memphis is a pretty good size city but we have never had much in the way of a decent sign supplierr, we have an Ameribam warehouse and a Tubelite store. Ameriban quit handling brushes after trying them for about a year so I knew I had to go to Tubelite...oppppssssss, all they had was about six cutters:( After a few phone calls I finally located a few out of state, I was told they are in very short supply as Grumbacher and one other company ( forget who ) have filed bankruptcy
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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(just like newbie sign ppl!) In fact I remember a Project Manager screaming at a young Architect..."You young $%#@% shouldn't be allowed to pick up a pencil or turn on a computer, until you have spent 3 years in the field!"
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