My instincts tell me to respond to the comments made by the editor of the local paper after reading her column on billboards. There is a moratorium that was recently passed that puts a freeze on any more billboards going up around the city so we don't get too cluttered visually.
Some of what she says has merit - but much does not. You certainly can't regulate good taste - nor dictate how much an entrepeneur spends on signs. How best to address her? I'd like your opinion also so I can respond from a broader perspective than just my own. The following is the editors response to that issue. The last line reads :"Here's a novel suggestion: Leave the billboards alone. Whack the heck out of the signs."
Billboards can stay; they're done right
When I was a kid back in the 1950s, vacations were two weeks in Pennsylvania in July visiting grandparents. Since we lived in North Carolina and then Georgia, getting to New Castle, way up on the Ohio-Pennsylvania state line, meant two days, five kids, two parents, in a car on two-lane state highways and no air conditioning.
It was not, as I suspect you can imagine, a pleasure trip. "He touched me." "No, she touched ME." "If I have to tell you one more time ..." "I'm bored; there's nothing to do." "Are we there yet?" You get the picture.
We passed the time, or at least parts of it, looking at billboards. Through all those tiny towns tucked beside the narrow state roads, we'd wind, reading the billboards. We learned colors and letters and picked up an amazing amount of community information from the billboards. We found "Good eats" and "if you're here, you've passed Bell's Bar."
Each burg had its own billboard "painter," so no two were exactly alike; each mirrored the town's particular or peculiar "sense of place."
I particularly liked the "barnboards," those fabulously colored, gigantic sides and roofs of sagging, weathered red barns that sold — mostly — Mailpouch chewing tobaccy, and occasionally, Coca-Cola. I seem to remember a John Deere tractor, too.
And, there were, of course, the Burma Shave signs to encourage your speed reading as the car whizzed past at a galloping 50 mph. (If I have to explain Burma Shave signs, well, you're too young to read this column.)
I like billboards. Or rather, I should say, I liked them. Billboards can capture, as they did way back when, the spirit, the unique character of a community. They can be glorious works of art, a kind of American folk style worthy of a museum. They can make a long, boring, "stop pinching me" drive bearable.
So much for nostalgia. Those days are way gone. Too many of today's billboards tend toward corporate logos (think McDonald's, Holiday Inn, and a dozen different gasoline brands along the interstates) with too much text, awful art, zip personality. I understand why the city of Rockford has a committee figuring out what to do with the billboard clutter around here.
Trouble is, I don't want Mayor Doug Scott and his appointed billboard gurus to mess with billboards. Billboards are by no means the problem. Nope, the problem is signs. Signs, signs and way too many signs.
Don't believe me? Take a drive across East State Street. Or up and down Perryville, Alpine, Mulford, North Main and North Second. I did that this past week, because I actually wanted to look at the billboards everyone seems to be complaining about.
With the occasional exception (empty ones or sincerely ugly ones), the billboards around town are pretty classy things. They've got good art, decent text, great colors and some pretty clever creativity touting local companies and products. Hardly a multi-national conglomerate in the bunch. In short, they're like the billboards I remember from back when, only a lot better quality. I didn't find a misspelled word.
But, I could hardly find the billboards for the mess of signs. Every which way. Higher than the tallest trees, towering over the billboards. Bad colors, awful text, sophomoric art, ugly, huge. Acres of really, really bad taste.
I hear the city might consider attending to its sign ordinances if it can work through this billboard thing. Great idea. Signs ought to have maximum size and height restrictions, and maybe the committee could even legislate good taste. If the goal is to make this fair city look more presentable, there's going to have to be some pretty Draconian sign rules enforced.
Here's a novel suggestion: Leave the billboards alone. Whack the heck out of the signs.
[ June 24, 2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Here's a novel suggestion: Leave the billboards alone. Whack the heck out of the signs.
What a bunch of pompous crap!
Jay...you sound like the local "Good Taste Committees" Visual blight, they scream to the City Council. Then you tell the assembled politicos..."Signs Inentify businesses! Identified businesses make more money. More money equals more sales taxes. More sales taxes meands more money in the City Treasury. More money in the City Treasury means more public works. More public works means that you will have a better chance to be re-elected!" And then they say "OH!"
