posted
I have been trying to learn to gild some raised letters on a test piece of HDU. I first tried gilding over the acrylic latex which was already on the letters...That failed. The size had been on for about 15 hours and apperared ready. I applied the gold but when I went to burnish it, it rubbed off easily......size and all.
So, next I painted one letter with Oneshot chrome yellow(over the latex) and the other with PB resin(also over the latex)and let them cure for a couple of days, sized, waited 16 hours, checked the size with the knuckle squeak test and applied the gold......same thing on both..the gold and size just rub off.
Is it because I'm not getting the size stirred completely before use (it's a new can of LeFranc slow oil size) or something else? Thanks for the help.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Wayne, could it be that you are just rubbing too hard? I don't have alot of gold experience but I know it doesn't need to be "rubbed" down. I apply the gold, tamp it down with a soft make-up brush and then give it a dusting off with the same brush.
posted
After applying the gold and brushing off the excess with the make-up brush I usually rub VERY LIGHTLY with a soft piece of chamois. You may just be rubbing too hard. The gold and size shouldn't be that loose - it would take some pressure to get the size to come off with the gold.
Keep trying. It may take a while to get the hang of things, but you will be pleased with the rich look of gold leaf.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Terry, It seems to me that it shouldn't rub off that easily. For example, I tried burnishing it with a small piece of cotton and it doesn't take much effort to rub it off. It doesn't seem to me that it would last any time at all outdoors
It looked nice and might not need burnishing but, I'm mainly testing it for durability/adhesion right now.
I'm using crocodle brand 23k patent gold and Lefranc slow oil size.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I had an idea last night which I would like to try. My daughter raises registered rabbits and I was petting one of her "mini Rex" does. The fir on those rabbits is incredibly soft. It's probably softer than velvet. Wonder if you could burnish with that?....But she would never let me skin one of her rabbits. hehe
No, but it's really rubbing off way too easily I would think. I'm doing something wrong but I ain't givin' up yet! I'll check out the chamois too.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Hi Wayne Sounds like the size got to dry already, I would try and gild after 12 hours or as soon as you think it is tacky enough. If you are a little too early the worst thing that can happen is that you loose some of the lustre. Good luck.
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I don't know if it's the correct way but I was taught to mix the LeFrancs with a little mineral spirits before applying. Can't remember the ratio right now. Seems like 10 parts size to 1 part mineral spirits.
I am far from an expert so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Also, I discovered that when I mess gold leaf up and have to remove it it comes off very easily with a soft cloth and Xylene.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I agree with above, 16 hours might be too long. Surface giulding size is essentially varnish. Keep that in mind when you decide which substrait to use. LaFranc size comes in a 3 hour tack time, and also a 6 or 12 hour type. (I can't quite remember.) I've found that I have no patience for the size to set, so I'm now using One`Shot Quick gold size. Tack time 20-40 minutes.
For burnishing, I've found that a soft cosmetic makeup works for me.
Are you using "Patent" or "Loose" gold? Surfacing gilding requires "Patent" Gold. (and yes, you can use the other too, but patent will be much easier) Be sure to press firmly against the paper backing. This will insure adheasion.
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wayne, Try prepping a couple of yardsticks with the same paint and primers. Apply the size the same as you are doing on the letters, wait about 4 hours, then gild the first 3". Wait another hour and gild the next 3". Wait another hour and gild the next 3". Label each section as you go. Keep doing this until you do about 16 patches. Make a note of the humidity and temperature on your test. The first few will probably be drowned, but eventually one will start working. Continue the test until it appears you have passed the useful time period and all gold is rubbing off. That will give you a normal "window" period which you will need to adjust based on humidity and temperature later in the year. These tests will give you a better feel of the proper tack and squeak during a knuckle test.
This process is the exact technique we had to do when doing exposure test strips for developing photographs in college.
Good luck, Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I just finished gilding some things today. I used one shot quick dry size, and sized it yesterday afternoon. I gilded them today at around 1. Worked fine and doesn't come off even with a good rubbing. These were gold balls that I had to screw into a board, and even with the twisting the gold stayed on.
With slow size I would have to wait several days to size. I've actually waited a week once, and the gold still adhered.
There is a lot of humidity in the air here in Florida, and it drastically slows down the drying process for size.
To me, it really sounds odd that the gold and size can be rubbed off so easily. I find that gold usually barely adheres if the size is too dry, so that's usually apparent right away, even before rubbing.
I'm still figuring out the quirks of gilding tho.
I have used Mike's approach to finding the best window for gilding also.
Good luck with it Wayne!
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
You might check if the Acrylic Latex Paint is the type that's made to resist staining. Some of those Latex paints are treated as to be "soil resistant". Unfortunately, that treatment also makes them "paint resistant" and "vinyl resistant" as well. There are some out there that have those characteristics. Fine as a finished coat that nothing is to be applied to, but a royal headache if anything has to be applied to that cured surface. If you're working on that kind of surface, it might explain why the size is rubbing off.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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If you read the post carefully....the size AND the gold are coming off. I dont think the tack would be gone at 16 hrs..even if it was....it should not come off LeFranc holds a tack for a long time I 'd bet there is an adhesion problem due to whats underneath. keep us in da know..huh Wayne?
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Sounds like the size isn't sticking to the acrylic latex.I would try a latex primer then sand it with very fine automotive paper(600 grit or finer) till it is very smooth. Then seal this with the one shot ,let that dry overnight. then apply size on the one shot and reguild.
posted
I spoke with Inez, at Sepp Leaf Prodicts, today and she said that the LeFranc slow oil size only needs minor agitating (not shaking or stirring) before use. So I rolled it around a few times.
