posted
I've had a helluva week... why is it that it is so hard to find good help? The guy Ihave working for me (and have had off and on for 2 years) seems to have reached his maximum potential! My wife can weed and apply your basic sign twice as fast as him, mind you she hasn't worked in the shop in 2 years, and he is consistently doing something the wrong way ending in costing me money on the bottom line of jobs on a weekly basis.
What is a good wage to offer someone to get a good employee? mind you we are in the midwest in a rural area, but I would be willing to pay a good wage for a good employee!!
It just seems every time I try to hire, I either get a thief or someone with more personal problems than your average catholic priest!
Is there a good age bracket to look at? Single people, married, men, women...?
Just trying to get thoughts from others that have employees, we ahve plenty of work, actually more than we can do most of the time and have a great customer base.
It just seems the thing that holds back our growth is finding the key employee(s).
Any thoughts folks?
Shawn
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Consider looking at the older crowd---and I don't say that because I am part of it. Big corporations like Mickey Ds and Wal-Mart have had pretty good luck with this group.
Most of (us) have the work ethic more or less built in, family responsibilities are less, and you might even get lucky and find someone who has been in the field of signwork and wouldn't mind getting back into it. Get real lucky, and you might find two, each of whom would only want to work part time. May move slower, but maybe less mistakes, and less time wasted fixing errors. Less inclined to call in sick at the slightest sign of a sniffle.
FWIW, our .02
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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I disagree with you Bill to a certain extent. I would rather encourage younger people for part time jobs and show them from scratch what is expected of them rather than put up with older folks that know it all. hehehe And I think I'm one of them! If it's just sticking vinyl and layout from work orders, God knows it doesn't take a University Degree to do that. The youngsters, in my opinion, benefit more by gaining work experience and bucks to go to University. The last thing I want is a greeter at my door!
-------------------- Mario G. Lafreniere (Fergie) J&N Signs Winter did show up! Posts: 1257 | From: Chapleau, Ontario | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
hehehehhee...I've been asked wy I don't have employees....the reasons: 1.The kind of person that I would hire, doesn't need a job. 2. the kind of person that I can find to hire...I don't want!
Obvious disqualifiers are :
Close enough! What's the hurry? Why do I have to do it that way? Who drank the last beer in the fridge? Vinyl rules! I don't do high stuff! Why should i learn to do that? On site work sucks! and last but not least: "IOAFS!"
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'd love to be able to go it on my own, If it wasn't for our new baby my wife would be probably be out there to help, but its great not have to send your kids to a baby sitter for someone else to raise, but our workload demands that I have an extra set of hands in the shop to keep schedules and deadlines on-track.
By the way I don't work weekends, that is my family's time, and no matter how busy we get that's the way it'll stay, I have done way too many sat/sun jobs for it to be worth missing your kids hapiness at the park!
Anyone in Missouri looking for work and willing to relocate? We just need someone with the love for the craft that we have and not just looking for a paycheck and any old job! I know, good luck.
Thanks for letting me rant folks...
Shawn
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Wish you were in Florida. I might relocate there, and would like to work for, and learn from someone like you. And just to add, you might like to know that I am 22. Some young people, still do have a strong ethic and morals, and some even want to learn.
-------------------- BRIAN CAISSIE
7 Dewey St. Unit 11 Natick, Ma 01760 Posts: 99 | From: Natick, Ma | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Been hiring and firing folks for over 15 years in business and I have one really good reason why you can't find good help...It's cause it ain't their money so they don't care! It has always been hard to find good help but in my opinion (and knowing lots and lots of businessmen/women as friends, it ain't just mine) it has progressively gotten worse especially in the last 3-5 years. The kids nowadays (under 30 years old generally) don't care about anything and don't have any goals in life even if they are college kids and if they do, they won't be looking for a job, they wil already have one. I have seen some of the stupidest things in the past few years, stuff you wouldn't dream of. That is why my shop will reamin a family operation with friends and releatives hired in the busy times.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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John..I also hire casual labour when needed and it IS from a group of friends that I know WILL try their hardest to do the best they can. I pay by the job/task and it usually works out to about $20-$25/hr for them..They enjoy themselves at that rate of pay and they work hard, fast, and correct.
I would agree with Bill Preston..most of the folks I hire are my age or close..around 55-60..still have the drive and still have the ability.
I find many young folks these days, NOT ALL by any means though, seem to lack the "work ethic" that was somehow beaten into us older folks by either our parents or our teachers.
Shawn..my answer would be..are you willing to pay someone what they are worth?..and I mean something in the area of $15-25 US/hr, IF they are worth it? I might even be low in thinking of that figure. How about 1/2 of what you believe that YOU are worth or what you charge as an hourly rate?
