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Last week was one of those unusual periods in which I kept getting a question which was very rare a few years ago.
While discussing new sign projects with some prospective clients there were three occasions (in one week) in which they asked, "Do I need to go to a graphic artists to get these designed or can you do that?". And this was while sitting in a showroom filled with photos and samples of work that I had done.
It is not unusual to have someone ask, "Did you do all these?", while looking at the showroom wall. My first inclination is to say, "No, I bought them all at Wal-Mart". That question has been an old standby that has plagued us all for years.
But lately I am seeing more and more people surprised that we signfolks can design stuff. Also last week, I had a customer come in to order some signs for the food courts for our local school system. He had gone to an advertising agency to get them designed and then brought me a CD. When he walked in I was finishing up a design for a local Bed and Breakfast. His first statement was "Oh, I didn't know that you did design too. I could have just come to you first." My initial reaction was "Duh". Many of the designs I get from "graphic artists" have to be modified for signage or rebuilt completely.
More and more I get the statement, "I didn't know that you were a graphic artist".
Has this been typical of your area also? What do you believe to be the cause for the assumption that because we are in the sign business we know nothing of design?
For some time I have contemplated changing the name of my business and this last week just about settled the question. Soon, my shop will be known as "Chapman Design Studio" rather than "Chapman Sign Studio". I wonder if anyone will notice the difference.
And by the way, can anyone give me a definition of "graphic artist"? I know several people who say they are, but I can't figure out what they do.
[ July 01, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am thinking of changing mine to JTT Signs & Graphic Design just because my current name JTT Graphics confuses people around my area. Even though on my signs and flyers, it says "JTT Graphics" with "Signs and Auto Graphics" as the subtitile, I'll have people come up when they see me doing a sign and say "I didn't Know you made signs too." Go figure, I guess you can't win for losing. I think that the name Graphic Design just lends a little to make your name sound more like a professional with more training even if it isn't that way. Seems like people want everybody to have some kind of schooling or training these days. I guess it is just a mind thing.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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The problems that you describe are universal in the creative arts. I consider myself a graphic designer and my definition just helps describe some of the different types of services and projects that I do on a regular basis. I design logos, advertising material, cd covers, screenprinted t-shirts, websites, signs & banners, yellow page ads, corporate identities, etc., etc., etc., etc..... I don't do just one of these things ALL the time, EVERY day. so GRAPHIC DESIGNER is just a blanket title. I have designed artwork for t-shirts for about 10 years, and a some of my clients just thought that was all I did:"the t-shirt" guy. I do alot of logo development, and some of the clients then take the logo to 15 different place to have certain jobs done, when I provide all the same services in-house. they just didn't think of me as a "full-service ad agency" (OK- ad agency is a dirty word!) I am trying to do a better job of educating my clients on the many services that I can provide, and my desire to be the first person that they call on any project that they have. If I can't do or just don't provide what they are looking for I can sub it out or refer them to someone who does. I have always thought that the sign industry has the bulk of great designers. I would have a sign guy design something for me way before I would let a "ad agency" attempt it.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1737 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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A health insurance provider is using a Graphic Artist angle for it's radio ad. It's cool. Features a neurotic female graphic artist depressed about working alone all the time an not having a date in 3 months worring where the announcer heard that bit of information. I was thinking that the "Graphic Artist" cyber definition was going to be a joke, but it really seems that it is causing some problems for traditional occupations. I'm thinking that they are trying to grab too much of a cut of the pie. Service bureaus and printing interests are getting to talk to the client after a large amount has been spent and the client feels that they have paid the larger portion of the budget on design work. Most of the graphic artists are not even considereing anything but web advertising. A good commercial artist was a much better value a few years ago.
