posted
Hi Folks. A customer called me today with what I feel to be a justified complaint. About a year ago, I applied silver vinyl to the rear window of his Dodge van. This vinyl is NOT the metalized chrome look material, but rather the kind that has the look of 1-Shot silver. This back window is a compound curved surface, and of 3 colours that were applied, only the silver is lifting from the edges. Red, White, and Black were all holding up fine, but the silver appears to have broken down and lost it's adhesive qualities very prematurely.
Have any of you had any similar experience with the "metalic" colours in vinyls? The material in question is 3M 220.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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I've had similar problems with silver metallic in the past - Sparcal, Arlon and 3M. The stuff is rated for 5 years, but I've rarely had it to last more than 3 years if applied to any sort of a curved surface.
Today, I put a disclaimer on any of the metallic vinyls unless they are applied to a "flat" surface. All of my customers are told up front what I think about the stuff and why. Some clients still go for it, some don't. Its one of those CYB things.
[ June 21, 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
I haven't heard of any similar issues at this point but will enquire back at the office and with Gerber.
If you intend to pursue a warranty claim, the following should serve as a pretty good guidline for making your case with the manufacturer:
Obtain a 6"x6" (or so) sample off your customer's van and another to forward to your supplier. If possible apply to 220 series release liner for the trip.
Take copies of your invoice to your customer and your supplier's invoice to you.
If you still have some of the suspect batch of product on hand, you will find that we place a batch control label in the core. Note all of the information on this label.
Forward the above items with a cover letter that explains the situation and tells your supplier what sort of compensation you are seeking. Officially, manufacturer's warranties only cover material replacement, but if you make a strong enough case, you stand a better chance of obtaining more. There are no guarrantees -- but nothing ventured, nothing gained, as the saying goes. I'm glad (in spite of the circumstances in question) that we finally had a reason to interact directly with one another. Warranty claims aren't my departmetment but as a fellow letterhead, I would be happy to assist you in any way that I can.
Take care, and I look forward to more positive reasons to get to know one-another in future.
[ June 21, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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You're right, Jon. I was looking at an old Sparcal chart when I wrote that. I don't have the Avery or Gregory chart in front of me right now, but I think they have 5 years written down.
Re 220 Series Metallic Colours / Warranty... I was busy checking while you were busy typing. I'm sure that I read 3 years somewhere, at some point, but can't lay my hands on whatever it was.
You're the best researcher I know. I'm sure you will set me straight if I am incorrect.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I was just checking Gerber's site, but I haven't found anything about durability for the 220 series. I'm at home right now and don't have a Gerber chart in front of me. I did see that Gerber's new Stardust silver is rated for 5 years though. That might be something for Ken to consider.
3M 3650 and Gerber/3M 220 -- although very similar -- aren't identical products...and may not have the same warranty coverage.
I like your stardust suggestion.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Was the silver by any chance layered ontop of another color? This has happened to me about 5 times in the last 12 years....only when placed directly on vinyl.
It was Gerber/3M
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think that you will find that most metallic vinyls will fade and degrade quicker than non-metallics. Accelerated weather testing will bear this out.
Arizona, Texas, and other "hot" spots will produce premature failure sooner than cooler climate/less sun intensity states.
This has been what I have heard back in the ol' Spar-Cal days.
Also, I seems I recall that shrinkage of vinyl varies from calendared and cast vinyls and maybe with solid and metallics as well. I'm wondering if you have a metallic base vinyl element overlayed with a non-metallic vinyl or even worse, a calandared vinyl....if the differences in shrinkage rates will pit one vinyl against the other in a tug-of-war that results in vinyl coming loose???
Again, this is what seems to stick in my head from the old days...and I could be wrong or partially wrong.
posted
My brother has been striping cars (he started with Trim Line in the '70s) for over a quarter century (the last part of this statement was to make him feel really OLD).
He has told me for years that silver and bronze metallic vinyls do not hold up like the other colors. I do not know why, there must be a difference in the process or manufacturing of the metallic. When I visit with him in Montana, I always work with him a few days. If we are restriping an older vehicle that has silver or bronze metallic on it, the vinyl on those colors is crazed, cracked and comes off only in little chunks. The other colors will remove much easier. He has always only used the highest quality cast films available.
Maybe some of the newer formulations correct this.
Just my $.01 worth (2 cents at half price special).
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5106 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just about refuse to use silver anything, paint, vinyl whatever, same with gold and light colored metallics. I'll substitute a gray or an imitation gold type instead. 9 out of 10 times when I say I don't like to use silver, I get asked why? I ask them "have you ever owned a silver car?" 9 times out of 10 their response is ohhhhhhh yea, well go ahead ahead and use the gray The warranty on material only is an absolute joke!
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
quote:The warranty on material only is an absolute joke!
Yeah, the silver vinyl on the back of Ken's customers truck couldn't have been more than 2 square feet! I certainly wouldn't put a claim in if all I'd get was a $2.50 reimbursment.
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi again folks, and thanks for your input. Part of this job involved silver applied over a red vinyl, and a portion was only silver directly onto the glass. The silver failed in BOTH situations, but the other vinyls (all 220 series...3M/Gerber) had no failure whatever. I've had a couple of responses from phone calls and e-mail that advise clear-coating the face & edges of metalic colors with Frog Juice or 1-Shot acrylic UV Clear. Both people have done this and report that this additional treatment prevents this premature failure.
I'll try this with this particular customer, but I'll be avoiding the use of the silver on future jobs, unless the customer is willing to pay additional for the clear-coating. Otherwise, it'll be "at their own risk".
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2689 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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One of my first customers that I served when I bought my Gerber 4b asked me to put silver metallic on his white minivan. I was horrified since I knew it wouldn't stand out. I kept insisting that royal blue would be the max, but he wouldn't have any mercy. Of course, I finally gave in, and bought a 50 yd. roll of intermediate silver (because it sounded reasonable and I didn't want to see that awful color combo around town for more than a year or two.) That was in 1995 and the truck lettering looks brand new today in 2002! Not any peeling, shrinking or fading! I'm baffled, but probably, it is there to haunt me. And the customer is really tickled with his van, saying it is not too "loud" for residential areas. Now I use the remainders for charity banners and taping my car trunk down, (at least it matches my car. Goes to show, life never ceases to amaze us, does it?
[ June 21, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Ive mentioned this before, 3M thru the automotive group, makes an automotive grade film, which i believe is rated for 9 years...in Canada, its available thru a company called Spectra Industries.. ive used it and have found it to be very superior to any other metallic...
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
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