As a responsible sign painter/leader....educate your customers& competitors to pruduce better looking signs...instead of "Whacking the heck out of them"!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Unfortunately there's no good way to inform the public that the newspapers HATE billboards because they are in direct competition with the papers for advertising dollars. They use the "visual blight" excuse to attack billboards while their ugly paper boxes are cluttering up every corner. Their only motivation is Money, not aesthetics. The tv and radio people go along because they are their competition also.
-------------------- Dennis Goddard
Gibsonton Fl Posts: 1050 | From: Tampa Fl USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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The Editor did a good job of painting a picture, much like what I remember when I was a kid. A couple of things omitted were; "I gotta pee" and "I'm hungry"...
While reading this article, I was visualizing a couple of cities in my area, Naples and Sanibel/Captiva, both have restrictions on signs. Most are awesome, the caliber a Letterhead would offer!
I'm not so sure that 'whacking the crap' out of the less 'tasteful' signs isn't such a bad idea, hmmm?
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Jay, with one major exception, the courts have ruled that communities have the right to control signs on the basis that appearance affects property value, and governments can work to protect property value.
The exception is, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you let the Knights of Columbus hang a banner, you cannot refuse the Muslims or the local realtors. So called context based sign laws are unconstitutional, and are voided when taken to court.
Si is at the nub of the issue in that, when government gets involved, you want to be there arguing for beautiful signs, not less signs. Signs are a good thing, and everyone in the community should want both successful merchants and signs that are in keeping with the design values of the community.
The cities up and down our valley have some pretty rigid sign requirements. For instance, Danville allows no advertising to the freeway. There are the blue Interstate signs on the road indicating food and gas, but none of those 50 foot poles with logos on top. You can generally get through the design review process to a set of signs that adequately advertise the business. They do cost more, but they look better, and the entire town takes on a nicer look and feel. Also, the design review process tends to drive off the hacks, leaving the serious sign work to serious sign people.
Don't know if this helps any, but its my two cents. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Whackin' the ugly signs and enforcing good taste? I think she has a good point.. and not only that, she isnt the first one to think so.
Boulder City, Nevada has some strict restrictions on signs. All you have to do is drive through town once and you will notice no sign is over 15 feet tall, and most of them are done pretty nicely.
I dont see what the big issue is... if they whack all the ugly crap signs, it brings you more, higher end work to do which means more $$$ and more pride in your work!
It wouldn't be the first time a town controlled aesthetics. Where I lived before moving to AZ, there wasnt even a set sign code in place. This way the council could review EVERY potential sign before it went up and decide if they would allow it or not.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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The reality of the free enterprise system is that left to their own devices, for every business person who buys signs based on design and quality, ten will buy the cheapest piece of **** they can get away with. But whatever blight the market creates, you can usually count on government knuckleheads to make it worse.
Look at the resumes of most of the clowns who infest review boards and historic commissions. 99.9% have zero background in design of any sort, and those that do are almost always architects (which tells you a lot right there.) Yet these are the people who have the power to regulate design - a classic case of "those who can't do, teach", or in this case, push their unqualified idiot opinions and prejudices on everyone else. Want to watch the **** hit the fan sometime? Attend a Historic meeting and ask the commission members what their professional qualifications are. Make sure you know your Roberts Rules of Order by heart, too, or they'll shout you down. Ask me how I know.
As for newspaper busybodies, their life's work, to cadge from Mencken, is to conjure up bogeymen and then lead the public in tirades of righteous indignation against them. This goes on as it always has. For the moment, Jay's editor has set her sights on sign regulation; within two weeks she'll be bellyaching about the sewers, or saving children whose growth is being stunted from living near power lines, or whether lawns can be watered on Tuesdays or Saturdays or not at all. Her essential interest is not in saving the world, but to attract readers, and thus advertisers, by pretending to save the world, one whooped-up campaign at a time.
We have a sign code in our town that is utter nonsense and completely unworkable. For the most part it is gleefully ignored and only intermittently and half-heartedly enforced, usually because someone with an entirely different ax to grind goes whining to the zoning board about someone he doesn't like. Still, every so often the enforcement officer wakes up from his coma and writes out a stack of citations, all of which are arbitrary pea-shooting. The last time such a purge was underway, I started a rumor around Town Hall that a group of business people had hired a shyster and were going to put their property taxes in escrow. Nothing twists a public official's nutsack like the threat of those precious tax dollars being dried up, and the sign-enforcement purge died with a whimper.