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Santo - I'm not disagreeing with you, but trying to get a handle on the terms. What is the difference between a "graphic artist" and a "commercial artist"? And how does the public view the difference, if there is any?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've enjoyed your design courses and have learned alot from them at the BIG shows. I'm really an engineer that got laid off a few years ago. I'm not even remotely close to having the skills that you possess but I'm learning. Back to your point - with all the switching of titles so that people will feel more important why don't we tell folks that we are Graphic Sign & Design Enigineers
One of my pet peve's is that everyone gets to wrapped up in titles as there aren't secretaries anymore but admin assistants, garbage men are sanitation engineers, etc. Of course this is "progress" and folks think they need to go to a "specialist" because that is the only thing the specialist does. Little does the specialist know that most of the time we have to "re-engineer" thier files to work with our cutting/printing software.
I guess I don't have any solutions but maybe add the design in your business name and see if that draws more folks in. When customers come in say that we are your "full service" sign shop. I say "from design to sign" we can do it!
Have a great day down in TX Raymond.
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
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I have a customer, who also happens to be an old friend. I told him he needed a logo that he could put on all his advertising(vehicle signs, stickers, bus cards, t-shirts, etc.). He got real excited about the idea, so I told him I would start working on one for him. His response was " Oh, do you know a good graphic designer?". I said "Yeah, me!". He loved the logo I designed, so I guess now I'm a graphic designer; at least to him.
-------------------- Eric Barker Rosewood Design LaGrande,Oregon Posts: 107 | From: La Grande, OR | Registered: May 2002
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Folk's perception of a graphic designer or comercial artist may differ from area to area.
We are in the process of changing our name from Sawatzky's Imagination Corporation to Giggle Ridge Studios. The former worked well but with our change of location and by coincidence our former logo has a dragon that for many resembles a local established park's dinosaur. (I don't see the connection)
It is all about perception.
Folks will always ask stupicd questions and be confused. I was just finishing up a mural two days ago. A fellow who had seem me do the whole thing (it was 40 feet long) asked me if I was an artist. I replied I was. He then asked me if I did the whole thing. (He had watched me do it) He then asked me if I got paid for it. I just smiled and went back to work. And the three days I was there I didn't hear much more intelligent comments. The reality was of the 100 or so tradesmen and managers there working on site, I was being paid the highest by far. (A fact they didn't need to know)
Our new name will locate us (in relation to our other established business) It will also give folks a clue as to what we do. It will also let me put just one name on the truck for both businesses.
Good luck in your struggle. Its something I have wrestled with all my professional life too.
Just what is it I do and what do I call myself? Even I don't know the answer for each day it is different. Our final choice Giggle Ridge Studios sums it up best for me. Giggle Ridge Studios... 'my laughing place'.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8760 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Brian called it right-- with all the renaming of job titles for whatever reason---and also the poor grasp of English that so many seem to have, I don't believe it matters two hoots in hell what we call ourselves. The language is full of euphemisms these days, and all it does is lead to confusion.
Have always thought that graphic artists were dealing primarily with pictures, and designers with letters and pictures.
FWIW.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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I think in this trade, each one of us are at different levels of graphic design. We deal with the same principles of design, as those who work with print. In my end of it, the term "Environmental Graphic Design" denotes all aspects of the trade, though I find the term confusing and to seperate from graphic design and sign design. I guess in the end when I am asked what I do, I start with " I am an Environmental Graphic Designer" and if that doesn't impress them, I say Im a sign guy. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ray, I don't know the difference or if there is a good defintion. The fact that the Graphic artist types seem to be more in the pocket of the customer while the commercial artists were fee based and more defined. The several commercial artists I dealt with in the past took their work seriously and sitting with them for a time and explaining the need and purpose always resulted in a suitable, usable piece. I can't say that for the Graphic Artist types I've met. One even explained to me that, if a business wanted to be successful, they should do exactly as he said. That meant all the flyers, corporate identification, signs, press releases, magazine and newspaper ads should be done by him. In effect, he was a 1 person design team that was subbing out everything labor related. No bad if that's your niche and it's profitable. I personally felt he should be called a start-up consultant or a publicity agent. It seems that many specialties are trying to blend and take shares of the other guy's pie. I don't have as much of a problem with people who are willing to do the upmost to acheive, but for those who are just trying to get a stack of jobs as a backlog and doing substandard work is don't have much respect.
