posted
Let me start a thread on signmakers who haven't a business license, common sense, or the decency to learn before they jump into a business they know nothing about?
Know anyone like this?
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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I am pretty new to the sign business (2 years) but I agree about crappy sign work. I have drawn and painted my entire life and done bunches of different things that involved meticulous woodwork everything from building high end car stereo boxes for several years to building bookoos of resteraunts, even my own house so I had a decent amount of the basic skills neccessary to make signs. I spent hours and hours every week researching, reading books and practicing and I still do. I stay on this webboard every spare minute I have taking in all of the knowledge, experience and wisdom that can be found here. I even spent over a year making signs for people I know before I even began selling stuff to the public. I put 1000% effort into every job I do and as I get more experience I get better. I WILL NOT attempt a job I have even the slightest hesitation about being able to do. BUT what about sign people who don't even try at all to make decent signs. Guys who make no attempt at a decent layout. Guys who don't care if there is a wrinkle in vinyl 10 inches long. Guys who don't even care if you can read the sing 10ft, away. It isn't all new guys either. I can even tell that a lot of it is done just being cheap, not caring or being just plain lazy. I even try (as probably do most on this board) to do my best on every sign even the "cheapies", it just burns me up to see guys/gals doing crappy work for those reasons. There is one sign I know of where an old "pro" sign shop made a sign that is rectangular 4 X 8 with a circualar piece of wood attached to the back so that half of it is showing above the sign to form a sun peering over the sign. The 2 peices aren't flush, it is 5/8" MDO so there is that much of a difference. They used one piece of yellow calendered vinyl to color the sun and they BRIDGED the gap where the two pieces meet. That's right, there is a "tunnel" formed by the gap and you can see this "tunnel" from 20-30 yards out. It just burns me up every time I see that sign. It isn't the only one I've seen like that, I redid a race car one time where a hoodscoop had been bridged the same way. Why do some of these guys who have been making signs for 15 + years do such as that? I hate to rant and rave but it just irks me. I have a hard time getting deposits around here because I have actually had people tell me "I have had such crappy work from so and so that I won't pay for a sign job t'ill I see it" I know that I am not the best signmaker or even close to it but at least I will always try do my best. I guess what I am trying to say is if somebody isn't willing to take the time to learn or better themselves at signmaking (or anything else for that matter) than they shouldn't be charging people to do it! Okay, okay I'll shut up, I know none of you guys probably do crapy work but I am sure you know somebody who does. AMEN Joey, good topic so we can rant and rave.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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About a block from here there is a carpet cleaning van parked on the drive working on resident's carpet.
The truck is covered with text reading "Signs and Banners" - not a word about carpet cleaning. I went over and introduced myself. He "works out of his home".
So there you are - A signmaking carpet cleaner or is it a carpet cleaning signmaker? Hmmm?
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Yea Joey, There's a guy in this town who has a business license, he's even a second generation signmaker.
HE HAND LETTERS!!!!!!!.......... everything in red helvetica...... on a white background (I'm not exaggerating)
he jams the main copy all the way to the top border on virtually all of his signs.
His shop truck has a pair of white magnetics lettered with....you guessed it......red helvetica. Instead of trying to get along with the other signmakers in the area he treats them like enemies. He has lied to us, tried to intimidate us, and doesn't keep his promises..... Just between you and me.......I don't badmouth my competitors to customers either.
Old signpainter......been doin' it fer years.....
We all have to start somewhere.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Yup. Me. I started out of scratch, not knowing a thing. I've learned out of trial & error, I still don't have a signmaker's license, I'm working out of my backyard... I try to think I have a little common sense, though...
I'm real glad you ask, cause it should open up new ideas about the previous "illegal" thread. Thumbs up Joey!
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Me and Felix are the same...We "started" in this business. We were not fortunate enough to have all of the necessary skills given to us by some higher power, prior to getting involved in the business of making signs. (I hope that you don't mind me mentioning your name Felix!!!)