A newspaper is a target in much the same way. Start a rumor (it doesn't have to be true, they almost never are) that business owners are going to stop advertising in the paper. Make sure the big spenders' names (like auto dealers) get thrown in. Ten bucks and a beer in Mars says the editor will drop the sign issue and start howling about sewers. They never get tired of howling about sewers. It suits them so well.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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The last time I had a problem with a sign put forth by the sign council in our city, I freaked out and stated that I would paint my building black and white like a Zebra, if they didn't get their act together.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Jay, as sharp as I think you are. (please excuse me I can undersatnd your traveling trip as a child.) I would use the old philosophy "can't beat em, join em" with you in there you will be able to dictate what you see as ugly or sweet. On one point like they did here in Fresno they put up a BIG sign ordinance about to many signs without permits on one of the busiest streets here, they got rid of all A-board and banners, we'll yeah some were pretty damn UGLY! You can fight em. Sure if you have a good design and it's worth it, but trying to fight a battle for the Billboards. I would it leave up the to Billboard companies, that's their battle.
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I refrain from most controversial topics to avoid just that...controversy!
but... I have to agree with the writer as long as the billboards were to remain "pleasing to the eye"!
Our company went retail last year for the specific reason of offering a product to this area that most sign companies are unwilling to pursue.and that is... a creative approach without looking solely at the bottom line profit margin.
I spoke with a real estate agent just this am that cannot be swayed to look at a more creative approach to a clients project. She is bent on using reverse channel mundane letters and will except no alternative...WHY?.because previous work in this upscale retail area has been poorly executed and it is extremely obvious that the intent was not motivated by design but profit!
THAT IS WHAT WE AS LETTERHEADS MUST STEP OUT AND CHANGE!
GET THE WORD OUT...WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
by attending meets, creating special projects to educate with, showcase our individual talents that visually show clients in different venues the MAJOR difference between "US" and the generic sign shop!
In a populated area such as the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex, we have over 85 sign companies and at least 95% of them could not care less about eye pleasing design!
I have just been asked by the city of Fort Worth to give a presentation to the design reveiw board (just recently formed) to share the unique techniques that we use in our projects...Why? Because they cannot enforce the creative or unique if they do not know it's available! Ask anyone here i Letterville that has a successful shop in the creative if they have a problem getting work!
We work hard here to create as many new designs and concepts as we do products for sale. I want to be able to show my client something new and different everytime they walk in the door! I love it when I get a call that starts by saying..."I saw this project and it had your name written all over it!" I love hearing it because it requires no bidding war...
Once we pull together as a talented and caring group of craftsman and educate the general public that there is someone available that can provide a creative...eye pleasing product at a value appreciated price, every one of you will never have to advertise again!
and the sign ordinances will be something we will be exempt from!
I don't talk about it...I am proving it every day!...from a recent designer that called our work "sexually exciting" to a couple that planned to get a bottle of champagne and sit in front of a very unique monument sign we just completed for them to celebrate it's lighting at dusk. That is worth as much as the money!
I am excited as heck about my companies future for exactly the reason that cause this women's comments...They will force folks to use US!..
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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I've been thru a good dozen or more of these so called ordinance revisions across the two Carolina's. In the long run the newspapers and media try to make a big issue of things when all in all they are hopefully eliminating potential competition for advertising space, which in esscence they compete for,..if the signs are gone the public will have to look elsewhere for ad space. Alot of the larger outdoor firms are now owned by huge media corporations that often as not are the same ones that own the newpaper and radio conglomerates.You figure it out,...
I've lived in a few towns over the years where the quality sucked big time as far as the quality of the signs went.
When I first got to Chemainus I thought we could legislate quality... and even tried working with the powers that be to do just that.
A few meetings in I got smart. No way you can legislate quality. We quickly killed that process and instead set about educating our way to quality. It took a few years and I turned down a lot of work but the town did voluntarily adopt a quality sign standard (except for a few turkeys).
It was do it 'my way' or go to someone else for your sign. Eventually it became the standard in the town to have professionally designed sandblasted cedar signs. and what a difference it made in the town.
