posted
Gotta throw some fuel on the fire every now and than.
Yea, there are more programs written for Windows, especially accounting programs. About ready to dunp Quickbooks Pro here because they won't update the dang thing.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Yea, there are more programs written for Windows
Based on you offering of this observation combined with the following quote from your link:
quote: Apple systems cost just $1,953 per year to support, Gartner found, compared with annual costs for Windows based machines of $2,522.
could it be that the higher cost of operation is directly proportional to the higher functionality derived from the greater quantity of programs needing support?
posted
>>> could it be that the higher cost of operation is directly proportional to the higher functionality derived from the greater quantity of programs needing support? <<<
Probably not, since having 200 word processors vs having 2 word processors doesn't really equate to more functionality. You still get a variety of professional software packages on the Mac, but not so many of the hacks from every tom, dick, and harry that take a class in basic or access at the local computer superstore and crank out what they call software.
I.T. people love Windows because it gives them job security. Computer stores love Windows because it gives them a constant source of revenue from customer support.
Didn't want the fire to flame out Ron
-------------------- Ron Wagner Posts: 5 | From: Tolland, CT 06084 | Registered: Jan 1999
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Bill, you just can't be content with the beautiful season in store for you there in Traverse City, can you? Well if you gotta start it up again, let me ask one question on Quick Books. Why the need for updates? I still have 1999 on my Windows machine and haven't seen anything worth upgrading to since. Like the program a lot, just don't think there any real relevent upgrades from Intuit.
Doug, your reply is right on. Look a little deeper past the numbers and it explains a lot.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Bill, I have Quickbooks Pro. When installed it went on line to Intuit and set itself up to notify me about upgrades. Just today, when the program was closed, there was a message that an upgrade was available, should it go get it. After approval it did just that.
What is the issue you are seeing with upgrades?
I would buy a Mac just to kick Bill Gates in the a** if it would run all my PC software without having to start over again. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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>> Doug, your reply is right on. Look a little deeper past the numbers and it explains a lot. <<
What is explained a lot? From Bill's link, the numbers say:
According to the 1998 Gistics report, "a Macintosh-using creative professional produces $26,441 more annual revenue and $14,488 more net profit than a Windows user of comparable skill engaged in similar work." This means that Macs pay for themselves in 4.59 months, Gistics said, while "a Windows-NT-based firm requires 12.58 months to recoup its investment – eight months longer."
Aren't you in business to make money?
Ron
-------------------- Ron Wagner Posts: 5 | From: Tolland, CT 06084 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
This paragraph above the one Ron quoted points again, indirectly, to the issue of less software available that Bill commented on. It is not just an abundance of redundant duplicity available for PC's only. Omega for running my Edge is an example. Bill has an alternate program for his Mac driven Edge (that may or may not be available tomorrow
If PC users are making less money for their employers in one study because they are also spending time installing new software, then once installed & after any learning curve, these new software programs may be adding productivity in areas the Mac users still do not have available.
quote: This landmark survey found that Mac users were more productive than their Windows-using colleagues, spent less time on housekeeping such as "managing files, and installing, uninstalling, and reinstalling software", and earned more as a result.
quote:Aren't you in business to make money?
some tasks required in this business are not directly responsible for my gross sales figures. Like doing my books in QB Pro for example.
I think that study is like saying "On workstations without access to Letterville, signmakers log more productive hours per day"
By the way I love Mac's, used them for 10 years, & just bought another one 6 months ago. But they can't do everything I need them to & they don't have to because of my PC's Anyway, I wouldn't want ther fire to go out either, but I think I'll go get productive now.
quote: According to the 1998 Gistics report, "a Macintosh-using creative professional produces $26,441 more annual revenue and $14,488 more net profit than a Windows user of comparable skill engaged in similar work." This means that Macs pay for themselves in 4.59 months, Gistics said, while "a Windows-NT-based firm requires 12.58 months to recoup its investment – eight months longer."
My statistics professor would call the Gistics analysis a “spurious correlation.” Most design firms were Mac-based in 1998, and still are. A better-established firm generates higher sales volume, and I doubt the computer or software they use has much impact on revenues. The quality of their design work, as perceived in the mind of their clients and prospects, has a huge impact on revenue.
Regardless of preference, there’s no doubt that there is more competition in the PC world than the Mac world. That drives both price compression and innovation. As time goes on, therefore, I suspect the Windows/Intel PC’s advantage will only increase.