I am not in the market to hire a full time staff member but if I were, I would think that 1/2 of shop rate would be just the correct figure to attract the type of person that I would want.
Just my thoughts and no comments or suggestions that you think or pay any differently than myself!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
This is what happens when you hire folks who don't care (99.99999999999999999999999999% of todays kids and a lot of older folks too!) I saw a Marquee get done the other day you now the lighted ones out in front of a shopping center. One of the large sign companies Brought out a Bucket Truck and all (A lawsuit waiting to happen with one of the "folks who don't care" operating it). Less than two weeks later, the vinyl is peeling up. Obviously NO SURFACE PREP at all. Guess it was time for a smoke break or something. I reckon that is why there are building inspectors who check out signs now too, I guess the cities don't want a erected sign (erected by one of the "folks who don't care") falling over on main street in the middle of lunch hour rush. Oh well, I guess I'll always be the mini-man, one-guy outfit.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Hi Shawn, I believe Glenn Taylor has a sister Lucy who will work for peanuts. She sounds better than what you've got. see Rob Ivers post. just kidd'n.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hehehe....Nope, she's turned into a diva and won't work for peanuts anymore. She will only work for bananas now. Not only that, they have to be Dole bananas. She also expects a regular quarterly bonus of oranges and Evian.
Too rich for my blood.
Leroy here might be interested though......
See how excited he is!
[ June 21, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Sorry Glen, But I've heard story's on old Leroy there, every time you go onto a job he just likes to hang around...plus he's got that "Price-Shopper" face when you tell them how much nice signs cost!!!
Thanks for letting me know I wasn't alone in this folks.
Shawn
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I was told a LONG time ago that if the individual is worth hiring in this business eventually they will become a competitor,you figure out the logic there,...
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Brian sounds to me your not wanting to leave Florida. Not married and 22 is the time to get up ona go.Call the man and discuss the job and if you both agree get to heeeell up there.My2 cents.Sorry but I have 2 your age and I said the same to them.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
the reason you cant find good help...those that can do the work are workin or self employeed...and those that can't....are lookin for work.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
No, the real reason he can't find any good help is because he's in Troy, Missouri. There aren't that many people to pick from out in the sticks .
Shawn, most businesses that are looking for real workers have a 30 day grace period, where they offer a lower starting pay but make it known that if they show promise, their pay goes up after the 30 days. If they don't show promise, they get canned. This lets you get by paying less for someone that wont work out anyway.. or if they can take the lower pay at first and are willing to work, they'll make it past the 30 days and will obviously work out for you.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Hey Shawn... This may help out... I have 7 month old boy and I bring him to work with me... I had him here since he was 3 weeks old... My husband works at another job... So, I here myself all day with my son... Now I'm not sure what I'll do with him once he's walking??? You do get little behind but its not that bad though... I have been doing the most of the work and gets pretty busy though... When I get really busy, I sometime ask a friend or relative for a help and they really help me alot... Rather than a stranger you never know what they would do...
-------------------- Jaime Doyle Doyle Sign & Web Design RR1 Box 351-C Grampian, PA Posts: 79 | From: Grampian, PA | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
It seems the consensus here is that very few, young and old, qualify as helpers in a sign shop.
They make mistakes? I may be wrong, but as a general rule, we can expect a margin of error and/or fallout of 3%. Accounting for this in your 'bottom line' is essential if you're expecting to make a profit.
Larger companies have orientation, where they explain company goals, the rules and their methods of doing business. If an employee is sweating during this process, they has a chance to run!
I also have to wonder what type of boss we are...Are we expecting our employee to be as good as we are? Imagine cramming our experience into a 30 day class. If we're so busy that we need help, when do we find the time to adequately train someone? Personally, I can't imagine putting a 'green-horn' on the job without assistance, too many variables.
Worried about how 'fast' the job is getting done? Ever hear the saying; 'slow down, you'll go faster'?
I didn't have any pressure when learning the sign business. I made mistakes and had someone there to explain the reason it happened and a remedy to fix it. I was encouraged to have confidence. Do you have the patience to train a 'good' employee?
Cher.
[ June 21, 2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Cheryl Lucas ]
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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well I think I've found a replacement for my current employee...A young guy, mid 20's, with a family, a truck, a house payment and a little common sence... will let you know how it goes. I've got a good feeling about it so we'll see. If all works well hopefully we can open that second shop before the end of the year!! Have a great weekend all.