Fast forward 15 years and I am now in a new town. Cultus Lake is tiny. So the change is gonna be way easier. And faster too.
I got the local board on side... to enforce their own bylaw against the crap... all the sandwich boards and temporary signs. THis stuff doesn't belong in a park in my opinion.
And to sweeten the deal we promised to construct 10 major signs for the park over the next five years... at no charge. We have gotten a lot of support from the outlying business community in materials and we are supplying the labor.
The first two major signs should be finished next week. Along with the signage we have on our own business it has made a big difference already.
Its fun to be part of a winning team who make a positive difference. And I am starting to see some great new signs in the community done by other shops too. Others are buying into the program.
Good quality signage, like most other things is a positive frame of mind.
-dan
[ June 25, 2002, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have yet to see an ordinance that enforces tasteful graphics. I have seen ordinances that require size and height restrictions, setbacks, and colors that coordinate with those that go on the storefront. I have seen ordinances that eliminate off site advertising. I do believe these rules are a start toward cleaning visual plight. Enforcement needs to be consistant.
I like the way Mike Jackson got customers jealous over the quality of their signs so they'd come in and say they wanted one better than their neighbors.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6730 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thats all really nice Dan but what about the little guy that makes theses sandwich boards.It's ok to push him aside just as long as you get chummy with the polititions?A lot of sandwich boards are well designed and in good taste.I live in the cheapest city in North America and believe me there are thousands of brutle signs but we also have the store merchants making their own.It's up to to city by-law people to walk down the street and pick out the Professional signs and get rid of the bad ones.-no offence intended.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sure, The answer is simple. Give everyone that advertises in their paper a call. Explain to them what they are trying to do with the signs. THE NO SIGN RULE WILL HURT THESE PEOPLE TOO.) Have them call and Complain to cancel their ads. After about 20 or 30 calls you might find another article in the paper with a different outlook on signs. (Remeber too- signs are a powerfull tool...You can use them against her. Just gotta be creative.) Ken Scott
[ June 25, 2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: KEN SCOTT ]
-------------------- Kenneth Scott Ken's Custom Tees 311 River Road Cumberland, Ky 40823 kenscott@setel.com Posts: 31 | From: Cumberland Kentucky | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Hi Jay, The initial slap in the face you get by reading the editor's remarks might sting a bit. I'm not so sure it is a bad thing, however. You might consider joining forces and agreeing! In fact, go for the throat and suggest the outlaw all the billboards, AND re-work the sign ordinance.
We live in Teton County, WY where all billdoards and ALL off-premise signs are illegal. You can't put a sign on one corner telling people to find your place at another corner. No A-Frame signs, no sale banners, no trailer signs, no temporary signs (except for event signs and special use such as a Jaycee Christmas Tree sale). There are limits on the numbers, sizes and heights of signs. While it might sound very restrictive at first, it does clean up the town a lot. Even within the sign code, someone can still create a terribly ugly sign, but you have to live with a few of them anywhere.
The net result of all of the restrictions works in a "quality" sign shop's favor. An average business has a set or limited budget for signs. For example, if they have $2000 to spend when opening, and they can have 10 signs, they will buy 10 signs with that budget. If they can only have 3 signs, they will buy only three signs using the same original budget. If the sign code says the signs can be only 20 feet at maximum height, the sign can be smaller than if the same sign was at 35 feet. Smaller signs tend to give you a shot at a higher quality, possibly dimensional or with a catchy piectorial or graphic.
You can win budget battles with newspapers. Go ahead, let her/them get rid of what they think is advertising competition! I don't think I have ever written this strategy in a SignCraft article, so here it goes:
When talking to a new business on the fence about spending money on a sign, we know there is an arbitrary $1500 main sign budget for the main sign over the door. (I don't know where that figure comes from, but Bob Mitchell and I used to talk about it 15 and 20 years ago. It might be $2000 now) For now, I will use $1800 because it divides easily. So you say..."Listen, spend $1800 with me on this sign over your door. In one year, we can throw it in the trash and buy a new one. However for this one year, the sign will cost you only $150 per month in "advertising" cost! You can't buy a classified ad in any daily newspaper for $150 per month! Even if you did, it would be small and buried, and not viewed by your customers. Right? Okay, forget throwing this sign in the trash after the first year and figure it will last 3 years. That's only $50 per month to have a very nice dimensional sign over your door. Here's your sign. Here's your door. You can spend $200 on a small display ad in a newspaper "one time per month" for one year and get limited response for your expediture--and have nothing but bird cage liner at the end."