Personally I’d rather invest my time in owning/learning the technology that’s most likely to be dominant in the future. That’s probably a Windows-based PC, however, Mac users are far more brand loyal. So, if the Internet displaces the personal computer with low-cost dumb terminals, the 5 to 10 percent of computer users that have Macs may be the only traditional computer users left.
So, get one of each. Then there’s no argument
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Let's not forget that study was also funded by APPLE. Of course Gistics is going to write a report that favors Apple computers, Apple puts food on their table.
The numbers dont have any real bearing on anything anyway. Where did they get those numbers? What's their source? Did they poll a wide spectrum of users or just well established firms? I can pull a bunch of impressive numbers outta my butt and put em into a report too. I could even write the report to favor Windows and Microsoft, which would never happen by the way cause I'm so peaved at their new licensing program and .NET service I'm about to jump ship and go LINUX with a little bit of MAC on the side.
If companies want to be more productive, they can eliminate internet and email access within the office and limit it to only internal office email.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Only have one thing to add. I have yet to have a problem getting the software I need for my MacG3. I have Illustrator 8, FLash 4,Photoshop 7,Typestyler 3(a mac only program),Streamline 4,Flexicut, and a host of others. I dont play games on my mac, but have a few in case I do. I built my G3 up from an 8500 I bought off of ebay. Added a Sonnet G3400 processor, upgraded the ram to 256, added a usb pci card,external cd burner, and a new 17" monitor. I probably have about 1000 totally invested in a computer that just does not ever freeze up. Running system 9.2. I wont try and defend macs, cause basically they need no defense. I also have a pc at home, Pentium 4 at 1.5ghz, 256 ram, 40 gig hard drive, and the usual other stuff. It's a clone I bought off of ebay for around 500 sans monitor. I like having both systems available, mainly to work with customers files if I have to, or whatever. Just finished loading software today on the pc, so I am gonna run a comparison on tasks using photoshop and illustrator on the same couple of jobs to see what the difference is in speed. Ill let you know.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Doug Allen writes: >>> ... the issue of less software available that Bill commented on. It is not just an abundance of redundant duplicity available for PC's only. Omega for running my Edge is an example. Bill has an alternate program for his Mac driven Edge (that may or may not be available tomorrow <<<
Yes, Bill has MacImprint from Gerber, and there is also Flexi which I am told will drive the EDGE from a Mac as well as a PC. Besides, the EDGE is just a printer, and how many other printers do you know of that aren't pretty much platform independant?
>>> some tasks required in this business are not directly responsible for my gross sales figures. Like doing my books in QB Pro for example. <<<
And your point is? There are accounting packages on the Mac as well, where many companies do their books. My mother, who is pretty computer illiterate, owned and ran a temporary employment agency using a Mac and accounting software writtin on top of a DBMS, and this was back in the late 80s.
Jim Dogget writes: >>> A better-established firm generates higher sales volume, and I doubt the computer or software they use has much impact on revenues. <<<
I beg to differ. It's like saying you can take a framing hammer away from a carpenter and replace it with a sledge hammer. You don't think it will affect his productivity? If software isn't an issue than I guess no one should have any complaints or issues with Omega since it really doesn't matter anyway.
>>> Regardless of preference, there’s no doubt that there is more competition in the PC world than the Mac world. <<<
More competition from the mass numbers of people that call themselves software developers as I pointed out before.
>>> That drives both price compression and innovation. As time goes on, therefore, I suspect the Windows/Intel PC’s advantage will only increase. <<< Where is the Windows/Intel PC advantage? Not in cost of ownership. Really not even in initial purchase price for comparable systems. From Bill's link:
>>> Last August, Gene Steinberg compared Apple's prices across its entire range with Dell's and found, to even his own surprise, that Apple's prices were competitive. One dedicated Australian maintains a "Mac-PC PriceWatch" which shows that currently Macs are cheaper than comparably configured Dell computers. <<<
If you go to Dell and start adding items to build a comparable machine you won't see the smiling Mom's face like in the Dell ads on TV.
Mike Pipes writes: >>> Let's not forget that study was also funded by APPLE. Of course Gistics is going to write a report that favors Apple computers, Apple puts food on their table. <<<
No where in the link did I read that the study was funded by Apple. Perhaps you read between the lines. I'm sure that in a completely detailed study that PCs outperform Macs in certain operations. Maybe Microsoft and/or the PC hardware market funded those parts of the study.
>>> I can pull a bunch of impressive numbers outta my butt and put em into a report too. <<<
Reminds me of a joke I heard recently: >>> Three men are sitting naked in the sauna. Suddenly there is a beeping sound. The first man presses his forearm and the beeping stops. The others look at him questioningly.
"That's my pager," he says. "I have a microchip under the skin of my arm."
A few minutes later a phone rings. The second man lifts his palm to his ear. When he finishes he explains, "That's my mobile phone. I have a microchip in my hand."
The third man, feeling decidedly low-tech, steps out of the sauna. In a few minutes he returns with a piece of toilet paper extending from his rear. The others raise their eyebrows.
"I'm getting a Fax," he explains. <<<
I normally don't get into the Mac vs. PC debate, but Bill sucked me in. Bill's probably sitting back enjoying his elk tacos and a beer, laughing at all of us.
Ron
-------------------- Ron Wagner Posts: 5 | From: Tolland, CT 06084 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
This thread popped up at a very interesting time. Recently I asked all of you which platform you preffered and why, and I recieved a great deal of information that was useful, and mostly fact based. So, I went and bought a G4 Powerbook.
I've been a PC user for the last several years, and I knew I was taking a chance, but I was also tired of lock ups, viruses, and strange slow downs with our PIII, Win XP and Win 2000 Systems, ( Although both were worlds better than Win 98 and ME). So, the mac gets here, and for the last week I've been exploring and using this thing with a big fat smile on my face. I havent found anything that I don't like, It's EXTREMELY stable, smooth, silent, hasn't done anything funky, and when I compared what I got with what I would have spent to do the same thing with a Dell or Sony Notebook, I am right in the ball park.
Now just today I ordered Roger a Dell Notebook, because of his need to operate a 2 way self aligning Sattelite dish for internet access. It was unfortunate that the dish company ( Hughes) hasn't created software for the Mac platform, but this isn't a very common thing for most people. Aside from that I've found that I can do everything and more with the Mac that I had done on a PC.
Oh and... Kiss network configuration goodbye. I bought the 80211.b wireless networking equipment (Apple Airport) and upon plugging the darn thing into my DSL router the little powerbook configured itself and I was connected. When I walk into the office I plug in the Ethernet Cable and I'm connected at the office.. I couldn't be happier, especially since yesterday my office PC running win XP decided it didn't have a Hard drive any more.
hmmmmm... Interesting. Fixing the PC again.
Now I just need Photoshop 7, Illustrator, Quark, etc.. for OSX ;-)
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
This thread popped up at a very interesting time. Recently I asked all of you which platform you preffered and why, and I recieved a great deal of information that was useful, and mostly fact based. So, I went and bought a G4 Powerbook.
I've been a PC user for the last several years, and I knew I was taking a chance, but I was also tired of lock ups, viruses, and strange slow downs with our PIII, Win XP and Win 2000 Systems, ( Although both were worlds better than Win 98 and ME). So, the mac gets here, and for the last week I've been exploring and using this thing with a big fat smile on my face. I havent found anything that I don't like, It's EXTREMELY stable, smooth, silent, hasn't done anything funky, and when I compared what I got with what I would have spent to do the same thing with a Dell or Sony Notebook, I am right in the ball park.
Now just today I ordered Roger a Dell Notebook, because of his need to operate a 2 way self aligning Sattelite dish for internet access. It was unfortunate that the dish company ( Hughes) hasn't created software for the Mac platform, but this isn't a very common thing for most people. Aside from that I've found that I can do everything and more with the Mac that I had done on a PC.
Oh and... Kiss network configuration goodbye. I bought the 80211.b wireless networking equipment (Apple Airport) and upon plugging the darn thing into my DSL router the little powerbook configured itself and I was connected. When I walk into the office I plug in the Ethernet Cable and I'm connected at the office.. I couldn't be happier, especially since yesterday my office PC running win XP decided it didn't have a Hard drive any more.
hmmmmm... Interesting. Fixing the PC again.
Now I just need Photoshop 7, Illustrator, Quark, etc.. for OSX ;-)
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Yeah, Bill's having a laugh that's for sure. Along with the rest of us. Nearly every comment favorable to PC's is made with a balanced respect for the value of a Mac. It's not a trait I'm seeing in all the "loyal" Mac fans though.
quote:And your point is?
when I said "some tasks required in this business are not directly responsible for my gross sales figures..." my point was that just because someone else (lets say Bill) made more signs then me today, It could be because I was doing my books & he was making signs. (maybe his accounting software still needs upgrading) Not the sort of thing good scientific studies are made of but then you never know.
quote:Where is the Windows/Intel PC advantage?