I cleaned a new piece of aluminum with Rapid Prep and sectioned it off in 1'' strips and applied:
Straight size to three of the strips.
Tinted size to three strips. (I teaspoon size with three drops Oneshot chrome yellow)
Applied straight Oneshot to three strips.(for gilding tomorrow)
and chrome yellow tinted size on fully cured PB resin
I also painted tinted size on a latex painted piece of HDU Leftover from an old job.(didn't have a yardstick)
The time was 4:00 PM cst Temp 80.6F and dropping (it just rained) Relative humidity 76% and rising (it's 79% now)
I would bring it into the vinyl room which is 72F and about 30% but don't want to smell that nasty stuff. I'll let y'all know what happens tomorrow. Thanks everyone!
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
With slow size I would size in the afternoon, put the project in the air conditioned office, and usually gild the next afternoon. I burnish with a soft fitch. Don't use cotton, because it will catch on the background. Burnishing is done with a very light touch, just enough to get rid of stray gold and blend in the gold.
If it is all rubbing off, you are rubbing too hard. If the gold is not sticking, it becomes pretty obvious immediatly. Cheers
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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It seems you have gotten a lot of feedback, and i would like to add some, hoping to not confuse the issue. First I agree with Ken Henry and the others who read your original post closely enough to see that you were losing the gold AND the size, which seems to eliminate the size issue and point to the surface that you are applying the size to.
Second, I agree with Mike Jackson and your response, which is to test and decide for yourself and your local environment which works best. I too have seen slow size take a perfectly good gild days after it went down.
Third, i disagree with the post that suggested that patent leaf was inherently better for surface work such as this. I have found loose to be better because the size can be dryer, and you get a brighter gild. However, again, try for your self and see which you prefer.
I appreciate your effort to refine your process and include us all in it.
Bruce Deveau
-------------------- Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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Bruce, Why does loose leaf behave differently from patent? Why can the size be drier for it and why will it give a brighter gild? What properties does it have which would make it act differently?
I gilded the first test pieces at 8:00am. That was 16 hours and the size is very tacky. I also did a knuckle twist test on the aluminum piece and it scarred the size considerably. So, I'll wait another two hours and gild again.
I don't have my humidity meter here because I brought the project home but am sure it is still very high. If the smell will allow I may bring it into the house.
How long should I wait before sizing over the Oneshot?(I painted the Oneshot on the aluminum at 4pm) Thanks
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I have done quite a bit of gilding on raised letters but never over latex. I think your problem lies deep under the gold, try gilding right onto a piece of pre painted aluminium, this will give you a feel for surface gilding. gilding raised letters is a whole differnt game. Raised letters can be done with patent leaf and a stiff stencil brush to force it into the crevices, or with loose leaf and a gilders tip. either way takes a bit of practice to get it right.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I gilded all of the test pieces at: 16 hours, 18(at which time I brought it into the air conditioned room), 24, 28.5, and 40. The results have been pretty much the same so far.
I'm going to do some more research and perhaps try the Oneshot size too. Maybe I'm expecting too much but the gold still seems awfully fragile.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Wayne....you must remember that gold leaf is softer than lead and only .0003mm (.00004 inches) thick!
It WILL NOT stand much abrasion!
Your best bet is to attend the next Letterhead Meet and get some hands-on help by an experienced person! Because gold leaf is really quite easy to do, once you know how!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just a little update: I'm brushing size onto another piece of white aluminum, some Oneshot-painted aluminum, and a raised sandblast letter topped with TC resin. Everything gilded between 16 and 40 hours after sizing, in the last experiment, took the gold just fine. I rubbed all of it with an old T-shirt and it will blind you out in the sun. Since I'm new to this though, I have no idea how much abrasion it's supposed to withstand. When I get it all figured out, and gild the sign, I'll post some pics.
An interesting note: a piece of the gold which was stuck to the bare aluminum was as bright as a mirror.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I've been away, sorry to be so long in responding to your questions. Loose leaf acts differently because there is nothing holding the leaf to the page of paper, therefore it will transfer to the sized surface more easily. If the size is very dry (which makes a very bright gild) loose leaf is more likely to stick to the size than patent.
I have also found patent leaf to have a bit of cloudiness or haze due to the product that holds the leaf to the paper.
These are some of the reasons why I like loose. I admit that some beautiful work has been done with patent, which seems to lead to the point that each artist has his or her own method which has been refined to their liking. I suggest you continue to learn what works best you.
by the way, skip the rubbing with a t-shirt. Even that is too abrasive for the gentle gold. I use wad surgical cotton, available at any drug store rolled up in a box. It is the softest product known, and the least likely to scratch the gild. Keep the cotton away from the fresh size, however, or you will get cotton fibers in the size...and good luck picking them out!
Again, I recommend the book Gold leaf techniques, by Kent Smith from the original by LeBlanc. It seems most of your questions will be answered there, including the issue of gold sticking to the background. I also recommend attending a live meet to get some hands on advice. I'll be teaching a course at Mars this summer.
Best of luck,
Bruce
-------------------- Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Just an update: I gilded the aluminum again at 48 and 63 hours. It's still taking the gold just fine and I'll gild again at 72 hours. I spoke with Rick Glawson of Esoteric Supply and he mentioned that the little specks, which I thought were dust, are actually little particles already in the size. He said that I could warm the size in a microwave and then strain it through a coffee filter. He also said that, even though the size is called "12 hour" he would wait at least 20 to 24 hours and it can actually be gilded for days after sizing. Rick really knows his stuff and if he ever writes a book about gilding.......I'll buy it. Thanks Rick!
Thanks Bruce, for answering those questions. Si, I intend to be at next meet which is nearby.
[ July 11, 2002, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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