I AM in awe of those who feel that they were chosen by God to be signmakers or pinstripers Joey!
I guess ya do have to "start" somewhere?
No "license" required here in Ontario, but if it were required, I am sure I could pass the test.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Theres a sign shop near me that does 95% or more of their signs the same way. I think they have a "template file?" they made up that they use every time. It is an arched name in Hel, Hobo, Ballon or Dom Casual over what they do ie. body shop, barber, grocery store all in the same font and color as the name. Then they have all of the secondary info in a smaller version of the same font and in the same color. Next the Phone # in the same font the same size and color as the name. Sometimes they use an outline but the whole sign always has the same color throughout the text. Occasionally, they wiil put a clip-art image under the name, then start with the remainder of the text as stated before. I read Mastering Layout by Mike Stevens, Commercial Sign Techniques, and Truck Lettering by Gary Steele plus read countless how-tos and articles off of the web, plus read several books on color schemes and combinations as well as books and articles on everything I could find related to signs before I even decided to start a sign business and I still find new stuff all of the time to read. I just got Logo Design for small business by Dan Anotelli, great stuff and I will keep on learning. Why can't these folks figure it out that laying out a sign design isn't just putting all of a companies info on a board? To me, a bad layout is as bad as poor workmanship! What about the white sign with baby blue lettering, what an eyecatcer. But as Wayne said, never bad mouth your competition to your customers, just to other sign guys/gals.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Yep me too. Started out not knowing a thing about signpainting. But I knew I wanted to learn. So I went into it with all my heart and every sign I made, I did with complete passion. What I didn't know, I read how or just 'did it'. You can learn anything you want and be anything you want to be if you want to do it badly enough. All the franchises don't matter to me. What does matter is the ridiculous prices and the terrible designs they often put out. Zero passion. That is the part that bothers me. They aren't doing it for the love of the craft. Mostly just to get the $$ in the door.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Well, I don't know about "licensed signmakers", but I do know about the Doctor that screwed up my hernia operation a few years back, the dentists that have blundered on my teeth, the auto. mechanics that can't seem to find the problem or fix it when they do.
Then theres the attorneys that take my money telling me to relax "its all under control", the dry cleaners who looses my clothes, the carpet cleaner and house cleaner that break our personel items and don't know what clean means,the "fresh produce" counter at the grocery that sells brown lettuce and brocolli with worms, the gardners that don't know why your plants are turning brown.
I mean, is it just a sign of the times?
My wife made me promise that I wouldn't argue or try to bring any logic to these people anymore (I think shes afraid I'll have a stroke).
I started noticing this change back in the 90's, It just seems that no one wants to put out any effort in they're vocation, and they certainly don't seem concerned with pleasing they're customers.
So, what do you do, wheather you need your shorts cleaned or a sign hung, it seems to be a difficult situation these days finding "quality".
Roger(from the old school)
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Ever look at your first sign and puke? I do every day cause it's in my front yard. I did it on a Roland 12" Stika the King of all cutters man! Blaakkkkkkk!!!!! Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Arghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
[ July 02, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: John Thompson ]
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Well, I think that's the difference -- those who want to learn and be better today than they were yesterday; and, those who make no effort and really don't care.
The two shops in my area who's "license" I'd like to see pulled have each been in the business for 25 or more years. Their work looks like crap. There is absolutely no effort to make a decent layout or properly form a letter with their brushes.
I wonder if anyone here would object if I posted a few pics of the kind of work I'm talking about.
posted
Glen, have they always done crappy work or do you think they just got sorry and lazy as they got older?
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Trust me.....its always been crappy. And they know better. They are actually brothers, each with his own shop. When their father died, they fought over the shop. Each went his own way and will have little to do with each other.
Their father was a terrific signpainter. Some of his work can still be seen today after 60+ years. I think I need to go on a sign safari and start taking pictures of his work before it all disappears.