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It sure is confusing to John & Jane Public. I graduated college with a degree in "Commercial Art" and my first job was in "Graphic Arts". I never knew what each title meant and still don't!
I don't care too much about what I'm called as long as it's spelled right on the check!!
D
-------------------- Dan Donnelly Atlanta, GA Posts: 139 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 1999
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when i had the storfront shop....i would always get somebody(mostly 18-20 yr olds)comin in askin for a job. then they would tell me that they were a "graphic artist"......i said ok...and picked up a legal notepad and a #2 pencil...and would hand it to them ....they look at me and say whats this? id tell em to draw me something. next line was always the same." oh iam a graphic artist on the computer, i cant even draw a stick figure." so to most people today anyone with a GRAPHIC PROGRAM on a COMPUTER is now GRAPHIC ARTIST. am i one...welllll...for the right amount of MONEY, ill dress up in fishnets and and a skirt ...and you can call me anyname you want!!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Early on, I had similar problems conveying to people what I did. I am a graphic design, web designer, and sign designer. I named my company Graphic D-Signs, Inc., with the secondary tag line "Business Image Solutions" because I wanted people to know that we offered a total solution to their marketing and advertising needs.
If people aren't aware that you offer traditional graphic design, maybe you need to try and refocus your efforts on your own self promotion, and self image. The name change is a good one, right off the bat. I always think of us as image architects, and unfortunately, having the word "Sign" in your name lends the impression that maybe thats all you do. And most peole are too ignorant to think that you just dont do the nuts and bolts things related to signs, but also the "branins" behing effective signs, and graphic design.
My situation is different because I don't do as much volume in sign related sales as I do in other advertising work (Ie. web, print, graphic design). BUt when someone comes to me for signage (usually just truck lettering) I'll tell em that we are an ad agency that specializes in vehicle advertising. Most havent heard the term, vehicle advertising. But all the sudden, its not letters stuck on the truck.
Its not really all smoke and mirrors, but image and the manner in which is presented so critical.
The other problem Ray, is that you work on a PC. Of course, if you were on a Mac, people would instantly know you were a graphic artist!
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Hey Old Paint, You must have a twin, during a job interview some ol' sign guy did the same thing to me, except I asked him "What do you want me to draw?" He said "A sign" I asked him a slew of questions like what type of business, what was the budget, what kind of sign, what did the building look like, what was the taste of the client, what kind of sign was allowed on the building, was a logo supplied-he got the point, I got the job, though I didnt end up taking it, but I do side work for him now and then, and I get to sketch with a pencil and work the computer, which is why I do it for him for next to nothing. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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"Graphic Artist" or "Graphic Designer" is a loose term for "bum that went to school to learn how to draw on a computer and learn color theory, but has no real tangible experience at anything."
Maybe back in the old days it had more meaning but nowadays, I get email after email from "Graphic Designers" that couldn't design their way out of a paper bag. Some of them don't even know what vector art is, they think Photoshop and Quark are the only software available for graphics work.
I think OP has a point too (it's a good thing his hair covers it up nicely).. Take away their computer and they're lost.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Dan, yes I guess I'm just going to have to break down and get a Mac because all those snooty "graphic artists" are looking down their noses at me because I use a PC....don't hold your breath, though. I'm still trying to figure out how to work Photoshop.
Thanks for all the comments, folks. I guess my assumption was right - the terms we use to describe ourselves are rather vague, with as many different interpretations as there are people. There are some potential clients that look for the title when choosing a designer and some make a choice by previous work or a recommendation, and I guess some just take a poke and are satisfied with whatever comes up. The proof is still in the pudding, so we eventually have to follow up our words with actions...and that is what will determine if we are professionals or not.
My degree is not in any art or design field - actually it is in biology and physical education, but I have often wondered, what courses do you take to get a degree in graphic arts? Maybe I will go back to school in my retirement years and get a degree in whatever it is that I am doing now.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think the term "graphic" has become vague to the point of conveying no contextual information; it's right up there with "multimedia". If someone says they are a graphic artist, you still have no idea what they actually DO all day.
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If you think about it, the term sign designer or artist is vague also. I used to work in small shops where design was a pencil sketch or a printout, for truck doors or 4x8 sign, and get 100 bucks for design at the very most, now I work on projects with $75,000 for design, and $1,000,000 construction budgets, that include handpainted murals, electrical and non electrical dimensional signs, I guess we are all at different levels of signage as well, and different terminology apply to different levels, we use Macs (design) and P.C.s (planning) if that means anything. Hey Raymond as far as college, I went to Hardknocks School , and I seem to be doing okay with my degree. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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"Graphic Artist" or "Graphic Designer" is a loose term for "bum that went to school to learn how to draw on a computer and learn color theory, but has no real tangible experience at anything."
Well then I guess I'm a bum, and don't know much about color theory. Damn, and here I was thinking I was pretty good at this stuff!
Come on Mike, don't slay us all! I know a lot of college educated designers aren't rocket scientists, especially when it comes to sign design - but some us gained a lot of valuable experience and insight at college - and learned some marketing and advertising theory to go along with good design skills.
Having worked in a sign shop during before and during college, maybe I'm an exception. But putting the tools to use that I learned at both places is what helps set me apart today.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Jeremy Vecoli and Rick Chavez make interesting points about the vagueness of several terms in common useage these days. "Graphic", "multimedia","sign designer", and "artist".
There is one other one that I have grown to dislike and detest intensely-------"image".
Dan A., this is not a swipe at you personally.
Someone I was close to many years ago was big on "image", appearances were everything----- nice clothes, nice car, the whole ball of wax. The reality of it was bills running way ahead of income, bill collectors showing up at odd times and places. In spite of this "image" was still uppermost in this person's mind.
Then you have the people who spend an hour or so in church on Sunday---oh, such fine upstanding citizens----and then the rest of the six days and twenty some odd hours, behave in such a way that I wouldn't let them in my home, or near my daughter if I had one.
Now we come to the institutions of the day; the well-known church scandals, corporate businesses, such as Enron, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom, the brokerage houses and their intentionally bad advice, the utilities engineering the Western power crisis last year, tobacco companies telling about all the good they do, and the list goes on and on.
All these people and institutions keep shooting their "image" in the foot, over and over, when the "reality" of who, and what they are says something altogether different.
Given all of the above, please forgive me if I don't get too enthused about "image." Give me WYSIWYG, or "reality" any day.
FWIW, from the little kid and me.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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I agree the term has been thrown around quite a bit, but there are quite a few "graphic artists" around that can do some mean stuff. Dan for one, and Doug Downey for another. Ive used the term for myself also, cause Im not held to just doing signwork. Sometimes when you design a logo, it wont even be used for a sign, hence there you would be called a graphic artist or designer. Although I have gotten use to designing everything in illustrator which is vector format, I sometimes design in photoshop and others not even thinking about vectors. And doing it with a pencil is just about the coolest thing I can do. I give great thanks that I can draw, and wish everyone could to get that feeling of being able to put whats in your mind onto paper. But some people like Dan, can do it just as well with a computer. I changed my name from Deaton Signs to Deaton Design for the same reason Ray was talking about. Lettin em know we can do it all. And Ray, you are definitely an artist!
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Raymond, the terms ARE confusing, and have been confusing for a long time (at least fifty years, since the terms have been in common use).
Over the years I have been a member of the American Institute of Graphic Artists (AIGA), the Graphic Arts Guild (GAG), the New York Type Directors Club. All three of those organizations have attempted to address "professional standards", ethics and definitions of who is, and isn't, a "graphic artist", "commercial artist", "graphic designer", and all the other variations.
Dan is right -- you might need to refresh your marketing approach if people don't know you design AND produce signs. as the Edge and other digital production methods become more common, clients will become MORE confused about who designs and who produces the designs.
I would hazard a guess that today, in 2002, 90 PERCENT of the signs people see are not designed by the people who produce them, and not even designed by the same company that produces them. MOST signs -- think about Budweiser's beer trucks, POP displays, bus wraps, billboards, and special event banners, for instance -- are designed by ad agencies and produced by sign production specialists.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Dan, you should already know you aren't included in my generalization, where's your confidence, man?
I'm speaking of the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of "Graphic Artists" that trade schools are pumping out and giving a false sense of their worth in the market. The market is FLOODED with people calling themselves graphic designers yet don't deserve the title. They put in their 6 months at a trade school or took the 2 day, 16 hour crash course in Photoshop and all of a sudden they're qualified to give themselves a title?? Their poor abilities then sour everyone else's perception of what a graphic designer is, so now when you call yourself a graphic designer it cheapens your image in the eyes of your customer.
I'm not too hung up on titles (and frankly I do too many different things to be categorized into one group) but if I had to give myself one, it would be "Design Engineer" to describe my ability to design literally anything imagineable, build protoypes of it, and perform the engineering work to make it functional whether it's a web site or a tangible product.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Hi Raymond. Back in the 60's and 70's, before the proliferation of home-based PC'c and Mac's, a Graphic Designer was a skilled individual who's job was to take a design concept, and make that into a published reality. Such an individual was familiar with type, and knew how to specify the correct point sizes for text and headlines, so that a submitted typewritten manuscript, and illustrations and photographs, were produced within the correct number of pages. This individual could handle anything from a full color Sears catalogue, numbering 300 or so pages, to a simple business card design. He or she was familiar with all major reproduction methods, and the mechanical requirements for each. These included letterpress, offset, rotogravure, seriography, and electrostatic processes.They would know about such things as press bleed requirements, imposition, bindery and folding methology, as well as diecutting, and lamination. In short, they were the individuals who made the Art Directors and Creative Directors at the Ad Agencys look like THEY knew what they were doing.
With the introduction of the personal PC and Mac, and the availability of Desktop Publishing programs, the term/title has lost a lot of it's former lustre. Many folks out there claim to be Graphic Designers, but I suspect that few of them would have the necessary knowledge to do many of the tasks listed above. Just because an individual is capable of designing an acceptable logo, it should not automatically qualify them to proclaim themselves as "Graphic Designers".
Most people who lay claim to this title/term/job description, have little actual knowledge of all that such a claim implies. There are also a number of such "qualified" individuals who have raised the bar and ventured into electronic media to become Website Designers, and are very well versed in that area IN ADDITION to the previously listed areas of expertise.
One thing that I have observed regarding designs produced by Graphic Designers, is their tendancy to "design for the print media", and as a result, their efforts at sign design sometimes suffer. What looks good at "arms length" will not necessarily look good as a sign design....different media, different governing criteria.
Good Graphic Designers will work with sign people to improve the overall design and effectivness. Some however, will never listen to a suggestion from a "lowly signperson" and insist on having the print biased design produced according to their specifications, and then wonder why the client expresses dissatisfaction on seeing the finished design.
Am I a Graphic Designer....nope...definately not qualified!
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Donna said: "Sometimes you have to be a bit vague to say more." There is quite a bit of truth in that statement. If we try to define ourselves too precisely at the moment, we may handcuff ourselves perceptually in the future when technology changes.
I chose my company name "A Sign of Excellence" to be a bit generic so that it would fit whatever direction the market, technology, my skills and experience went. Had I named the company two decades ago "Dave's Sandblasted Redwood Signs", I would be limiting myself unless I changed the name. How would I have gotten to sell digital graphics or masonry with a name like that?
Of course, then there are the extreme generic names, such as Accenture. What on earth do they do? They have to advertise, advertise, advertise their kingdom because the name doesn't tell anything.
Personally, I describe myself as someone who designs sign systems. Raymond Chapman knows I cannot hand letter worth a flip (I wish I could but I always had a good sign writer working for me). We do, however, produce some very nice sign packages using other technologies and subbing out the hand lettering.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5105 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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David - you are a great signman, even though you never learned how to hand letter. When David and I would meet at those early Letterhead gatherings (and even now) my first question would be, "Have you learned how to letter, yet?"
David is one of those talented people who have found the balance between the creative world and the business world. How many of us can say we make sales calls in our own airplane?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Raymond, I'm not sure what the requirements for a Graphic Design related degree is today, but back when I was one of the "bums that learned color theory" you had to take classes in basic design, typography, illustration, lots of drawing classes, some photography etc. This was back in the late 80's, computers were still a novelty, so we learned how to do everything by hand. I spent a lot of time learning how to illustrate products using markers to render the graphics, as well as lots of pen and ink, airbrush, gouche and the like. There was a lot of tension between the "Fine Art people" and the "Commercial Art people". The best education that I recieved was freelancing just about every job that came my way, and working in a couple of sign shops while I was still in college. Creating, designing, drawing, painting... this is my passion, always has been. I am thankful that I have the opportunity to do what I love doing. Getting paid to do it is the added bonus!
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1737 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ken Henry...you said it the best buddy! Only thing is, you made me feel old and I'm ONLY 43! I actually knew exactly what you were talking about. All the stuff of the old days. I actually used to do all that...by hand! Kinda forgot after doing most of it on the PC or Mac nowadays.
And, I am proud to say that I am one of those "graphic artist" types. Graphic Designer, Designer, Artist, Sign Artist, etc., etc. And, I am damn good at what I do. I have recently changed the name of my biz from Screaming Beaver Graphics to Gitano Design to show folks that I can do whatever they need done and if I don't know how, I figure it out before they come to pick-up their work. Some folks are a little touchy when it comes to Ad Agencies or Graphic Artists or Architects (which I have worked for all of the above) but the same goes in the sign industry. Half the graphic artists I know couldn't design anything nice to save their lives and the same goes for some sign folks I know. Some are quicky-sticky and some are the Bruce Bowers, Glenn Taylors of the sign world, who just blow everybody outta the water with their outstanding work and knowledge. Since coming to Letterheads and meeting a sign artist that has been doing it for 50 years, I have the utmost respect for all of y'all. I wish I knew 1/2 of what I'm sure alot of you have forgotten in your sign experience.
Also, just 'cuz one person designs more on a PC than using a pencil, doesn't make them less creative. As for me, I couldn't install a sign to save my life but I can design it for you. So, call me what you want, just call me to pick up my check.
-------------------- John Cordova Gitano Design Studio Albuquerque, NM Posts: 268 | From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks, Raymond...the check is in the mail. Now, I need to get the business side of me off the backside and get back to work. Actually, the expression "back to work" implies that I have actually been working. Maybe I should say "I ought to get off the Bullboad and GET to work." The airplane needs an annual. They don't give those away.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5105 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I had a rather interesting conversation with a customer this morning. He has a large truck he wants lettered for a school located 60 miles away from here.
I asked him why would he come all the way over here from Raleigh to see us. Especially, since there are plenty of sign shops over there. He said it was because they were sign shops and we weren't.
I kinda scratched my head on that one. We are a sign shop.
He said "no, CGI is a graphics company". Long story short, his point was that we were more than just someone who stuck letters on a board or slung paint wherever. We showed in interest and an ability in doing something different. We put design into what we did.
