posted
My sign stuff is basically an "after hours" type operation....very small and not a real big deal. I feel I do quality work though, and charge it's worth (don't give it away).
My question is this: I had a guy recently that "wanted to see" what his logo would look like on his van in a few different color combos. I spent the time duplicating his logo, and printed out copies of it showing how it might look in different colors.
He told me at the outset that he had a couple vans and being I was doing the preliminary work that he would make certain I did the job (he is the owner).
He seemed honest enough, so I put the time into it a couple evenings and mailed him the comps.
Hadn't heard back in a couple weeks...so I called him yesterday. His wife answered and said they were still going to do it but had other pressing job issues right now. She sounded kind of funny on the phone though...so I'm like paranoid and thinking they just decided to have someone else do it or something.
So my question is...in what way or form do you present to your customers that they must pay a certain amount before a job is even started? Verbally stated? Written, signed document? Cash in Hand?
I always feel funny about telling someone, "Hey, I'd be happy to do this job, but I need X amt. of dollars to start it." I shouldn't, but I do. I feel like most people are referrals, and I'd like to think that they have the best intentions as do my regular customers.
So what is standard policy? I've heard of a few in the past...but what would you suggest for a "smalltime' operator doesn't have a shop overhead nor plans to become "big"? Thanks.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Well, lately since I AM kinda desperate here, I might design something for free. They do NOT, under any circumstance are to leave the room with my design. If they approve of it (& pony up the dough) they can have it. If they say "Let me think about it" 9or whatever) I'll tell them "Ok, if you need to see it again before you make a decision I'll bring it back." If they give me a wierd look I'll kindly tell them why they can't keep it. (This is if I hoselty think they don't have a clue)
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Whether hand drawing or a computer rendering, spending your time on someone elses design is work. To me work is money!
When someone asks me what I have in mind for their vehicle, I explain and sometimes lay out a design using a Stibillo and masking tape on their vehicle, which takes a few minutes, if they ask for a layout on the computer printed out, I ask them if they are willing to pay me a minimum of $100 an hour. I'm sure you get the picture now. Time is money and energy spent. This is my field whether friend or stranger I almost never have to explain myself any further and it weeds out the serious from the price shoppers and my portfolio od photos does the rest.
posted
I guess it does depend on your situation and market. I most of the time can tel if somebody is a BS'er but I did have something similar happen to me once. I did up about 5-6 designs for them to pick from. Did a measuring trip and then went back to carry it all to them. They said we'll look at the designs and let you know next week. Next week they didn't call so I called them. "Oh, were still deciding" The next week I rode by and they had a sign up. They paid more for it (we asked them how much they paid) and it had no design time in it. I was just all Arial the same color, no logo. A real basic sign. It was even on a cheaper substrate. Their explanation, "We forgot we had already ordered this sign before we talked to you" Who knows but I was PO'd. We spent a lot of money at that business too, before this happened but NO MORE! Turnabout is fair play!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Asking for a sketch deposit upfront is easy. Doing it comfortably is hard....at first.
Whenever I have a client who asks for a design, a sketch or a layout, I say "Sure. I just need a $XXX.00 deposit and I'll have the preliminaries ready for you on _________."
Say it smoothly and without hesitation.
We are our own worst enemy when it comes to asking for a deposit. We hesitate. We stutter. We act uncomfortable.
When you act like it is just the normal expectation, you customer just assumes that this is how it done. Afterall, you are the expert and they came to you. They are expecting you to tell them what to do (whether they realize it or not).
If they hesitate when you ask for the deposit, just smile and stand there. Let them make the next move. Don't be quick to offer any other suggestions.
quote:Hadn't heard back in a couple weeks...so I called him yesterday. His wife answered and said they were still going to do it but had other pressing job issues right now. She sounded kind of funny on the phone though...so I'm like paranoid and thinking they just decided to have someone else do it or something.