I have to live with my mistakes, Doctors bury theirs.
-------------------- Mario G. Lafreniere (Fergie) J&N Signs Winter did show up! Posts: 1257 | From: Chapleau, Ontario | Registered: Jun 1999
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It is just plain sorry, I see it every day in every business. The guys I am talking about know better too. You know whats funny, I never have ever seen them post on a board or at a sign show or anything even related to the industry, I guess they treat it as a 9-5 and just a job cause thats how long they stay at their shops. I am working right now (waiting for some paint to dry that's why I am on this board) and I'll be working at least 2 more hours, and I'll get to work at 8 in the morning till I get done. I guess Rogers right, some people just don't give a @*^& about their work.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I started this post just to see who will rant and rave, so to speak. I've certainly paid my dues as well as helping those not as fortunate or those who haven't the experience. I did not however expect to be put into a trick bag in any form from anyone in particular and will continue to offer my knowledge in what it is I do or what it is I use. Don't let Dave Grundy fool you, he has had experience in the paint world way before he decided to do sticky stuff, although it wasn't signage. I applaud him as well as all the others who find this post necessary and food for thought.
Life is what you make of it.
I will add that, I thank God as well for giving me my talent and the endurance to stick it out all these years.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Well Joey, I've got a story for ya! Just promise not to laugh too hard. Two years ago I closed a 30 yr. construction business that I had with my husband. I decided that it was my turn to enjoy life, so at age 54 I decided that with those vinyl cutter thingies even I could make signs. I had seen some pretty ugly stuff around (like the crappy helvetica on our trucks) and thought I would add a touch of class to the local industry.
I shopped around for a cutter and did my homework on the internet. Without ever having seen the inside of a sign shop I built mine. Then I got an Anagraph AE75-E, 6 - 50 yd. rolls of vinyl, and various shorter rolls of "pretty colors".
I rushed home, hooked it up all alone and started "playing" with it. Been playing ever since. I'm no great talent, but my stuff looks better than a lot of them around here. I thank God for the small amount of talent I have. And Steve and Barb for this bullboard. I found this board shortly before I opened for business. I also am thankful for all the great people here who have not only inspired me, but have taught me as well. You guys & gals have saved me from a lot of expensive and not to mention embarrassing mistakes. The rest of the mistakes, well, I made them on my own!
Well, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it! If I live long enough I will be able to hand letter and who knows, maybe even be the famous 80 yr. old sign granny.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Hey Kathy, I'm glad to see that I am not the only non-veteran here. Glad to see that you have sign-sense too. Lots to learn from these old timers eh?
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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[ July 03, 2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Jackson Smart ]
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1001 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Ive allways thought of my work as a "labor of love" some jobs and some days more labor than love due to the nature of the job and how im feeling about work.splash windows,boats,race cars,plywood,plex,carved wood,vinyl banners (oh ya....there is love in vinyl also!)but for my self I also need to find balance in my work and with my personal life I make signs for a living its what
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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The description you stated sounds a lot like me. In fact I thought you WERE talking about me.
I don't have a licence ( Don't need one here)
Many folks don't think I have much common sense. I own a business called Giggle Ridge. I am a big kid at heart.
And almost every job I take on is new territory for me... I learn as I go.
But don't worry. I didn't take any offence.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8759 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ive allways thought of my work as a "labor of love" some jobs and some days more labor than love due to the nature of the job and how im feeling about work.splash windows,boats,race cars,plywood,plex,carved wood,vinyl banners (oh ya....there is love in vinyl also!)but for my self I also need to find balance in my work and with my personal life I make signs for a living its what I do not what I am.....its a sign shop to me not a ego shop. As long as I allways have plenty of work and I like what im doing and doing it well I really dont worry what the other guy is doing with his business (like I can change him or anything) As long as the other guy is not ripping every one off and giving the sign traid a bad name and trash talking all the other shops and my self.....I dont care what he's doing. And if his work looks that bad....well heck it will only make my work look all that much better!!!! but if he is a good guy I will give him a hand like the other sign guys did for me when I was getting started. The more I think about it I worry more about things like some being UNLICENSED PARENTS!!!! and the need for it now days!