Shawn
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Hope he isn't one of those ones with a family and all of that plus a BIMBO girlfriend on the side that keeps bugging him all day long and starts up trouble all of the time. If you had my luck, thats exactly how he'd be.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Shawn - let me throw my two cents worth in on this. It seems to me it is a case of supply and demand, and its not just that you are out in the sticks. The country right now has an extremely low unemployment rate, so basically, everyone is working. If you were in the job market in the late 70's and early 80's in Missouri (I'm originally from Sedalia), then you remember how hard it was to find a job. Nowadays, everyone is hiring, and there are no employees to be found. If you've been in a fast food restraunt lately, you realize that most of the people working there now would have been unemployed in the 80's. In other words, we are scraping the bottom of the barrel. There is alot of good advice posted here about finding a good employee, but let me add one thing - once you find one, KEEP HIM! We spent three weeks running ads for help, got three applicants, two of which were unqualified.
-------------------- Ben Sherr Street Metal Custom Auto Art 3006 River Rd Hopewell, Va 23860 (804)452-1540 Bjay65@msn.com Posts: 77 | From: Hopewell, Virginia | Registered: Mar 2002
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Well I guess I should add a couple of things here about myself, our location and our soon to be new employee.
First, I know the age thing is an issue with some folks, well I'm 29 and have been slinging paint since I was 15, My uncle was a sign painter, my father is a sign painter (about 90 miles away) and my brother has recently gotten into the business (about 45 minutes away) We run what I feel is a sucessful business pulling 10K plus a month out of our little shop in the sticks.. :-) we're really not that far in the boonies, we're about 45 min from St. Louis, so I would call it more of the outer Suburbs.
Secondly I should mention that our new employee has been a friend for about 4 years, he's been a trailor mechanic and welder all his life, just like his father before him. He came to me at just the right time, telling me how he was quitting his present job soon because of the wear and tear it is putting on his body, he doesn't want to be crippled up at 35 with burn marks all over his body. It just happened that we both were looking for a change at the same time. So I figure his welding and steel abilities will come in handy from time to time, its one thing I have never wanted to do. And yes he's taking a pay cut coming to work for us, but if he has the people skills I believe he does and the ability to be self motivated I can guarantee that he will be making more with me than he ever could have as a mechanic, plus with alot better working enviroment.
Well sorry to ramble on, I will keep you all posted as to how its going over the next few months so that any of my experiences I encounter may somehow help some of you when your in my shoes...
Have a great weekend all..
Shawn
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Thats not fair Shawn, your cheating, your hiring a friend. Thats about the same thing as hiring a relative. Anyways if you know him well, it'll probably work out. Most time, they at least give a darn about your business.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
the old saying is true... its hard to find good help.
I have had 2 employees in the past 2 years. The first was a 19 yo kid who worked at a local sign shop before for over a year, good cuz he has experience, bad because... he only aspires to be Troy Lee and wont stop talking about airbrush this or that while he should be weeding vinyl also he just doesnt have initiative, i.e. sweep the floor empty the garbage etc. The breaking point was he called in sick one day and didnt come back for 3 weeks.
so on to the next guy.... Old friend (strike one) although he does have initiative ("come on what can I do") he cant seem to get the hang of weeding vinyl, screws up most every job he weeds
also he has a phsyco girlfriend who comes by and screams at him.
too bad I cant take bits of each and combine them.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Well, it may be a coincidence, but we are now 4 women (ages 38-43) working at our shop. Three of us have been there over 2 years. All of us are good, dedicated employees.
Three months ago, the 28 year old musician among gave notice, (great guy, pretty fair employee). His musical career was calling.
Placed an ad, plenty of responses, Just a few likely candidates, though. Fewer with any experience. Hired a young man, 23, over the 38 year old women, even though she had more experience, so we would have a more balanced work force.
The day before he was to start, he called. He had a better offer. Best thing to happen to us though. The women is working out great. Terrific work ethic and she is very grateful for the job.
On a negative note though, we may be all women because of the pay scale offered. All management was willing to pay for this position was $9.00 an hour. A skilled, self motivated man would not stay long at this wage. This skilled, self motivated woman is just grateful to have the job.
posted
Just to touch on the age thing again-- I brought it up originally because I thought that the older crowd is often overlooked-- nothing more, nothing less.
The work ethic can be present, or absent, in any age group. Just think the odds of it being present are better in the older group.
Don't have a lot of "issues"--those I do have aren't relevant on the BB.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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I'm sorry if I got under your skin with the age thing, I was just saying that I'm young and have a good work ethic, I totally agree that older people usually have a better work ethic and usually a more stable life. I just think it could be hard for me to tell someone 15 - 20 years my elder what to do, and on the same token I think it might be hard at 45 - 50 to take direction from someone in their 20's without feeling some sort of resentment. that's all, I have always respected your level headedness on this board Bill, that's one thing I could learn from you for sure...Calm and thoughtout isn't always my strong point.
Shawn
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
i'll change the topic to: Why is it so hard to find a good boss?
boy, what a bunch of grumpy gloomy griping sign artistes! who'd want to work for you?
I think Cheryl is right on the mark -- what kind of boss are you? (this applies to all of us, not just to Shawn).
lets face it, a lot of us are self-employed. we have the kind of "initiative" that makes people START businesses. you think learning to letter was tough? that's nothing compared to learning to be a good boss.
here are some of the grumps you guys posted: --"he just wanted to be like Troy Lee... all airbrush" --"they don't care about my business" (...the way I do) --"i don't want a greeter" --"no initiative"
employees are wonderful -- they allow you to make more money by doing the same amount of work. of course, the work you need to do isn't sign painting -- its "managing employees."
they don't manage themselves. honestly, they don't. if you think you're going to continue doing your own thing and magically the employee will become a "mini-you" then you'll be dissapointed.
the labor pool in rural MO is probably as good as it is anyplace else. people take jobs to make money and further their OWN interests. they don't take jobs to further YOUR interests.
if you want good employees, then find out what interests THEM -- chances are that most of them won't live breathe and dream sign painting. and NOBODY wants to weed vinyl 40 hours a week, so don't be suprised when they call in "sick" --- they're sick of weeding vinyl. or they're sick of some sign-obsessed nit-picker who thinks everybody should care about signs.
get real -- it takes more than money to make a job interesting. (money helps, but it doesn't keep the job interesting).
i'll start a new post where we can offer some positive ideas about how to attract and keep good employees, and not just whine about their shortcomings.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Read with interest the post about needing help in the U.S.A. What is required for a Englishman to come over and work in your country ? Visa etc, etc,. Brian.
No apology is necessary, and I wasn't looking for one. You didn't get under my skin with the age thing--- as I said, it is just that older folks are overlooked a lot when it comes to seeking employees.
You have a valid and excellent point on the younger directing the older and the possibility of resentment on the part of the older. However, if the older employee is as much an adult as the chronological age would indicate, then that person will keep in mind that he or she is in a subordinate role, and accept direction gracefully.
FWIW, I wasn't always the "poster child" for calm or thinking things through. Still have my moments even now--- just not as often.
Also, FWIW, anyone who has the name Shawn, and spells it that way can't be all "bad"--- my youngest has the same name and spelled the same way. It is his little boy that shares the pic with me.
[ June 22, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Well for what we are paying and how well we treat our employees (scooter) withour current employee, I paid for his move here from alabama, rented him a house (1st and last plus deposit), gave him a company truck to drive, paid for fuel in company truck (all fuel) pay is $400 wk take home, and my wife bought his 2 kids all their school clothes and supplies at the begining of the school year. He could take a day off when he liked, as long as I didn't find out about it that morning, only had to wprk 9 - 5 mon - fri, weekends off (always) and if he was shor one week, would lend him money till friday. Now I don't know if all this is customary for a company to do but I felt like I was pretty generous. As far as being a good boss, there's a fridge in the shop with drinks, radio to listen to what you want to, and yes you can even smoke in the shop as long as nothing is getting painted or cleaned with anything flamable at the time.
So scooter before you bash my ethics as a boss, if that was what you were doing, get the whole picture. If that's not what you were doing then my apologies for taking it the wrong way.
As for our new employee, he'll get all the same benifits, as well as when I feel he is comfortable in running our new shop, he will get better pay plus profit sharing on a monthly basis.
Does this sound like a grumpy old boss?
I don't think so.
Shanw
-------------------- Shawn Setzer Signs by Shawn 826 Hwy 47 East, Troy, MO Posts: 241 | From: Troy, MO, USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Hey Brian, What you would need is a sponsor in the U.S. A sign shop could sponsor you, that is, fill out the nessesary forms saying that they can't find any help in the U.S. and has found a recuit in the U.K.. It happens all of the time here in other businesses.
I met a Brit from Devon at a sign shop in Orlando and introduced him to a shop in Naples, he worked for a while there until his visa expired, went back to England and the shop sponsored John until he quit and went into the faux finish, mural business. I think he has overstayed his visa and we are stuck with him. He just can't leave the U.S.
Cheers
[ June 22, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Shawn, your past "employee problems" may be, well cause you are treating them just a bit too much like a celebrity.
I beleive in treating my employees like I would wish to be treated(having been an employee a lot of years).
But, I never expected my boss to buy my kids school stuff, nor provide transportation, or lend me $$$$, and taking off a day was approved in advance unless I was very ill.
Maybe you have spoiled them and they just lost that "respect for the boss" kinda fellin ?
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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