I used that approach over and over for 9 years here in Jackson Hole, and I can tell you for a fact that it works...almost every time! The editor and the newspaper ad salesman has no way of competing here. Your numbers will crush anything they can offer.
When we were traveling around the country looking for a good place to move, we always went to the town offices and reviewed the sign codes. If they were governed by a bunch of design review committees, we moved on. No one wins with those groups, and we wouldn't want the constant hassle. The code here, while far from perfect, does seem to work. It allows for the customer to pull their own permit, which is important. They get to deal with the red tape. I think the most crucial part of any sign code is consistency of inforcement, and once you understand where the lines are drawn on gray areas, all if well.
The worst part of a new sign code is the transitional period where you have 200 square foot signs competing against a new sign for a next door business that could only be 50 square feet. In a tourist town like ours, there is a lot of turnover, and not many of the old giant dinosaurs remain.
I have mixed feelings at times on the billboard issue. I have to admit I enjoy seeing all the tourist trap billboards across South Dakota...such as the ones for Wall Drug, the Mt. Rushmore Museum, the Rattlesnake Pit, and the Antique Car Museum. There about 400 miles of flat prairie on that drive and the billboards break up the trip. At the same time, I don't think I need to see a billboard for Roto-Rooter or Levi's Jeans while on that trip...but I guess if you get one group, you get the other. Additionally, many of the new billboards for the old tourist traps are not as fun and interesting as the older ones. If billboards were allowed in Teton County, you would have them in front of a bunch of beautiful mountain vistas, and I can certainly handle the fact they are outlawed here.
So, maybe you can see the "evils" of the editor's remarks from a different perspective. With any sign code, you can absolutely wonderful signs created within the worst sign code in the country. Conversely, you can have some of the worst signs created within some of the best (creative) sign codes. That depends on the integrity of the sign shops and the ability of the designer to convince the customers to buy into their overall "quality sign" plan. That's your job!
Sorry about being a bit more long winded here than I had intended, but there are numerous sides to this coin.
Good luck,
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well, as a group we can't seem to agree either!! My purpose in posting this was to find out if we had a "collective" thought - or a shotgun-style way of approaching this topic. I got my answer - that's for sure.
I'm so thankful for the input. I am going to email this editor with a link to this page - and invite some response from her - or even a forum to speak through. I was irritated by the "whack the signs" comment by her just because once you start doing that, where do you stop? At what point do we put our collective foot down and say: Enough!! You can't regulate good taste!!
But she does make a point about the quality being inferior - which has carved out a niche for us at ShawCraft. But once you dictate (through the government) what business owners can and can't spend by telling them they need to purchase quality, then the question arises: At what price, freedom? Now, I'm not a militiaman from Montana or Michigan and don't hate government. I do believe that we reserve the right as citizens to enact our own laws through our representatives. Unfortunately, they never seem to ask the professionals to be part of the solution - or even involve them in the process.
I think this will create a healthy dialogue locally - but if your town or city is reacting to signs in this manner then why not do what I just did and post the editorials here? As a group, with this type of expansive input, we may be able to make our changes the "Johnny Appleseed" way - one small step at a time.
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well, I might as well wade in here with my contribution, for whatever it's worth.
It has already been established that you can't legislate good taste, or even give a definition to it. You can control size, color, or placement, but "ugly" can fit within all of those parimeters.
I have been asked to be a part of several workshop groups that were trying to set up a sign ordinace for their community. I was thankful to be a part of the planning stages, but none of my suggestions were ever taken seriously. Two years ago a small village to the south of me was incorporating and about to establish a sign ordinance. They wanted the village to be filled with "nice" signs, but no one could agree on the definition of "nice". Their idea was to have every prospective sign design go before a committee for approval. My question was "What will be the criteria for approval?" Before I submit a design I want to know the guidelines, other than just a "nice" sign. Then, when the decision is made to turn down a design, what are you going to give as the reason so that it can be amended to meet the criteria. Also, as the committee's membership changes the criteria will change according to the taste of the group. They had a good idea but one that was unenforceable.
