posted
Seems like the new generation of sign makers sure have a lot of promblems producing products in which to support thier life style. If you are not recieving enought money for this purose. It can always be said..... Demographics,Customer Base,Cost of Materials,Lack of available ClipArt,Inferior cutting programs and machines,Types of new products,etc.etc.etc. For me personaly..... IF the design was non-saleable. I wasn't on the same page as the customer,with color combination,emphasis,spelling,spacing,etc. If Material failure happened. I wasn't using the best substrate,the preparation wasn't done correctly,didn't use the right paint. If the copy was illegable to read. I didn't produce proper letter styles,keep straight lines,or used the correct spacing required. YET for some reason it all boiled down to being MY FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!! From this point on I learned through my mistakes. hence gaining the confidence to create better products,better design,that lasted longer and was able to demand the price for quality work. DAMN I just wish I had more things and people to blame my failures for than just ME!! I am starting to understand why the easy way out ain't so easy. This open letter is directed at all the people that learned this trade from the ground up!
THE OLD TIMERS
Thanks (duckie)
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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OH Pul-ease, how can you make that kind of statement to the good folk of Letterville Duckee!
Making signage is so easy when help is just a click away. I've always waited for you Ol'Timers to give me the answers to my problems, I've even put of a customer or two until you've answered the question. Why should I learn from mistakes?
Now stop it, and send me the " How-To " and the clip-art I need! it the Letterhead way
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
P-King, You hit the nail on the head, Knowledge and wisdom is a tresure!
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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he he he quack quack Joey Just read one this morning how a certain brand won't weed right! US old timers would have STOPPED at the first sign of trouble. Why would one spend all that time finding out it won't work? THEN spend more time posting why? I think I would have SEVERAL kinds of vinyl cut at several depths,with several knife sharpness BEFORE I started hand lettering!
Your clip art is on the way.... as soon as I take the time to fiquire out how to send it to you via the internet.
Maybe I could just Mail it to you. But...................
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The new music sucks and the fashions are just too funny.
Rap music with a bass beat strong enough to rattle our house and rock singers screaming unintelligible guttural sounds. I won't even get into the language. Sheesh...
As far as fashions... Why in the world do people wear clothes 4 sizes too big and walk around with their drawers hanging out?
To be fair, I seem to remember my Mom rolling her eyes at Black Sabbath and Ted Nugent while wondering how we could wear bell bottoms.... LOL!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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There's also no longer apprenticeships and other ways of achieving the "on the job training" that the "Old Timers" got so...
I guess it would be safe to say that the BLAME falls on the OLD TIMERS for NOT CONTINUING all the APPRENTICESHIP programs that THEY had!
How's the sign newbie supposed to learn from the ground up when there isn't anyone willing to teach them?? They can only resort to teaching themselves, but maybe that's even more "from the ground up" than finding someone to help out!
Jus' stirrin up the pot a li'l cause the BB's gotten a little boring the past week.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote: There's also no longer apprenticeships and other ways of achieving the "on the job training" that the "Old Timers" got so...
Try and find a young person willing to work for nothing or almost nothing for the privilege of learning a trade. Okay, okay, before people start yelling, of course there are exceptions. Most people starting out in today's business world want it now and they want to be making the big bucks. They don't seem to grasp the concept of "starting in the mailroom".
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
The "School of Hard Knocks" is a tough and painful way to learn. First the tests are given, then the answers are revealed, after you've had the test. When you learn in this manner, you don't tend to forget any lesson.
I always remember something that Larry Whan said. It was something to this effect: The cost of Ignorance is far greater than the expense of Education. The really smart folks who visit this board will benefit by saving themselves from a whole lot of painful lessons....but then there are those who simply have to find out for themselves. Who's to blame when that happens?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
I started the post on ORACAL Not to blame the vinyl for anything, IT IS A FACT. I have MACTAC cast and calendered vinyl on hand, AVERY A5, A8 and A9, TAPE TECH Cast as well as ORACAL 651. The 651 IS the ONLY one that has an inconsitincy problem and it seems like it is a common problem. I use ORACAL 651 ONLY for coroplas signs, race cars and Go-karts NOT for anything else that SHOULD require a high performance vinyl. The only reason that I even brought up that topic is so that anybody else who is experiencing the same problem would figure out that they aren't the only ones having problems with it and spend hours trying to adjust their cutters settings. I have been to other BB's also had people there that are having the same problems with that specific vinyl. I have been an ORACAL user for well over a year AND this problem is NEW (at least for me it is), only started happening in the last month or two, up until then, it weeded grat. I did figure out not to use it anymore and why waste time talking about it? I like to be both the person who learns from a BB like this AND the person who helps to pass on info. This bulletin board is here for Signmakers of all ages and types to share info and knowledege. It is a wonderful thing and a terriffic place for us ALL to learn. Sorry if I rambled on but............
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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mikey....the apprenticeship is still available to you or anyone who is WILLING & INTERESTED ENOUGH TO LEARN!!you been to a letterhead meet.....you see how many people are willing to show those who CANT...HOW TO.....but most arent willing to invest any more time then the 2-3 days at a meet...they think they will learn to paint...thru osmosis....AINT GONA HAPPEN! ive said it and ive heard others offer.."to teach any that want to learn".....but these kids today EXPECT to be paid...for knowing nothing.....i got reletives...who wanted "a job" with me...told em come around i will teach you something...and i wont CHARGE YOU!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
.....remember that overnight sucess usually takes about fifteen years!
We all had to start somewhere.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I don't see as many NOT wanting,or willing to teach as I do NOT wanting or willing to LEARN! After all..this BB can only share information. Getting to a LIVE meet,asking questions and willing to be SHOWN the technique is the Best way for anyone new to the business to REALLY learn. So If you REALLY REALLY want to learn about this trade,its people and techniques. Get to a letterhead meetand start watching what others are doing,then ask plenty of questions. It is all up from there. Just don't BLAME ME
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Good point Roger Not only is a good work ethic needed,a COMMITTMENT to ones self,mixed with the DESIRE to learn the sign trade in order to achive the monies nessesary to support the life style one is accustom too. NOT the other way around!
Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Pat, If I had as much slack time as you and as much money to travel to meets I certainly would as I would love to learn more of the trade. Unfortunitly, I have work up the wazoo and not much time or money to go all over to meets. Someday maybe. So please give me a friggin break. Oh and by the way I think it's BOB's fault! Just because.
posted
Yeah Steve I know that fact. travel expense can be pretty hefty.
quote: Seems like the new generation of sign makers sure have a lot of promblems producing products in which to support thier life style.
I don't know about that Pat, around here several of us new generation shops are easily supporting a very high cost of living lifestyle just fine. Cranking out products that seem to be making the customers happy & make making money for them & us.
I think we just have problems producing products that make old timer lettering artists happy. In fact it seems most of the "blame game" I see going on is old timers blaming new generation methods for taking away their customers. I love to break out a brush on occassion, & would be stoked to learn even one tenth of the skills Pat & so many here have shown, but digital design is just as rewarding for many of us. Financially & emotionally.
Well applied cut vinyl or edge printing on a scroll-sawn MDO panel coated out with a glassy background color of one-shot & a nice painted border laid out with fine-line tape is as much an art as you want it to be. There is still a demand & respect for the old arts & the keepers of the craft are a blessing to us all, but as many lettering artists have often said, this business has changed. Not eeveryone needs or appreciates traditional methods. Those who don't want to change could still find respect for contemporary methods.
[ July 06, 2002, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
I ain't got a high end lifestyle but it pays for my new house a decent chunk of land and a lot of toys and I just got started good!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I don't think that much has changed over the years except methods and technology.
Back in the late 60's and early 70's when I was just starting out I knew it all. I sure didn't want to work in someone else's sign shop for minimum wage while I learned this business.
The local sign guy hated me. He laughed at my inexperience too.
But I knew better. I could make four or five times the wage he offered me... no sweat. Soon enough I figured out that all the money I brought in wasn't mine. I paid out for supplies, tools, rent, insurance, vehicle costs and a thousand other things. Especially taxes. What was left over after everyone else got their share was mine... and many days it would have been more if I had gone with the local sign guy... not to mention valuable experience and learning.
So I learned the 'hard way'. But in the process I developed a style and methods all my own. Success was instant after 25 years of hard work. Lucky me! I did have fun the entire journey and not many regrets along the way.
And through the years I've met many folks... some young, some old and all in between. Some came to me expecting and wanting to start at the top... for a premium wage. Very few I thought had the talent and experience to deserve it. In most cases, the best help I have enjoyed through the years started at the bottom... young folks who had a strong work ethic and a good attitude. They were eager to learn. They learned through experience... both theirs and mine and that of other members of the crew.
Both types always have been around... the impetuous folks like me in my youth who pay for their education through experience on their own... and those who want to learn and are willing to pay for their education by starting at the bottom and work their way up with someone of more experience.
In both cases its climbing a long ladder that can only be scaled only one rung at a time.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
hey steve.....Unfortunitly, I have work up the wazoo and not much time or money to go all over to meets. RAISE YOUR PRICES!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
and i make it to meets!!!!!!! and how much do you get for a 18" x 24" corplast that says FOR SALE & NUMBER in helvetica? i know your in maui...the denney's $2.99 2 egg breakfast there is $5.99!!!!!
[ July 07, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: I think we just have problems producing products that make old timer lettering artists happy. In fact it seems most of the "blame game" I see going on is old timers blaming new generation methods for taking away their customers.
Ok I'll first admit I do not consider myself an oldtimer, But I do respect those who do and wisdom tells me to observe their work and methods and learn from it. I did do an apprenticeship but have mostly self taught. But the apprenticeship was very important.
Most of the old timers I have met have a life long investment in their craft and have infinite wisdom. This should be respected. and admired. We will never have full apreciation of what it took to make signs from thier perspective. I don't care if you own a brush, know how to use it or not
Most of the new generation sign makers don't see any value in learning the history of their chosen field. another case of disrespect.
They want to jump in hit the ground running and get rich tomorrow. In doing so make numerous mistakes and take no resposibility for thier actions. gimme gimme gimme.
This is what I percieved from Pats original post, It is a problem of today's generations in a whole not just in signs.
I want it ALL, I want i NOW and HURRY UP and give it to me dammit!
WELL hurry up will ya! lol
[ July 07, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I know from reading lots of your quick replies to clipart requests and such, that you would rather people try and paint or draw for themselves than rely on electronic means. I respect your years of experience and your will to share your "knowledge" through meets or this board.
I have blamed my share of equipment and software over the years, when most of the blame lies with the operator.
I remember 25 years ago trying to get onto a signwriters course but distance and expense prevented it (that was while living home in England). So I went driving semi's in the music business, then 10 years ago with a child on the way decided to try and enter the signworld again. I thought I could manage by painting off beat stuff here, and using my Sprint for bread and butter work (12 typefaces). I guess you have to see what your markets are. Here in Sweden NOBODY sells lettering enamel, everything is done digitally, and often very simply....the Scandinavian way. So its been an uphill struggle to both learn a trade and promote something a little differenty.
In the words of Bob Dylan "The times are a changin'..." I think we should all take time to learn from great signmakers and designers of the past and the present, and do our best to offer the best design for the money, with whatever methods are best suited to our markets.
I had been against getting involved in digital printing, have resisted an Edge for years, but felt it will help enhance my position save me time and make me some money. I think alot of us who are so passionate about what we do forget that we run businesses. We are not struggling artists but creative or artistic businesspeople.
I know people today who blame poorly manufactured brushes or paint for failures the same as you can blame bugs in software!
We move forward in life offering the best we can with what we feel most comfortable with....
For a 18" X 24" coroplast sign, double sided, with a "F" frame comes to $100.00 plus sales tax.
Same sign without frame is $75.00...