I know for a fact that in this situation, my father would now send them a bill for the design time. Whether or not you will see any money out of it is questionable.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3723 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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No Jim I beleive they really did. I know what the other comapany would get and I was giving him a good deal in the first place. Since I this has happened, I have found a little more out about this guy and had I known then what I know now then, I would have gotten a deposit. He probably had already ordered another sign because the place he got it from is SLOWWWWWWWWW, month or so. I usually have no longer than 5-7 days turnaround even on big stuff. He probably was just yanking my chain or thought he could weasel out of the one he had already ordered and couldn't. Anyway he would have screwed one of us the way he went about it.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Excellent advice all! Glenn, I especially like your step-by-step scenario....this is perfect. I'm telling you right now...I'm gonna use that idea. Very smooth.
All other other policies are much appreciated.
It's weird...people don't think twice about asking you to "whip off some ideas" to look at.
I doubt that a Lawn Service would mow a person's yard so they can decide if they want to hire them......or a doctor would let you out of the office without payment up-front or an insurance card....I gotta be the same way.
posted
Todd, chalk this one up to experience but keep an eye on that customer. See what they end up doing but give em a call in a week to remind them of their negotiations. If you dont follow-up, they'll likely forget.
They might honestly be thinking about it, or waiting til they have the money before they give you the go-ahead cause maybe it was more $$ than they had anticipated but still want to work with you.
If you include a copyright notice on all sketches stating something to the effect of "All works are property of Todd Gill, all rights reserved. All infringements will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law." it *might* be enough to deter them from shopping the design around.
Otherwise, a design fee is the only way to handle a situation like this, whether it's a sketch on paper, computer printout, or emailed JPEG. If you are dealing with them via email, it's easy telling them you need a design fee or deposit before you let loose of any artwork, you don't have to see them face-to-face. If you deal with them in person, it's like Glenn said, you gotta say it very matter-of-factly like their isn't any other choice, no ummm's and uuuuhhh's... no trembling, no looking to the sky, no wringing hands.. just look them dead in the eye with no expression and say "I need a $200 design fee (or whatever the fee for the particular job would be) before I let this artwork out of my sight, otherwise I'll keep it here so you can come back and look at it."
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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i am with the puttin your name and DESIGNED BY on the artwork you supply them. make sure it hits the design area, so they cant just cut your name off the drawing. also put a *** after designed by, then at the bottom of the page *** "if design is used by an one other then the designer there will be a $200 design charge assessed and billed. this at least will let them know that your work is worth the time you invested in it!!! i find it hard to charge most cleints for a design/layout if i feel they they are sincere. and if they are ...then asking for design money will push them to go somewhere else.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Never give your designs for a customer to look over. Meet with them to see which one they like, but never give your design for them to ponder.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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You wouldnt ask an architect to show you what an addition on your house would look like "just to see it."
You're portfolio should be enough to convince them that money spent with you is a terrific investment, and that you are a professional, no different from an architect.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Actually Dan, I have it on good authority from some contractors here that architects routinely submit drawings on specualtion. I was told that this is a routine part of some bidding processes. Of course, it's not going to be my routine.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Now-a-days, when someone want's something, I get a rough estimate of the footage and square up a price. For example, I say; "I've figured a rough estimate, considering the footage involved, it's gonna run ya somewhere in the range of $___.__, plus or minus, is this in your budget?" If the answer is yes, we move on from there.
If the reply is; 'but, but, so-n-so can do it for less', I ask, 'who?', 'how much less?'. Now, I know who I'm bidding against and how much money is on the table. If it's 20 or 30 dollars, maybe I can deal with it, maybe not...
I tried this approach on the look-e-loos that call on the phone for estimates. Mostly stuff I don't care to do anyway, like magnetics. It's amazing, the response you'll get!
Lowering the price only works for friends and family, otherwise I've gotta make a living!
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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David, the difference is architects do not submit drawings that have a great deal of detail or information in them. They are much like a sketch that we would provide a customer, only schematic just to convey a very basic message or concept. They can bang these drawings out very quickly since there's no accuracy or forethought put into them and any dimensions on them are written in by hand to save time, the engineers get to decipher the chickenscratch and turn it into something useful.