As a result, they came up with a size requirement along with no internal illumination. You still have to get a permit and have the design approved, but no one is really sure what the guidelines are. Up to now, none of my layouts have been turned down. But then I know everyone on the board and have been doing signs for each of them for years, so do I have an "under the table" advantage?
Ugly is going to show its head no matter what you do. My solution is to do the best possible job on every piece of work and then have my clients advertise for me. One of the advantages of being in a small town is that the really good signs stand out above the rest. If you are doing the really good ones, you have it made. Competition for the higher end signs is very limited. Good design and workmanship will sell itself.
I agree with Mike and have used the advertising dollar comparison several times myself. It always makes sense to the customer.
Utopia doesn't exist, but we can make our own little world a better place by making sure that we are part of the solution rather than a part of the problem.
I'm all in favor of "whacking the bad signs" just as long as I get to be a part of the group that decides what is good and what is bad.
Some good thoughts here. Thanks Jay, for making us think. It's good to see "Golden" expressing his opinions, too. The fishing must be off today.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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OK - last thought for now: Here's what I sent to the editor. Food for thought? I hope so. *****************
Linda,
My name is Jay Allen and I own ShawCraft Sign Co. in Machesney Park. I won't start out attacking you like I suspect most letters to the editor do!! I want to create a healthy dialogue here so you understand what the ramifications of your comments are. First, I would like you to visit our website to see what the quality of our work is. Then we'll continue . . .
Now, it is probably apparent to you that if we at ShawCraft Sign Co. fabricated every sign up and down E. State or Perryville - or any of the multitudes of high-traffic retail areas around town - your request to "whack the signs" would be a refutable argument - and would likely fall on deaf ears. Our reputation is nationally known - and I personally write for one of the trade magazines - so I suppose my opinions are somewhat validated (plus, it makes my Mom proud!). So you can understand my discontent when a non-professional (who does make a legitimate request!!) like yourself becomes the purveyor of what is good signage - and what is not. You actually help my business by your comments - but I do see an inherent danger when the talk of sign ordinances comes up. These ordinances are almost always enacted without consultation of local (regional or even national) professionals in the sign industry.
While I do agree with some of what you say (because attractive signs DO attract more business) The question that begs to be asked: "At what price freedom"? When do we STOP regulating EVERYTHING and let a fair-market society - with all its pro's and con's - dictate what choices we make? I'm arguing both sides of the coin here - but I feel that issue is what you left out of your comments.
Back in 1997, we held the International Letterheads 'Walldog Rendezvous' in Belvidere. Letterheads - if you don't remember the event - are a group of sign professionals (no dues or governing body) who gather around the country to educate their own - and to promote the craft of sign making. They gathered in Belvidere as a means of promoting their craft by doing exactly what you said you enjoyed - re-creating old, period style wall signs relating to Belvidere's history. The emphasis in Letterheads is on sharing with other professionals - but the goal is quality and perfection (or as close as we can get to it) in sign design AND fabrication. The Letterheads have a website called 'Letterville' and I posed this question on the bulletin board. I think you will enjoy the variety of responses I got. Here is the link to the site:
There are two basic types of sign companies - electric (selling internally illuminated signs - the kind which you seemed to want regulated) and commercial. Most 'Letterheads' are commercial sign companies who do everything EXCEPT electric signs. (We at ShawCraft do subcontract electric signs on occasion - but primarily focus on commercial). The difference - if you go look at the websites of some of the respondents - is clear. Letterheads create the type of signs you would rather see. Good color choices, attractive shapes and layouts, etc. are the RULE - not the exception!! Electric signage can ALSO be as attractive - but regulations allow what you see - and they are a much stronger lobbying group than commercial sign designers.
We realize as a group that good design equates to more dollars - for the business, then for the local goverments through sales tax, property tax, etc. It's hard to get that message across to our customers - but many DO listen and then choose "Letterhead" quality work over budgetary concerns. So your points do help validate us to a degree. But you can't paint with such a broad brush when you say "whack the signs" as that encompasses ALL signs.