By the way, welcome to letterville Ron. I think that a good deal of us here have made the decision that there is an advantage in the use of one or more PC's to run our business' that way. Maybe you can change that opinion, but until then I guess the advantage is in the eye of the beholder.
Just a few quick corrections for you Ron. Flexi 7.0 does not run the edge from PC or Mac. It may soon, but not now.
Also you can call the EDGE "just a printer" (obviously you don't own one) but it's not like Omega is just a printer driver, it is valuable software for many edge owners & it's not Mac compatible. (MacImprint may not be supported in the future, so for Bill & many others lets hope for Flexi's rumors.)
[ June 13, 2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Jeff..Runnin win 2000 on main computer..plug in the modem cable to the ethernet card..up and runnin...
Runnin win 98SE on the laptop..plug the modem cable into the ethernet card..up and running
No difference fer me.
No configuration needed here.
NOW..I DO have a problem..maybe best addressed to Roger...when are ya gonna come out with something that cleans the "snot" off the blade after ya remove IT with "RapidRemover"??? That stuff is 'sticky' and yucky!!! LOL I am tired of slipping on that stuff!
How about "Rapid Vermiculite"? or "Rapid Oil Dry"? or "Rapid Kitty Litter"?
Just a question..and could ya please make it smeel good too???????
Regards Dave
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Thanks for the interesting statistics. I'm Mac based for over ten years now, and I couldnt imagine doing it any other way.
I'm ordering the G4 Dual in a few weeks - upgrading my G3.
They are all tools though - its the person behind the tool (generally) that make the difference. I can't speak on Windows issues cause other than my wifes laptop, I don't know much about them.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Wow, take an evening off and see what happens! Well, we are still runnin QB on the "old" G3 and it's working quite well. Just annoyed at Intuit that it looks like it'll never make it to OS X. My accountants have QB on their PC's and it's no problem backing up my Mac to a PC formatted Zip so they can update things on they're end. Weclome Ron, happy to have suckered you into the discussion. Not much to add here, guess I'll jsut get to work on my 36% more efficient day!
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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Eric, I've only sampled Colorado's version of elk and mulies.But any venison , including our whitetails, make wonderful taco meats. They enhance the taco seasonings perfectly and wash down extremely well with Labatt's Blue.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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One report that was actually published in the summer of 1997 based on research going back as far as 1991 (in the one segment of the computer market that has traditionally been Apple's stronghold) seems utterly irrelevant to me in the year 2002. Five years and more is an eternity in the computer world. I don't even think I have any hardware or software currently in use that goes back that far.
Secondly, who cares? If you're happy with the benefits of owning a Mac - great. If you're happy with the benefits of owning a PC - great. That seems to be the only thing that should matter.
-------------------- Bob Darnell London, Ontario, Canada
>>> Just a few quick corrections for you Ron. Flexi 7.0 does not run the edge from PC or Mac. It may soon, but not now. <<<
Interesting. Flexi 6.x did, didn't it?
>>> Also you can call the EDGE "just a printer" (obviously you don't own one) <<<
No, never owned one myself but worked closely with the EDGE, EDGE2, and Gerber's plotters for quite a few years. I know a little about them, MacImprint, and Omega.
Bob Darnell writes >>> Secondly, who cares? If you're happy with the benefits of owning a Mac - great. If you're happy with the benefits of owning a PC - great. That seems to be the only thing that should matter. <<<
Couldn't agree more. I've always said that you can get the job done on either platform, even though I've always favored the Mac. Different strokes... Just wanted to entertain Bill a little.
On the other hand, Mac OS X is now UNIX based. Maybe the US Navy should switch to Mac OS X so it wouldn't have to tow their ships back to port when NT dies. Or maybe they should use Windows XP so that their computers become unusable until they call into MS when they change their hardware configuration by adding a CD drive, etc.
Have a nice weekend everyone. Had enough entertainment yet Bill?
Ron
-------------------- Ron Wagner Posts: 5 | From: Tolland, CT 06084 | Registered: Jan 1999
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Yes, enough already. Ya just gotta do this every once in awhile. Lets just let it rest...... ....how do you spell Klez?
