posted
After reading Don Antonelli's articel in Sign Craft and from others that say they use CMY instead of CMYK, It came to me to open a discussion about this.
On most occasions using my Edge it does become a noticeable difference to use the Process Black in a 4 color process job. Although I have used only the CMY on a couple of cheapo jobs ( meaning temporary ).
The topic of cost is not a factor because I charge for the 4 color process anyway. Recently I ran some graphics and after the Process Cyan I was thinking of why I ran the black but then after the black was laid, it was obvious that the black set the definition of the design.
Now the Roland machines might handle this differently than the edge, also the Roland might use more ribbon than the edge, hence then I can see it being a cost factor.
But all in all I believe and can see that after the Process black the print is of better quality, so why not run it?
How do others perceive this and or choose to use or not use process black.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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With CMYK printing you'll see more subtle detail in the dark areas, because the density increases when using C, M and Y to produce a black dot. This can be overcome with improved CMYK to CMY color tables within the RIP software, but I don't know if Gerber software does that.
The benefits of CMY over CMYK are of course cost savings. But you'll also have a smaller super-pixel as a result of eliminating one screen angle (the screens appear smaller); this only relates to process images or fills that have screened half-tones. Equally as important, you reduce printing time by 25%, and in the case of the EDGE, you eliminate a manual ribbon change.
In my opinion, CMY printing is not the end-all. But, when you are printing most images, it's close enough in quality to warrant using it for its increased print-speed (reduced labor on the EDGE) and lower output cost.
My $.02,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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Jim is pretty on the money. It's not a black-and-white thing (sorry for the pun). I have one EDGE customer who almost never uses K. Others won't run a job without it. It's a very subjective thing, I feel. If you put two pictures (bmp-type objects) beside each other, imagine this- one is a poster of the Jurassic Park Velociraptor peaking out of foliage, and
the other is a Carnival Cruise Lines' poster of a couple on the beach at high noon in Jamaica.
In the beach pic, you would probably notice some added definition of the detail, but on the whole not a LOT of K foil usage. Obviously the Juraassic Park pic would use a ton of black. So it becomes quite subjective. This goes right back to
Where will the sign be seen from? 5 feet? 50 feet? You may need less definition if you are farther away...
image intensity (as above)?
PITA factor- as Jim pointed out, 25% extra margin in a job is tempting!!
THis may not be a definitive answer, but it is a tougher dilemma (to me) than it sounds. Anybody else got ideas?
[ June 20, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Steve Burke ]
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I don't think Gerber's software will convert it from a CMYK to a CMY and compensate for the black.
The only way I know how to do a CMY job is to just not put in the black.
But the RIP software that you talk about Jim sounds interesting. If the software compensates for the black by using the M and C does it take any longer time wise to run the job?
also do your machines hold more than one catridge?, You mentioned that on a Gerber machine it requires a manual catridge change. If so how many?
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
In Omage's PLOT application in the 123 tool (Print Options - F11) There is a Color Correction section in the dialog, turning off "auto select" you can pick a number of profiles that are only CMY, these are made to compensate for no K, if one of these is used and no other objects are using K then the printer will not request K
Tony
-------------------- Tony Teveris Gerber Software Engr South Windsor, CT Posts: 92 | From: South Windsor, CT | Registered: Apr 2002
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It looks like Tony knows how to print CMY on the EDGE. That'll be a big gain over dropping K without simulating it with 100% of C, M and Y. Good tip Tony!!
Our RIP is open architecture, and the files can come from a variety of programs. So we have no control over what color models were used to build the files. Hence, in our RIP you simply choose to print in 3 (CMY) or 4 (CMYK) color process. We also have an option to use "Improved CMYK to CMY Color Tables" that compensates for the extra density that 3-colorn printing can cause. It sounds to me from Tony's post that Omega does something similar, provided the correct color model is selected when creating the file.
There is still some gamut-loss when printing in 3 color vs. 4 color. But the subtle detail loss is minimal, and I'd guess that our users print in 3 color mode about 90% of the time.
Also, 3 color printing is always faster than 4 color, because you eliminate a color plane. If however, you have a large black area, it would be slower since you're printing 3 color layers to produce a simulated black, which would print in a single pass in 4-color mode. I avoid that creating files myself (I'll optimize client-supplied files), by simply assigning all the large black elements as Spot Black. Then I print in 3-color process mode with black as an additional spot color. Photos look better (smaller apparent screening), and black, or other spot colors, are crisp and fast printing.
Regarding "more than one cartridge," the answer is yes.
Our 50" (50" actual print width) DuraChrome and Summa DC2 (next-generation DuraChrome) holds, and auto-changes, 8 cartridges. So you could print a 3-color process image with 5 other spot colors before you'd be prompted to manually change a ribbon.
Our new 36" (36.2" actual print width) Summa DC3 Print and Cut system holds, and auto-changes, 6 ribbons ... and then contour cuts if necessary.
Best Regards,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
OK My membership dues have paid for themselves today!
How cool is this when you can get advice right from the Manufacturer and it's competition ( on a friendly level no doubt )
Thanks Jim & Tony for answering my questions with facts, I found the info in the plot window you were talking about Tony, I never knew about that, now I can't wait to try it.
This will be nice to use when I have a job to run CMY and abrasion guard without the Edge requiring the Black cartridge.
It's also nice to see a Gerber presence on the BB
Oh one more thing...Tony what is the C-M-Y-K Black check button for when " Print as process is selected " ?
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I “generally” don’t print just YMC, I do include the K. On the few occasions that I have done YMC only, Tony’s direction is spot on. In fact, I encourage you to do a few sample outputs of the same file on the same material using different Color Correcting Profiles for each. Be sure to record what setting was used on one the back and store in a binder for future reference. Repeat the process with two or three other, very different, images. You may be surprised to see the resulting prints.
If you do make the trip to Mars in August, remind me to show you a few things that can be accomplished inside Photoshop (or other similar software) to “possibly” enhance a YMC only output version compared to a standard YMC print without alterations. Takes for little time to modify put can, at times, produce a very noticeable difference.
Using only YMC on the Edge via GA or Omega will produce different results compared to a ColorCAMM and other software. How each company approaches and uses color lookup tables, supercell structure, etc, and other interior RIP functionality will have a great bearing even printing to the same device, let alone differing devices.
Jim,
I agree about reduced cost by eliminating the Black cartridge plane or layer, but specifically to the Edge, I believe NO additional runtime will be required for YMC representation of K as long as the each cartridge was going to required in the same “Y-axis space” anyway. Please correct if that is misstated or interpreted incorrectly.
As an aside, looking forward to additional information and industry feedback on the DC3. Looks like a very worthy machine at a very attractive price. Time will tell, but at this point in the game, I believe you guys hit a home-run with this little gem.
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:I agree about reduced cost by eliminating the Black cartridge plane or layer, but specifically to the Edge, I believe NO additional runtime will be required for YMC representation of K as long as the each cartridge was going to required in the same “Y-axis space” anyway. Please correct if that is misstated or interpreted incorrectly.
Hmmm, good point. If there are other black elements being simulated at the same point along the width, there is no performance-gain. However, if you had something like a realator sign with a head-shot next to black text, the elements might print at different points along the length. If so, you'd lose money simulating the black text with the other 3 process colors; time too if your EDGE advances material faster when the head is in the up position (ribbon-saving mode).
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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OK, we are of the same mind site regarding that issue.
I’m just aware that each of the available color thermal machines out there approaches “the actual” production differently and for some, it’s more of an issue then others; but all are dependent upon the actual design and colors used. Thanks Jim!
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
CMYK - Black is only enabled when you select "print as process", with the checkbox selected any color that is 100 % black will print as 100% CMY, no K
Tony
-------------------- Tony Teveris Gerber Software Engr South Windsor, CT Posts: 92 | From: South Windsor, CT | Registered: Apr 2002
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