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I've made a few signs that fit that description. Cheap and should have been illegal, but I hope that was in the past. I started working on signs 5 years ago and the first thing I did was get my parish license and paid taxes. I'm no longer in a parish that requires a license. I was using plotters and drawing squiggy lines with them 12-14 years before I used them to letter a sign. Since I don't steal and will not take a job that I don't feel I could handle, I figure I'm legal.
posted
In California there are contractors licenses issued following a test and handing them a bunch of money and getting bonded. There is a perception of competancy by the general public that being lisenced makes you competant. I've seen some put "Licensed. Number 4316" (or something to that effect) on their trucks. When questioning them, that was the number on their town business license for that year!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6805 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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In my little burg there is an older 'letterhead' that doesn't own a computer, undersells me everytime, works out of his house (different city), doesn't collect sales tax and does just ok work... and he is busy all the time! Makes me mad when I sit down on the 18th of every month to determine the amount of sales tax I owe and I realize how much he should be paying to our city coffers....
-------------------- Eric Patzer A.S.A.P. Design Lafayette, CO epatzer@earthlink.net Posts: 208 | From: Lafayette, CO USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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My story is real similar to Kathy's; 30+ years in construction, injured in 1998 so I started doing laser engraving, started working in paint and vinyl a while back. No business license required in my little town, but I do still have a contractor's license from my previous life.
Joey, you need to move up here to the "dry" side of the state; they don't call 'em the Ducks and Beavers for nothing! hehe...
-------------------- Eric Barker Rosewood Design LaGrande,Oregon Posts: 107 | From: La Grande, OR | Registered: May 2002
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A license heh? Well my story is similar to Kathys, I am a father of 4 young kids and I stay home with them fulltime. I wanted a job that I would love to go to work for and signmaking was it (since i have a uncle that owns a shop)
Went to work parttime and found out that family and business don't mix too good with my family, so what i learned from him and books that i have read and now this site....Istay home with my kids, do the work that I love, do the jobs I want and still get to keep some common sense I have,(and that is slipping away as the kids get older)
I am such a newbie to this business but I love art and desinging and woking with my hands and I also see work from proffesionalls with many years of experience and see thier customers looks on thier faces when they see what they wanted done. And it amazes me, cause deep inside I know I could and can do 100% better and make the customer very happy and pleased with the work I do.
As far as license's go, I'll get there soon, but right now i don't need a license to show my talent now!
-------------------- Frank Weidman Waukegan, Il. Posts: 71 | From: Waukegan, Il. | Registered: May 2002
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It takes ALL KINDS....whether you're talented or not....license or not....who gives a rat's patoot! I do what I do and that'll have to DO! I feel the same for everybody else in whatever thay're doing to make ends meet!
posted
A license to paint?????? Next thing you know, they'll tell me I need a license to drive a car!
-------------------- Ben Sherr Street Metal Custom Auto Art 3006 River Rd Hopewell, Va 23860 (804)452-1540 Bjay65@msn.com Posts: 77 | From: Hopewell, Virginia | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ha ha, Rick - I love that license number trick. Why not. I put "Since 1944" under my name. too. I don't say I've been painting signs since then, just Mike Languein, SignPainter -- Since 1944 -- Let'em figure it out.
I also put my phone numbers on my truck signs once stacked up. Same number, I only had 1 phone, but if nobody noticed it looked like I had a whole bank of them or different shops. Sometimes a customer would call and say "I called on your 285 number" Yeah, and...?
Once I painted a big 6 on my hood and put "Cylinders" in the middle of it, small. I had people calling saying they took my phone number off of my "Truck number 6" Morons. They get what they deserve. As W.C. used to say, "Never smarten up a chump"
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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