Single sided is $45.00...
It is you, Joe, not Steve, that needs to raise his prices. I find your pricing to be outrageous but you have to live with it, not me. What the heck do I care... LOL!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
$12 for a coroplast sign??? You're kidding right? If this is true...OP...you're draggin down prices because that is giving it away ...
I would charge in line with what Bruce quoted...and I only do this as an after hours deal. But my time is still worth money.
In regards to the original post....I can see where Pat is coming from, but I think it has always been like that to some degree...even when he was young.
I'm wondering if there is any connection to people's unwillingness to work and the introduction of the welfare system, and the countless social(ist) giveaway government programs that encourage people NOT to want to work?!!!
I think this has probably cultivated the lazy attitude Pat now sees, rather than putting the blame on the younger generation as somehow not having the "work ethic" gene.
And who was around when most of these programs were implemented? Hmmm, I'd have to say that was the "older generation". Probably as a result of their experiencing the lives they lived through the depression.
Just another angle to consider....I think that regardless of what year you happened to be born in, the overwhelming influence on who is a good worker and who is a lazy bum comes from the people that raised you.
People raised by government assistance OR by wealthy parents who gave their kids EVERYTHING are probably more likely to want everything for free without putting forth any effort to earn it.
I started working at 12 years old in the summers planting vegetables, hoeing weeds, bailing hay, etc out in the hot sun and thought a couple bucks for my effort was great!
Now contrast that with some inner city kid who never once saw their parents go off to work at a job! Why would they want to? A very few will break the cycle and make something of themselves.
And that OP is why I'm a proud Republican. I feel the democrats love to keep the masses dependant upon government, through all their government freebie programs...thus insuring their vote...whereas the Republicans take a more personal responsibility approach to things. Yeah, they both have their skeletons, but I'll take freedom, responsibility, and some basic morals anyday over the freedom grabbing socialists like Bill and Hillary and Al.
Wheeww! That felt good!
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Bummer!! Something must have been edited cuz I can't see any reference to cheap mags!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Dave, if you were looking for the tangent on O.P.'s cheap signs it began following his post quoting Steve Nettle,
quote: O.P. says: hey steve.....Unfortunitly, I have work up the wazoo and not much time or money to go all over to meets. RAISE YOUR PRICES!!!!!
I couldn't resist bringing up his $12 coroplast prices he mentioned on Wayne Webb's recent pricing topic. Actually in O.P.'s defense, I checked back & it was $12.50 for one-side. So your off the hook O.P.
Bob,
quote: This is what I percieved from Pats original post, It is a problem of today's generations in a whole not just in signs.
I agree with what you are saying here. I am not an old-timer at sign work either, but at 44 I'm no Gen X-er either. I think people who are new at being adults, rather then new at being in the sign trade are where the generalizations about work ethics seem to be most accurate. I didn't get that from Pat's post though.
[ July 07, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Sorry Todd. The political angle just don't hold water. Since 1983, Barb and I have attended many, many Letterhead Meets all over the USA and Canada. We've met Letterheads of all political, religious and ethnic backgrounds. Their ages range from teens to oldtimers in their 80s and beyond.
A Letterhead Meet brings all of us together to celebrate and preserve the best of our industry's past. The Letterhead experience also serves as a wonderful vehicle to explore today's new technologies and learn together. There has never been a better opportunity for those who want to become the best they can be. Find the person that is doing and/or has whatever it is you desire and listen to him or her. It's that easy.
We live in a society that seems to feel fixing the blame is more important than fixing the problem. One only needs to pick-up a newspaper or turn on the TV to see various groups and individuals wasting valuable time, words and energy pointing fingers in an effort to somehow win by fixing the blame. The courts and lawyers love the game, but in the end, the real problem is often left unresolved.
So what does this have to do with Letterville? Let's look at this current topic. Pat expressed an opinion that is based on things he has read and his own observations after many years in the trade. I feel Pat was reminding us that there was a time when something like Letterheads was just not available. For many of us, learn as you earn was the only option. Finding information and avoiding problems is much easier today.
