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While Jeanne and I were in Rhode Island a few weeks ago for the B.I.G. Show we made a side trip to the John F. Kennedy Library in Boston. Since he was President during our teen years and was assinated here in Texas while I was a college student, it was an unusually interesting exhibit. I remembered seeing history as it happened.
However, one thing really bothered me. Each exhibit tried to reproduce every thing just as it was in the 50's and 60's, down to last detail...except, in some places where lettering had to be added, such as door lettering or an awning, they used computer cut vinyl. Maybe they didn't know that signs were hand lettered back in the 60's.
The same thing happened a few years ago when we visited the MGM theme park in Las Vegas. The street was a reproduction of an early 1900's city but the signs were done in vinyl...some in Brush Script!
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Raymond it may be due to the fact that due to misinformation many folks believe that hand lettering is a thing of the past. I continually have potential clients ask me in disbelief if I still hand letter signs. I was actually walking by a fellow in town here once doing vinyl lettering on a window and asked why they didn't do that the old fashioned way with a brush and paint,...without turning around he remarked "Nobody hand letters anymore, it's all done with computers." I just remarked "oh really?" and walked away before he had a chance to turn around and see me in my work jeans and went to go do a gold job,...Seems it is often as not easier for some folks to disinform the public for their own benifit,...Sad thing is,... in many places this myth is perpetuated to the point that it has become public opinion.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The local museum repainted its caboose prior to the annual ice cream social. My job was to see that the lettering was properly restored. Our former shop is a vinyl shop, so we hired an established local signwriter.
The folks who watched him do the lettering seemed amazed that a human with a brush could actually paint letters without modern electronics, just the trusty mahlstick and pounce pattern.
The caboose looks great, by the way. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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On that same trip to Las Vegas we went through the Forum at Caesar's Palace and expected to see some really first class signage at the shops, especially the jewelry stores. Nope. One of the classiest shops there (a top notch jewelry place) had imitation gold vinyl for their window lettering. At least they could have use SignGold!
In my seminars I usually ask how many in the crowd hand letter. Five years ago there would three of four, but now I'm lucky if one person holds up their hand. And they are always old geezers like me. Now, I know that those shows are more geared to computer folks, but it does make me feel like a relic of the past. Even more so when I mention folks like Gary Anderson and Noel Weber and get that "deer in the headlights" look.
We have a tendency to remember how good the "good old days" were, but forget the drudgery of hand lettering all day long on a set of pool rules. For me, I will take today where we have the best tools to make the job go so much easier and faster. It does feel good to have a brush in your hand from time to time, but not all day long.
Fifty years from now those old geezers that are today's teens will be remembering the good old days when you actually had to type information into a computer.
The times they are a changing.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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As a designer now, I get dissappointed to see vinyl where I had called out hand painted, including photo references to aging and wear. Budgets get cut to a point where vinyl is the only alternative to a good quality job, I have around 35 typographic reference booke I use when designing period signage and it saddens me to see a font replaced when someone thinks a computerized clean font works better than the original type, I recently had a chance to see a theme park in Spain I got to work on, used all hand painting and even weathered and antiqued how we specified it. I only wished I could have flown over to see them do it, the consultant was impressed and the pictures looked pretty good. I hope it has't come to the point where vinyl replaces paint when it's specified, but it already seems that most of the general public has bought into vinyl, and that's to bad. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Greenfield Village and Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn have used computer vinyl on exhibits such as a restored antique store and such. It was hard to believe that curators would do such things.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Ray, I've seen alot of stuff which you explained in this post but have yet to see period carnivals use computer cut vinyl lettering or graphics. Conklin Shows out of Ontario has an 1800's complete carnival which is shown from time to time at CNE in Toronto. Most of the work was done by their workers in both signage and building.
Circus Circus in Las Vegas during the 80's had games etc where all the lettering was hand painted as per owners request. I guess its just what ones knowledge is in that determines ones memories of what the early days were really like.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Hello Raymond. Perhaps there's some real value in being a modern-day "dinosaur" who hand letters. It might be a thought to contact historical societies, restoration specialists, and even architects, informing them that you're able and willing to do this type of work. It seems that whenever a "restoration project' is undertaken these days, that there's usually a significant amount of monies raised and dispersed to insure "historical accuracy". This might be a market that you or others who actually do hand lettering can tap into, and the real beauty is that there won't be ANY competition from the vinyl shops or other cutthroats.
I think that I'm going to do a bit of research over the weekend and find out just who's done some recent restoration work in this area, contact those folks, and perhaps get to work on some of those myself. If I'm going to be considered to be "an old fart with a brush & paint", then I might as well cash in on being somewhat unique.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Hi Ken, You might also try the Society of Environmental Graphic Designers, this organization specializes in high end graphics and signage, while most of the members are designers, there are vendors to them, who you can partner with. Most work involves many types of signs, but we pretty much use a select few to make these signs, it seems the hand painted signs tag along, but if you partner with the right companies you can do work all around the country, or the world. The website is www.segd.org Good reference books for this are "Designing and Planning Environmental Graphics" and "Urban Entertainment Graphics" both these books have the designer and manufacturer names for you to contact, to offer your services. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I don't think it is misinformation,honest belives, or other terms for lazyness on the publics part. With all the "PERIOD"letter styles and panels being produced for vinyl. It seems a lack of willingness on the publics part to search out "letterheads"
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I noticed vinyl lettering in some theme parks in Vegas too....but man did you check out all the murals on the ceilings and walls in the Bellagio, Paris, New York New York, and all the other fancy hotels?? It is great in Vegas! There are still lots of handpainted things to see.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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...20 years ago I couldn't even spell "dinosuar"....now I are one!
