posted
A while back I bought some of that bananna banner-type banner-on-a-roll banner material from ameriban. I usually buy the stuff they call 'bannermax', it's a 13oz. material, but I wanted to try this stuff out.
Anyway, when I went to make a banner with this stuff, I first used rapid-prep to prep the surface. I usually do this, because I like to apply vinyl to banners using a wet-app.
Well, it was a miserable ordeal, and the letters did not want to stick for anything, it took a long time to coax the letters to stay put, and when I was all done, I got out the heat gun and toasted them a bit (mostly for the sake of punishment/revenge).
I have read that some people use laquer thinner to improve the adhesion of vinyl to some banner material. Does anyone have any advice on this? Or should I just go ahead and chuck this roll and buy the (slightly) more expensive stuff.
-shane
PS, sorry roger, rapid-prep just didn't work here, maybe there's no hope?
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'll bet you that you are using the grainy side of the material. One side of that stuff is generally smooth while the other side is bumpy. If you do a 2 sided banner than you will have to use it. The smoothe side goes on A-OK but the bumpy side, argghhhh... If you try to apply to the bumpy side wet, the moisture will gather under the vinyl around the bumps sortta like mini-man rivits. I use a rivet brush and in a circular motion go over the whole graphic after i squeegee it and let it set for a while the go over it with a rivet brush again and then after very carefully removing the premask, I eihter let it heat up in the sun or with a heat gun and go over it with a rivet brush again. No matter waht you do to that side you will have problems with adhesion even dry. The rivet brush is the trick, I use it when I apply banners dry also. No surface prep will cure that, not even Rapid-Prep, the best.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I aoplolguize fer my bad seplling. I is inna hurri.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
LOL, hey John, i'm not THAT lame (am I?). I'm lettering the smooth side. Just for some reason this stuff don't want to let the lettering stick like the nicer banner material does.
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
I have (testing) applied vinyl to (I think) every type of banner material out there, with good results.
The "textured" side is the exclusive side of choice when testing, Not wanting to find results from only a partial sampeling.
We always use quality products (vinyl) wheather cast, calandered, premium or intermediate or economy.
I know some of you find acceptable results from the "bargain vinyls", I'm not addressing that here.
The point is, our tests were done wet(with Rapid Tac and Rapid Tac II)and dry, with a variation of films on a variation of banner materials.
The better the brand name of vinyl, the better the application !
We can apply Arlon, 3-M, Avery, to the "textured side of banner,"wet" and imediatly attain bond, so much so that the texture is 100% visable right after squeeging(showing thru the film).We then "roll" these banners up for x-period of time to check results later.
Another test we like to perform; Cut a very delicate "snow flake" aprox. 3"x3", (with a good quality cast vinyl) now wet apply it to glass with Rapid Tac or Tac II. Imediatly (within a couple minutes)apply another film (any good cast vinyl,or mylar or whatever)and use the same instructions on the bottle,apply wet overlay to the snow flake,squeegee firmly, wait 90 seconds, wet trans tape (mid or low tac) squeegee again and remove tape. NOTE;
We don't like the squeegeeing results from the cheap "hard plastic" squeegees, more plyable the better.
You should have a "tight" overlay, no air or liquid pockets around fine lines of snowflake (no trapped anything).
If you do not acheive this level of bond, then the cleaning of substrate was insufecient, or the film is not agressive enough, or you used "high tac" trans tape with a lower tac film.
when we marketed Rapid Tac back in 1987, we thought the majority of shops would use "premium cast" exclusivley, well, didn't go that way so, we made Rapid Tac II for the films that are most popular in the average shop.
Just a little babble , hope it helps !
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Always tell the simplest stuff first, done a lot of stuff in my life (just gettin' started good in signs) and seen a lot of people who had been doing something the wrong way for years and years just 'cause they didn't know. I didn't tell some any better just to get a kick outta watchin' 'em struggle but only if they deserved it.....HA!HA!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Roger, I think you're a bit confused. I didn't say that I used RP as an app fluid (again, am I THAT lame? maybe ). Let me go over exactly how I have done banners in the past:
1. Prep banner surface with RP and 'the world's cheapest grocery-store paper towel!'
2. Apply Avery A5 (calendered) vinyls wet with rapid TAC I. (I realize that RTI is usually for cast films, but has worked very well for me up until now).
Now, I forgot to mention that I tried BOTH Rapid Tac I and II on this banner. When RTI didn't work, I tried my little sample bottle of RTII; same result.