Well, I'm feeling pretty good about myself for the moment. He just made my day.
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As a relative novice with only about 12 years experience since I discovered the sign industry, & 6 years of business experience, I think that the terms that bring the right customers in are the right terms.
Regardless of what "Graphic Designer" meant before, or means to anyone else, from a marketing standpoint, if this term works to raise awareness of my sign design ability to my customers then I consider it fair game.
quote: Just because an individual is capable of designing an acceptable logo, it should not automatically qualify them to proclaim themselves as "Graphic Designers".
Ken, you raised many excellent points, and I would have agreed with the above quote 10 years ago. Like I think Mike said, the term has become watered down over time, & if it gets me more design work, I don't feel that I should place more meaning on the term then todays general public does.
I got a degree in drafting, but I wouldn't consider calling myself an Architect. If the term Graphic Designer still commanded the respect it once did, I'd settle for sign guy.
I actually have not called myself a Graphic Designer yet, but thought I would add it to this years yellow page ad. If I get too much call for intense pre-print Sears catalogue type stuff, I'll go back to sign guy again.
[ July 02, 2002, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
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Am I a Graphic Artist? Only when I'm applying for a loan . Seriously though, in these parts there seems to be a public view that a "Graphic Artist" is a professional, and a Sign Painter is just...well... some guy painting signs in his garage.
My card reads "Sign Artist", I think this is a comfortable compromise for a title, no?
-------------------- Jon Androsky Posts: 438 | From: Williamsport, PA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Wow!!! So now we want to call ourselves something other than what we actually are, in hopes of attracting or educating ignorant folk who don't know the difference? What's wrong with Professional Sign designer?? Has it come down to us being ashamed or apologetic for what we actually do?? Where's the "Keepers Of The Craft" spirit in that attitude? I'm not ashamed or embarrased to be known as a signpainter, and wouldn't think of laying claim to another person's job description, watered down though it may be. Sign people have shown real resentment toward new people entering this trade with little more than a vinyl cutter and a sign making program. Don't you think that perhaps Graphic Designers might also resent such an intrusion by folks with comparably little knowledge of that sphere of endeavor?
By all means, sell your design abilities..your initial contact with your clients will afford you those opportunities. A lot of small businesses usually FIRST have need for a sign, before they have ANY contact with ad agencies. That means that you often have FIRST SHOT at providing them with their initial Logo Design. If you're not managing to get your fair share of design work with that kind of advantage, then perhaps it may be time to polish up your selling skills, rather than changing hats.
Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I've made my living as a Signpainter since 1972. I'm proud of that fact, and still passionate about what I do, and still attempt to improve daily. Because of that, I won't be laying claim to anyone else's shingle, but will attempt to make mine a bit more attractive.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Have to say I agree with Ken wholeheartedly.
Never been ashamed of being "just a signpainter"-- though maybe I ought to add vinyl jockey to the mix. Have also never thought of myself as a Great Artiste, more like a mechanic of letters.
If there is only one thing I've learned in life, it is to go through it with a fair dose of humility. It is one thing to live on a pedestal of one's own building, and the view is great from there. However, reach too far, and the fall from said pedestal will give one a world of hurt.
FWIW, and I hope the little kid picks up on this philosophy in his endeavors.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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In the early days of the Letterhead movement, Noel Weber was being interviewed and he referred to himself as a "lettering artist" - I have always thought that was a good name to wear. Today, with our profession taking a different course, I'm not sure the general public would know what that meant. Sounds more like a calligrapher, today.
Lots of good ideas here.
Now, I have to go coat out some boards. What would you call that?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Depending on whether you are using water based, solvent based or two part paint, I think your job description for that is Aqueous, Volatile or Catalyzed Protective Coatings Application Engineer. Now go ask your wife for a raise.
I REALLY need to get back to work. Maybe it’s because I did not have my coffee today.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5105 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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