Paint STILL rules!!!!
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Youll be happy to hear that Giggle Ridge is ALL handpainted.
The designer (me) specified all hand painting... every square inch. There's magic in a careful blend done with old fashioned fitches.
It does take a while to do a half acre park with a one inch brush though. But the blends are awesome! And it does look good!
And the lettering is all hand done. Very period looking... with my own original wiggly font and all.
And Steve... I finally did the lettering on the back of our sign last week. It even almost matches the front.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think the ones that hurt me the most are Antique stores with vinyl letters stuck on - but out here "restoring" Olde Towne areas is a big enterprise, and you guessed it, Helvetica Medium in 3 inch white vinyl about 3 degrees running downhill. One of those Olde Townes out here made all the merchants remove all the neon cans because they wanted the place to look like Genuine 1920s. And vinyl signage went on the windows. And you can't tell them neon came into vogue around 1880. So Disney World is all vinyl? Disneyland out here still uses some hand done work, but it's becoming more and more rare. They firmly believe the world is becoming digital even though a lot of it fails miserably and has to be replaced by hand work... Oh, well...
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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i did a high dollar antique store her in town. the guy called me and wanted me to put vinyl letters on some 1"x 12" s he had. when i saw the boards.....i looked at em and said...let me paint the letters will look a lot better and make the ends of the boards look like they are old broken boards.... he said ok... i painted the boards beige/ivory and did a old style 1800's letter in blue...and he loves em!!!! his building has that old westgeneral store look..and these signs just set him apart from everything else near him.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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When the curators of museums that promote historical themes don't care anymore, you can't blame the public. In my town is the Mystic Seaport Museum, which is on par with Williamsburg and Dearborn Village, and while the signs on the period shops in the museum village are still paint, everything else is vinyl. It's all about priorities. They require things like models of wooden ships to be actual wood - a friend does amazing ship models, but the Seaport won't buy them because he builds hulls from HDU. Like lots of people, signs are an annoying necessity, rather than a representation of anything historic. It's seems to be a blind spot with many historians and curators.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I remember about 18 years ago or so, there was a guy in my small town I was living in at the time that did excellent lettering. He was one of the first to get a vinyl machine. He told me he wasn't going to paint at all anymore, and this was the way of the future. I thought he had lost his mind! There was no way anyone could be in the sign business doing only vinyl! Boy was I wrong. Now I'm the minority. I often think of how nice his lettering was, and what a shame that he gave it up. I work at a commercial shop. I have gone from lettering all day, every day, to lettering occasionally. I agree with Henry. When the people are bored with, or sick of the viny, I'll be there to take up the slack. I have seen a bunch of antique race cars restored using viny lettering also. Makes me want to smack the people. Right after I stop puking. There will always be the people who do admire, and appreciate hand lettering, etc.
-------------------- Luke S. Luke Scanlan Artistry Ocala, Fl. lukescanlan@cox.net Posts: 249 | From: Ocala, Florida | Registered: Nov 2001
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A friend of mine is a train buff and a real good sign painter, and like me, he loves the old fashioned stuff. He got a job doing a bunch of signs for a train museum out here a while back, they have a lot of old coal and wood burners and stuff from back in the days - he did some super nice period signs for them and when he deliverd them they took a look and the head man said "Why do they look like THAT?" All their other signage is vinyl. They spend millions restoring the trains. Hundreds on their signs. It hurts. Oh, how it hurts! Somewhere an electric chair is waiting...
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Ray, I know the feeling well, a few years ago made a trip to the Czech Republic, Prague to be specific. This is where my parents came from and I thought there would be so much old world hand lettering to enjoy.No such luck, vinyl letters were everywhere much to my dissapointment. The only thing that saved the trip for me was all the beautiful hand carved statues.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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It's sad is'nt it, to think that my old Gerber 4A is now a dinosaur and will soon be in a museum itself. Really though this is where the whole industry has fallen apart. The modern day vinyl jockeys don't understand what went into a hand written sign and that is why sign prices are gradually falling away to nothing. If they had to spend a day second coating lettering etc. they would realize that the public were paying the price and prepared to do so, until these jerks got themselves into the trade. I'm ready, so flame away.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm reading a book the other day and in the story the author makes reference to "A hand lettered sign..." it was on a door or something, and I start wondering "How would anybody know?" the book was written around 1947 or so, Hand lettered was all there was, unless you got it from a printer...then it dawns on me = he means "Scrawled", sloppy, as with a grease pencil or lipstick (no felt markers in '47) and I suppose that is what people think we mean when we advertise "Hand Lettering". We're going to grab a Marx-A-Lot and bang out a Kindergarten looking mess just like they would, and want to get paid for it. There's no way they're going to want it, can't understand why anybody would do it and the few that actually get to see the process and the result are astounded. So of course I keep hearing about "What a professional so and so is" (with a plotter) or "What a genius" or "What a great artist". Gag me with a fork... Once in a while a prospect will be picking my brain about a 50 dollar job and say "Now how are ya gonna do this here? Gonna 'Digitize' it? Huh?" I say "Yes" -- with these magic digits on the end of my hand." They never get it.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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It really IS sad!!!! What a terrible world it has become!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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You said it, Dave --- I'm going out in the garden, now, and eat WORMS! That'll show 'em.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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