But if I like Jackson Pollock's work - and you hate him - how do you make my personal choice out to be wrong? Art (and we're talking commercial art here) is always, always subjective at best. Where does anyone - not just you - get off telling someone else that their choice of designs - or logos - or sign styles - are crap? Size can be regulated - and should. Height also. But ordinances always are enacted without the proper input - that of the professionals in that particluar field.
I would really like to evaluate this issue more in-depth with you. If that is via email, so be it. But if your editorial falls on the WRONG ears (eyes) then we will have a committee created by local government who fancy themselves as the 'bastions of good taste' - but none is likely to have ANY professional experience whatsoever.
One final thought: Opinions should be better researched if you want to maintain credibility. You shot the cannon with only the powder. It makes a great noise (and may sell papers) but it doesn't achieve anything else. Both sides of the argument have validity - its up to the pro's to help sort them out. Not newspaper editors. (But I appreciate you stimulating some well-needed dialogue!)
Your thoughts?
Respectfully, Jay Allen
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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And, Jay, that was my intent: to stimulate the discussion. I was concerned that there'd been a growing "belief" that if the city just eliminated billboards, the whole town would look great. It was amazing to me that folks actually believed that. As Lady Bird learned all those years ago, billboards are a challenge, but to beautify America took (takes?) a great deal more interwoven steps. I know you guys do good work, and there are some wonderful signs around town. Just as there are good and bad billboards, ditto for signs. My column was designed to generate the kinds of discussions you've raised here.
So, I offer a proposition: If you can edit this to say 800 words, I'd love to publish it in a Sunday Insight section. I have another equally provocative column from another local signmaker; between the two of you, you offer excellent and useful information for our readers.
If you're game, make the cuts and ship it back to me and I'll get it into the right hands. Hope you agree; it will make a good package. And, thanks for taking the time to share your concerns; I am grateful! ****************
Anybody want to help contibute with thoughts other than what was listed here can email me atjallen222@aol.com
Here's a great chance to start "spreading the seeds".
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Along with Cam, in the township where I live we are afflicted with a similar abortion of a sign ordinance. Mostly, it says what can't be done, rather than what can be done. This was enacted about ten years ago, or so, and it was part of a land use regulation set of rules. The land use part was as restrictive as the sign ordinance, and as a result, new businesses are practically non-existent. The dispositon of property--spell that as selling-- has also become difficult, especially if the powers that be get wind of what the buyer intends to do with said property.
The original members of the town board, the planning board, and the zoning board of appeals were for the most part on a power trip, and I don't believe things have changed for the better with their successors. The "small pond/big frog" thing.
The next township over though, is more business friendly, and new businesses are constantly starting up. Probably done at least ten times the amount of signwork over there, that I have here in my own township.
Preservation of heritage is fine up to a point-- but life does go on, and change is bound to happen. Progress also is a two-way street, in other words it isn't always forward. Those who would freeze time in a bottle and opt for no change-- good, bad or indifferent are IMHO just getting in the way of those of us who are just interested in making our way in life with as little interference as possible.
Jay, at least in your scenario, the ball appears to be rolling in the right direction.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Jay, I know you can do it! Go for it amigo. I'll be waiting for the news article on Sunday
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Way to go, Jay! Edit that thing and get it in there! 800 words?... Man, I had to edit one down to 300 in the Janesville paper a while ago.
Let's take a look at the way Jay responded to this... I'm impressed at his professionalism and humor. He could have easily "rednecked" a letter to the editor and helped fuel a negative perception of us drunken signmakers.
Again, way to go.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Where you come from this may be true. I haven't been there.
quote: A lot of sandwich boards are well designed and in good taste
But I doubt you have been to Cultus Lake. Its a 600 acre park by a lake and in a wonderful natural setting too. The temporary, cheap crap the merchant folks have been putting out on the road doesn't add to the natural beauty of the park. (and most of it has been designed and built by 'professional' sign folks) I don't think it add to the local merchant's businesses either. It clutters the roadside up and is little better than the trash thoughtless folks throw out their windows as they pass through... Hard words but true (in my humble opinion)
I've long been opposed to third party signage. I believe well designed signs which fit into the architecture of the building are far more effective. Add to that a well designed and beautiful landscaped building and you have a winner.
This is my humble and very opinionated position.
No offense meant or taken.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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