I've worked with Caesar Pelli & Associates (world renowned architects) on a few jobs and their Final Construction documents contain very few "solid dimensions".. They always leave an open possibility for changes to the design to reflect issues that might arise during the project. This makes it kinda hard when you're on the engineering staff and you need a set number, but on the other hand it gives us the freedom to say "This doesnt work structurally, but we can make these changes to make it work for us."
Frank Gehry's Disney Concert Hall (new facility for the L.A. Philharmonic) started off on a hotel lounge napkin.. I know because I was the guy that got to take that lousy sketch and try to tender a bid on fabricating thousands of curved titanium sheet metal panels.. Ultimately, Gehry ended up adding an in-house engineering staff to his firm and kept the job under his control, but soon figured out the difficulties in welding titanium and changed the WHOLE job over to stainless!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Joey & Glenn are both giving you sound advice. Cheryl & Dan, too!
Stand your ground and be professional. My bet is most of your customers have more experience buying products and services for their bizness than you do selling. Please, don't be offended. Just offering you a slightly different perspective. Some customers have no shame when when wheelin' and dealin'.
Chris
-------------------- Chris Bryant Puyallup, WA Posts: 49 | From: Puyallup, Washington 98374 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks guys...all good points! In fact, I'm proud of myself because I put your advice into action this evening.
A fellow I know through my brother-in-law came over and wanted me to do a bunch of custom designed Edge printed characters on his golf cart, along with striping, etc.
I could tell by the way he was talking that he had no idea of the design time, production time, and app time involved for his little "toy" cart.
He asked me for a sketch (as they all seem to do) and I looked at him and said, "Carl, I can do you a sketch, but I have to tell you up front that this design is gonna run in excess of $500....I just want you to know before I do anything in case it's not what you have budgeted for."
He said, "Oh wow, yeah...I was thinking it would run around $200....let's just go with some pinstriping and a quick logo."
My quote was probably low considering what he wanted, but I knew that would at least get him thinking in terms of reality. I explained how many hours of design it would take, then the cost of material, and labor...etc....he started to understand that you just don't whip these things out.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Glenn has the right idea. Charge up front; be clear and almost nonchalant about it, and have it be a fixed price, based on the type of job. A typical scenario was last week: Got a call from a realtor looking for a carved sign for a condo association and had no design in mind, other than some other signs we'd done. Over the phone, I had her commit to a $250 design retainer, payable on meeting her at the site. A week later, I show her two sketches and sell a $2500 sign. The design retainer is not mentioned again; it's not refundable and it doesn't come "off the top" of a price on the job. In the past few months I've had four or five such jobs, only once, having got the $250, did I not get the job - but I still had $250 for my time! This process works by establishing you as a professional and weeding out the tire-kickers (or the design thieves).
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
sounds to me like you have the "concept" down and what you're working on is the "skill" to ask for the deposit. here are a few things to consider:
Some people are shy when it comes to talking about money. if this is you, then you can try a few approaches --
Put it in writing instead! spit it out of the printer and let them read it. You can then answer their questions.
Practice! Sit down with your spouse, or a friend, or even the kids and just repeat the phrase that's sticking in your throat: "Gee, i'd love to show you a bunch of color options, and i'll need a deposit on the job before we can start." (I had to do this with a handyman friend of mine who knew he needed to be charging $30/hour but couldn't bring himself to say more than $25 -- he repeated "I charge $30 an hour" about 50 times before he could do it without blushing.)
Get somebody ELSE to do it for you. If you aren't good at getting the deposit (or closing the sale, or chasing after a debt) then find somebody else who is. Maybe that's the job your partner can do, or an employee, or an outside salesperson. Just because you're in business for yourself doesn't mean you have to DO it all yourself.
Sales and negotiations require practice and training just as much as twirling a brush or coating a board.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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