Joey's post suggests Letterheads only need read a how-to and gather clipart. It's an obvious attempt at sarcasm. Joey knows it takes years of observation and practise to master anything worthwhile. The Letterhead way is one of the best places to start. Let's hope we can persuade Joey to come out to a live meet and share his experience and skills in person. Much better than a How To article.
Speaking of live meets. I'm always hearing how expensive attending live meets are. This is a valid observation, but if you listen to those here who have more time and resources, they will be the first to suggest you invest in yourself first. I can't recall anyone ever saying a live meet was a bad investment. Come to a live meet and discover that special person or group of people that can help you realize your goals. It may take some sacrifice now, but pay off big in the end.
These posts take me forever to type. After all these years, I'm still a two finger typer. By the time I get to the end of these things, I quite often find I have forgotten whatever it was that caused me to start this post. Has to be an old age thing.
If all I manage to do is get a few to start thinking about fixing the problem instead of fixing the blame, the last hour may just be worthwhile.
If anything I said prevents someone from taking a personal shot at someone instead of focusing on the real problem, the last hour was very worthwhile.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
bruce if your gettin that for a corplast sign.....you be one hell of a man!!!!!if i belived that i also buy bridges!!hahahahahahahaha.....todd...you dont derserve a reply of that diatribe....talk about right wingest, too much linbaugh!!!! and for all that took it the wrong way....IT WAS MENT TO BE FUNNY...steve didnt reply...and i think he took it as a joke..for all you SERIOUS ******* get off your soapbox!
[ July 08, 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
No offense Pat, but if your original post wasn't a sweeping generalization of young sign artists as lazy, whining, and impatient, then I definately missed something in the several readings that I gave it.
Castigating newcomers en-masse for their choice of technology over "tradition", is about as logical as blaming them for the demise of the mom & pop hardware store in favor of Big Orange.
I've had the privilige to meet many young people starting out in the business. By and large, they are more receptive to advice than many of the so called "veterans". They have sucked up every tip they can get, and are generally quite respectful.
A majority of people entering the business today are going to find that the computer is among the most important tools in their shop, for use in both design and production. That is progress, the pc has largely replaced the pencil as a means of bringing ideas into reality.
I no longer do 95% of my layouts on kraft paper using a drafting arm. And if I'd had a pc 20 odd years ago I might never have learned how to do hand lettering . So what? It is the quality of the concept, the design, the product, not the purity of the method, that is important.
And Clipart? How many amongst us "old timers" don't have a library of Dover reference material, or perhaps an old DG subscription?
Some of the prettiest dimensional signs of today are being produced by people who've probably never picked up a chisel in their life. Am I gonna bitch because they use a carving machine instead of a mallet & gouge? Why should they bother, if their product can be just as good as mine?
Some of the digital graphics being produced today take every bit as much artistic ability and skill as any hand painted project.
You are lamenting the passing of an era. A time when everything had to be done by hand.
Such is not the case today, we now have new and wonderful tools at our disposal. The gifted designer can bring more ideas to fruition in less time than ever before.
And, as in all eras, the cream will rise to the top.
And too, there will be hacks, as there have always been.
Some will choose to carry on the old methods, but as time marches on there will be fewer of them, and those who do will hold a special place within the trade.
Please, don't blame these kids for doing pretty much the same things that we would be doing in their place. And, please, don't over-dramatize one person's potentially legitimate complaint about material quality into a universal condemnation of his generation's work ethic.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I don't know where Pat sees these young whiners and blamers. I don't read or experience that here. If there is any consistent message that comes across on this board it is by many "old timers" who lament the newer ways or how they are not consulted enough (deferred to) by the young people. I think at a certain point some people here just want to have their lives and skills validated here. When they don't get it, they blame others.
There maybe broader generational issues in society in general, but I don't detect any less commitment or striving for excellence in newcomers to this trade. Many look at it as a good trade, some as an artistic endeavor, and others as a quick buck. So what, same as always.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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