Sorry, yep, let it rest....
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Ron, I'm no expert on things out of my small area of experience, but having spoke to my Edge dealer about purchasing Flexi 7, I am reasonabllly sure that if Flexi 7 was already set-up for printing directly to the Edge, they would know. I will probably invest in the "Flexi driving Edge" rumor & will recieve my demo CD anyday. I am a CasMate user who needs to keep my production software somewhat up to date. I have streched out CasMate's usefullness about as long as I can & plan to upgrade/crossgrade to Flexi during the current "keep your CasMate key" promotion now going on. My main objective would be replacing CasMate, but the possibility of driving the edge interests me of course. You seem to know enough about Omega to know it's not everyone's(anyone's ?) favorite designing program.
While you don't agree with much of what I've said, you certainly support may contention that Mac users are brand loyal.
Okay; regarding where we disagree (if we're not having fun, let's stop ... life is too short):
quote:Jim Dogget writes: >>> A better-established firm generates higher sales volume, and I doubt the computer or software they use has much impact on revenues. <<<
I beg to differ. It's like saying you can take a framing hammer away from a carpenter and replace it with a sledge hammer. You don't think it will affect his productivity? If software isn't an issue than I guess no one should have any complaints or issues with Omega since it really doesn't matter anyway.
Not a good analogy. Taking a Windows framing hammer from a carpenter and giving him/her a Mac framing hammer won't attract more buyers of custom homes. Ask anyone here if getting customers is more important than their equipment and software (I ask this as an equipment manufacturer).
quote:Regardless of preference, there’s no doubt that there is more competition in the PC world than the Mac world. <<<
More competition from the mass numbers of people that call themselves software developers as I pointed out before.
Not sure what you're saying here
quote: That drives both price compression and innovation. As time goes on, therefore, I suspect the Windows/Intel PC’s advantage will only increase. <<< Where is the Windows/Intel PC advantage? Not in cost of ownership. Really not even in initial purchase price for comparable systems. From Bill's link:
Feature-for-feature, Macs cost more. That's even born out in "Bill's link." As far as the findings in "Bill's link" I'll once again point out that it's the product of spurious corellations. SCs are what we marketing folks, advocates, trade groups, et al, use to show that scientific data (so-called) supports what it is we endeavor to prove (we prove nothing, scientifically). SCs lack objectivity and do not adhere to established scientific mothod, which is a prerequisite to finding fact ... regardless of what that eventual finding is.
In short, pure BS, backup up by irrelevant data.
Back at ya dude (again, this is in good fun).
XXXO,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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Geeze Si, I thought all you pc guys were weirdos!
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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19,200 manhours on Macs (12 puters runnin 40 hours a week for 6 years +) with zero downtime due to puter problems. zero as in not a minute. And these things were ran hard, too.
Outside of that...anybody wanna weigh and photograph this dead horse so we'll all recognize it next time it shows up? LOL
posted
It may be a dead horse, but with Saint Pete riding in on it with shining armor waving his "no crashes in 6 years" banner, it's still entertaining!
[ June 15, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
OK...yes, they weren't all the same puters..didn't realize upgrading counted as "computer problems". As far as crashes..the only time's I've even seen a Mac crash was when the amount of ram used for an application was more than the amount of ram available in the machine. (Actually, in that case, the screen freezes...and "fixing" that is a matter of hitting the command/control/power keys..which is similiar to control alt delete on windows...and you're back up and running in less than a minute.) That's just a matter of having too many programs running at the same time or being too cheap to buy more ram. 128 megs of ram aint gonna power 300 megs of progams. hahaha
Maybe I just have the wrong impression of windows machines. That would come from hiring a full time computer tech to service the company's puters..who never had the occasion of being called into the art department where all the Macs were. Mac techs are like Maytag repairmen. They read alot of books and play alot of solitaire.
AND....I don't believe it's possible to ride a dead horse..but we sure are givin it our best shot. hahaha
[ June 15, 2002, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
I bought my mom a brand new I-Mac for christmas. She never loads software, downloads anything, or moves stuff around. Just writes & prints letters in Claris & spends some time on-line. She was way too familiar with the "time bomb" icon in her first month. Thank god for free Maytag support. Someone out there in support-land is getting behind in their reading.
posted
the one thing that puzzled me in this tread is if Macs are viewed by some as the the best tools for graphics applications why would you expect them to run accounting software? or word processing software? or games? or any other type of software for that matter?
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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