I guess that my question is this: Since Rapid Prep doesn't seem to be working on this stuff, is there anything that will? Maybe I just need to chuck this stuff(the banner material) and get the good stuff.
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, Rapid Prep is a strong waterbased solvent cleaner, great for getting off wax,silicone,oil,grease,tar,sap,etc..
However, you don't need to use it everytime, only if you have reason to beleive there is one of the above stated contaminates present.
I will usually "feel" the substrate(with clean hands),turn your hand over(knuckles on the substrate) now drag the wrinkles in your knuckles across the area for application.
If your knuckles "grab" real good you just need to clean with Rapid Tac or Tac II, if your knuckles slip smoothly across, then you need the Prep.
Just my rule of thumb !!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Shane- I hate to say it but throw that bandana stuff away. Its not you, the vinyl or the fluid. I bought a roll a couple of years ago and had difficulty with the vinyl adhering even with a dry app and all the surface prep you could imagine.
My tip of the day. I have a 12" steel wallpaper squeegee that has 1" wide, adhesive backed Velcro (the soft side) wrapped around the blade. I use this for applying transfer tape quickly and smoothly and for applying vinyl to banners. I did a 3'x6' banner today with a premasked 29"x68" graphic. Hinged it in the center and was done in 2 minutes. I always go back after removing the trans tape and firmly squeegee the graphic with a piece of scrap backing paper between a regular squeegee and the vinyl. It took longer to remove the transfer tape than apply the piece. I'll have to take pics of the squeege and make a step-by-step.
[ June 19, 2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Brian Snyder ]
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Roger, I appreciate the knowledge. I think i've been 'rapid-prepping' a little too much.
Brian, I think I might just chuck it, OR maybe I'll use it to practice dry banner-app techniques like the ones you mentioned. I've never been real comfortable with dry app on banners because of all the wrinkles (even with the more expensive, thicker banner material), but maybe i'll have to give it a try.
Thanks again -shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
I buy banners from Ameriban all the time. I apply vinyl per their recommendation which is this:
1.) Wipe down the vinyl with Isopropyl Alcohol. This cleans off residue emitted from the banner itself and prep's the banner for longer lasting adhesion.
2.) Apply the vinyl. (Wet or Dry doesn't matter) Squeegee firmly with a squeegee, NOT a roller.
3.) Remove application tape. I can do this immediately after squeegeeing...even after doing a wet application with no problems of lifting.
4.) This is my own thing - - - resqueegee with a firm rivet brush...works the vinyl right down into the texture. (Yes there is a slight texture on the "good" side of the banner)
5.) If in doubt...flash over the banner with a heat gun.
Rapid Tac would be a good app fluid if applying wet. I do some wet, some dry depending on the complexity/size of the job.
I would think that Rapid Prep would work for the initial banner cleaning too though....I'll have to try it once instead of alcohol.
But Ameriban recommends cleaning all their banners with Alcohol and this has always worked for me.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Glad to see that I ain't the only one using a rivet brush on a banner! Did one yesterday on both sides. I did it dry though.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
In our retail store we started out 12 years ago wiping down everything with isopropyl alcohol and cheap paper towels. That seems to work fine for new materials.
We used Ameriban BannerMax rolls for white and colored banners wider than 36" and never had a problem with adhesion.
Most banner work was laid down dry because bubbles were rarely a problem on banner stock.
One fellow in the store had one of those window squeegees with velcro and it worked great. The others were comfortable with their vinyl squeegees. I think its what people get comfortable with.
We always kept a gallon of Rapid Tac and Rapid Prep in the store for the jobs that presented a challenge.
Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Roger.....I love all your products. But years ago, I made a banner using the wet method. I gave the banner to my customer, and the letters began falling off!!! I called the banner supplier, and they told me to never do banners wet. So I never have since. Banners come out very nicely done dry. Never have had a problem.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Looks like this is another excellent topic to cover on your web site Rodger... you know... you could have a step by step on a banner, with rapid tac, smooth side and rough side...
-------------------- Brian Crothers CR Signs 1790 C Tamarac St. Campbell River B.C. V9W 3M6 briancrothers@crsigns.ca Posts: 82 | From: Campbell River B.C. Canada | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Roger..You know that I like and use your products when necessary..Hope you include a segment on how to get rid of Rapid Tac from around rivits. I would LOVE to see that!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic