posted
One of my sign buddies, a good hearted fellow who runs a shop down the street, is having problems with slow paying clients and clients who seem to have no incentive to pay at all. I want to help him out.
What are some effective ways of creating some urgency on their part? Thanks
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Have big bad mean looking friends who are willing to help get your checks! (I am serious) And keep that positive attitude! Most of the time you will get paid.....I have only had one customer not pay in the past 27 years.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Well here in Nashville, we kinda play hard ball....we simply go and take the sign down until payment arrives. If if never comes and the client refuses to pay, we try to "recycle" the signage for other clients down the road. We do most work with at least 50% upfront as a rule, but even then if the client is faltering on his payment we figure he's already gotten well beyond the initial dn pymt in visual advertising from the new sign. Plus we find the longer someone has a sign prior to full payment the harder it is to get your money.
No song and dance around it, it is OUR sign till we're paid in full and our contract states it.
posted
50% deposit BEFORE any work (design, etc) is done. Balance in hand before the sign leaves the shop or gets installed. No check, no sign. Period. End of discussion.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3723 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Stan......I once had to remove a sign off a customers wall also! A few days later she came to my shop with a check in hand so she could get it back. *sigh* the games we have to play sometimes............ Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I've been lucky so far & not had any substantial losses from deadbeats. The worst was a restaurant that went bankrupt and still owed me $180. I had made $300 or $400 already & allowed an employee to pick up work with a promise of a "check in the mail"
I was think about this board, & this topic last week when I decided to bang out a $50 job on the spot & when the customer only had plastic (which I am not set up for) I just told him to send me a check. I had never met this guy, but he was referred by another client, knew other clients of mine & seemed like a trustworthy guy.
I have seen so many folks here mention their ironclad policies & I suppose that most of us would still make exceptions like I did. I think that the money I may lose some day down the road is a fair price to pay in exchange for extending trust to others as well as allowing my own trusting nature to make the occassional judgement call.
I will add that Maui is a very small place, & unlike many other small places it is not right next door to endless other small places. I also ask for 50% down, 50% upon completion, & I easily ask this of several long standing accounts by relating it to cash flow & not trust. Although I may trust a stranger for $50, I wouldn't trust one for $500.
One last thought. I never researched this, but have read it here on other threads that the law is NOT on your side when you remove signs from your clients property regardless of outstanding debt.
posted
I will add that my friend does mostly lighted signs, neon, channel letters etc. He builds nice looking channel letters and welds hisd own cabinets as well. He also installs transformers, ballasts and other components. He is owed for some of these component/service-call type jobs. But I would think that it would be kinda hard to repossess a transformer or ballast.
I'm with you though Cheryl, I would definitely show up after closing time and repo one of my signs.
[ June 12, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Wayne, I've read on here some folks that do work for larger corporations offer a discount when paid within certain time intervals... say like 10% off if paid within 7 days.. or 5% if paid within 30.. as a means to expedite payments say if they have to live with the corp's net30 or net60 terms. If they have no intention of paying at all, I guess that wouldnt work too well.
Doug, I think that most people here do extend some trust to their customers, but it is done at their discretion. I have some pretty hard and fast policies since I sell to online customers, I have to state my policies to get the point across there won't be any screwing over the stickerpimp . In 3 years and thousands of transactions I haven't been burned ONCE. There is one time I let my guard down and I sent a COD order out and forgot to check the "Secured Payment" box. I received a check and as it turns out, it was written from a closed account. Two calls to the County Sheriff and District Attorney where the guy lived solved the issue, they rattled the guy and he sent me a money order.
Anyway, I make exceptions to my policies as I see fit, which isnt very often, but if it's a long-time customer such as a job I did recently I'll send them the goods with a bill and some trust. Like I said, I haven't been burned yet and I dont plan on letting it happen.
As far as repossessions go.. watch your back, it's not something to be taken lightly. There's nothing stopping your customer from catching you and putting a bullet through your skull or letting his 160 pound rottweiler rip you to pieces. If you do get shot, you have no recourse because you were tresspassing on THEIR property, and under any extents of the law you were stealing their property as well regardless if it was paid for or not - you give up control of the sign as soon as you let it walk outta your shop. If they dont pay for it, big deal, you were dumb enough to let them take it without payment. As far as the law is concerned, it's now a gift. Those are the judge's words, not mine. At least you can deduct the loss from your taxes, there ARE provisions on the tax forms for give-aways or refunds.. chalk it up to experience.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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If the job is channel letter service he can file a mechanics lien for services rendered. I once knew an old neon guy(retired,..now passed away)who would use a bb gun and or a high powered sling shot with 1/4" steel bearings to "collect" from "delinquent" clients. Most if not all channel letter clients have storefronts and or rent them from developement companies, tell him to report the problem to the developement company or property management firm that the client rents from,...
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Advertising works BOTH WAYS! Protest banner attached to both sides of your vechile,constanly driven around the offenders place of business is perfectly legal. Words to the effect of.."BOYCOTTT(biz name)for unfair business practices" Is am America right having to do with Freedom of Speech. Nevermind the embarrassment factor!
Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The repo issue has been hashed out here before... Look, if you buy a car and don't make the payments, the repo man comes to take it back. Why? Because it says so, right in the sales contract. My contract specifically gives me ownership of a sign until it is paid for in full, PLUS permission to go onto a client's property to reposess. There's nothing ambiguous about it, and the client grants these rights to me when they sign my contract.
BTW, the contract I use was written by an attorney, one Frank J. Williams, who has since become Chief Justice of the Rhode Island Supreme Court. I have not had to use it, but I'm pretty sure it will hold up.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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But once you start dealing with people you don't know..... commen sence must prevail.
Got burned from Burger King for $5,000.00. I did their promotional R.V. for special events. It turned out that they hired an outside company to do their promotion and lease the vehicle. They were not getting involved.
I wanted to take a spray bottle of terps to the sucker 'cause I knew where it was parked.
It wasn't there.
A cop buddy told me that if i actually done this crime I would be in major league trouble!!!!
Unless you have covered your behind (legally), Don't be repoing no sign or other stuff.
posted
If anybody has ever had problems with bad checks, my family uses a company called Checkcare to get those took care of. It has been very succesful so far for them but we haven't yet gottten any bad checks so we are holding off signing up but as soon as the first one comes in I'm in. You don't get all of the money but it beats getting none and going to the Sheriffs office. Been lucky so far as not getting burned but I still get worried some times.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I was thinking of posting on this subject because I just had a guy I did work for in the past, rip me off.
I just did a job, adding some lettering to an SUV and a trailer for a guy I kinda know, He leaves the rig at my shop, gives me the keys, I letter it up, call him but he is too busy to pick it up that day. Says he will come to my house to pay me and will pick up the rig that night at my shop.
So I grab the keys (truck keys, house keys, mailbox keys, keyless entry), head home, he calls and and he's on his way to my house, but he is in a hurry, be right over. I wait 30 minutes, call him on his cell, he says he went to my shop first, but will be right over. I wait another hour, call him, and he gets all ****ed off that I keep bugging him! He says he is coming right over............. I'm still waiting and I still have his keys. Some %#@*ing people!
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Sometimes this doesn't fall into the category of common sense. For a long time, I didn't require a deposit on any job. Funny thing, I never got burned. My town is small, everybody knows everybody, so you kinda get the info through the grapevine. One customer got me last year though. Large business too. Had done a pretty good business with them until then. They called, ordered some signage and picked it up with the bill. They were slow sometimes but always paid. On this job, just couldnt get it out of em. Tried everything, no go. So, I had my fill of them, called the manager, told him no longer would do business with the company. Also called other sign shops warning them of this company. Bout a month later, when they couldnt get anyone to do their work, they called asking how much they owed me. Told em and got a check. They called the next week wanting to order some signs, told em 100% up front. Don't know where they got the job done. Deadbeats are deadbeats. I'd rather quit than put up with them.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Cam, you have it in your contract, good on ya for being a business person! But these other people, they're gonna get shot for tresspassing and stealing because they didnt have the forethought to put it in writing and like to play these mickey mouse "They didnt pay for it, it's still mine" games. The truth is, it's already after the fact and too late, yer screwed, anything you do wont hold up in court. It's called reality.
Repo guys get shot at all the time when they come to pick up cars from deadbeats, you can ask any one of them to show you their bulletproof vest.. it's required equipment no matter what neighborhood they're in.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I like Cam's and Timi's posts. Get it in your contract. Mike big companies won't pay interest after the net period, just a fact. I'd hate to have to sell accounts receivables, but that's alwways a possibility.
posted
a couple large companies I deal with do pay extra. I put on their invoice 'if not paid after June 15, add 10%' and then I list the new total. They always pay the new total. And it makes it a little easier to have to wait 60 days as their orders are usually pretty large.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Mike, With a few exceptions, I always get a deposit of 50% down and the balance when the customer gets the sign. Some customers elect to pay in full in advance. But, Cam's idea just stengthens my resolve to do just what I said. Thanks Cam
Houses are foreclosed on every day, vehicles are repossessed. I'm sure there are many other examples.
If someone would not pay for one of my signs...... I paid for the material out of my pocket, fabricated the finished product with my skill, labor and time. If everything else failed....I would go get my sign.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Maybe you aren't catching the fact that YOU WOULD BE TRESSPASSING AND STEALING if you go back for your sign, even if they havent paid up the balance.
ONCE THEY HAVE THE SIGN IN THEIR HANDS, IT'S NO LONGER YOURS! UNLESS YOU HAVE IT STATED AS SUCH IN YOUR CONTRACT WITH THEIR SIGNATURE ON IT.
Repo's and foreclosures are performed because YOU SIGNED THE CONTRACT GIVING THEM PERMISSION to come get their stuff back. If a repo or forclosure clause were not in the contract, they would not be able to do it.
If you want to steal your sign back legally, put it in your contract!
My other post wasnt about interest charges, you missed it. I'm saying, you give them a final price for net30 or net60 arrangements, buffered up a bit for the hassle of having to wait if you like, then on the invoice you drop a note that if paid within "X" amount of days (5 business days, 7 days, whatever) they can enjoy a discount off the final price. You dont itemize any extra charges for having to wait for payment, just buffer any fees, charges, interest, whatever you wanna call it into the final price and they're nonethewiser about it. If they pay within the time to receive the discount, good for you, ya got paid quick. If they wait til the last day of the net30 or net60, good for you, you got paid for the inconvenience of having to wait!
It's business, and when you run your business as a business things go much more smoothly for you.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Mike you are correct that it is tresspassing and stealing if you go back to get your unpaid for sign. However it is also stealing if they don't pay for the sign they ordered. Some rules are just meant to be broken. Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I always get 50% down on every job over $200 with "BALANCE DUE ON COMPLETION" stamped on the invoice. If the total is less than $200, it's 100% up front. I never accept out-of-town checks, either, unless they're a BIG corp.
posted
Getting paid has not been a big problem for the most part, for all these years.
The two times that it was, I gave one to a collection agency, and the other time I went to small claims court. The collection agency is IMHO the way to go. It's called cutting your loss(es). You at least get a percentage.
Small claims court on the other hand, can be a losing proposition. If the other party doesn't show up, you win the judgment by default. This does not guarantee that you will ever get paid, and worse, there is no way to force payment other than coughing up more money to have the sheriff seize his vehicle, and then it is sold.
Even this has its drawbacks. First to be paid is whoever holds the note on the vehicle. Then if any money is left over, they go right down the line in chronological order to pay off whoever else has judgments against the deadbeat. Since you are last in line, the likelihood of seeing any money is just about nil.
One other word of caution--be very careful on repossessing a sign, regardless of what your contract says. Most lawyers will tell you that most contracts are not worth the paper they are written on, even though lawyers are the ones who draw them up. (Says a lot about lawyers, and the system, doesn't it?) Keep in mind that possession is said to be nine tenths of the law.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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yep you sure do need to be careful. I have told this story on the BB before.... I did a job for a new computer type business. Got my 50% deposit. Got along great with the customer and his wife. Installed the signs on his wall. He loved the sign. Come time to get the remainder of the balance mister computer man was always 'out'. I called...set up appointments.....he would agree to meet....but he was always gone. This went on for 3 months. So I called a friend of mine. (A very large friend.) He went with me for a surprise! visit to mister computer dude. My friend asked why I hadn't been paid and began removing the letters from the wall. My very large friend then said it was time to take a cruise to the bank. I followed in my truck. Customer went in and got the 500.00 he owed me. Then my friend made the customer go back in and get an additional 75.00 for wasting our time. This was all done while mister customer was pretty much shaking in his boots. Moral of story is....be careful....but don't let people walk all over you.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Cheryl, it's not stealing if you install the sign without them paying the balance first. When you afix the sign to their structure, it ceases to be yours. Morally, yeah it's stealing, but law isnt moral.
You control the terms here.. it's YOUR business.. YOU make the choices.. YOU make the decision to run to a customer's location and install a sign without seeing the money first. POOR DECISION, your fault, not theirs! If they don't show ya the money before you get started, you walk out their door and take your sign with you! Let's take some responsibility for our own actions here.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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simma down now Mike.....I did get a deposit. People who don't pay their bills really get on my nerves. So you do whatcha gotta do...how ya wanna do it. We all have choices..
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Mike, I have never had to repossess a sign but if a customer just refused/ignored/neglected to pay for a sign which THEY ORDERED AND PROMISED TO PAY FOR......I call that STEALING
Have it all written on the contract like Cam said. Have the customer sign the contract agreeing to the terms and by all means keep a copy.
Make several attempts/contacts with the customer to get paid. Make copies and keep records of all the attempts.
If the customer won't pay, go to his place of businees during business hours so it won't be trespassing, remove the sign and take it back to the shop.
HOW CAN YOU STEAL SOMETHIN' THAT'S ALREADY YOURS.
I'm sorry bubba, but that's the way I look at it.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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My customer had foam letters for his wall sign. I did get the 50% deposit.....when I started installing...he left. I finished before he returned. I had no reason to believe he wouldn't pay.
Hey I have to run.....gotta go get more gold metallic vinyl.
Be Back Later to argue more................ Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Bob Burns: CHERYL.... I THINK MIKE'S POINT WAS TO GET THE BALANCE BEFORE YOU INSTALL!
Thank you Bob! Hey, ya dont even have to have it in your hand, just make the customer show ya that THEY have it ready to go before you install it! If they dont have the cash or a check ready to go before you start, you take the sign back home with ya! Tell 'em you'll come back when they are ready for it.
Wayne, if it's in your contract, that's good.. my point is, someone that DOESNT have a "repo clause" in their contract thinks they're just gonna walk into some customer's shop and take a sign down and walk out without being challenged about it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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had a customer once that had a lighting store that gave me the 50% down then when we installed the sign he wasn't there. went back and he said he didn't have the money. went back again same story so i told him i needed new fixtures for the house and proceeded to load up the truck. he would have been better off paying me the balance.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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HAHAHA way to go Jimmy! Did the guy decide to pay you or did you load up and leave?
I just did a job for a client who was "not inclined" to give me a 50% deposit. He had given me a design fee of $150 for a $1142 sanblasted sign but didn't want to pay a deposit on the sign until the sign was completed. Anyway, when the sign was done they came and got it but NOT without the balance.
I just finished two signs for the Holmes County Board of County Commissioners, which they picked up today, and all I have right now is the PO#. They are a repeat customer and that's usually the way I do with local government jobs. But if, for some unforeseen anomaly, they didn't pay.....and I get caught...I hope they have computers and I can log on to Letterville in the BIGHOUSE cuz I might end up lettering license plates.....I'll post some pics......
Anyway, I loaned my sign-buddy some money to help him over the hump til he gets paid. He needs to learn to get his money up front for service work I guess.
[ June 13, 2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Y'know Mike....I rarely have customers not want to pay. This guy tried to pull a fast one....it didn't work. If all customers were like him, I would change my ways. Most people are good. Most people pay. The scumwads who don't, learn real quick they probably shouldn't have done business that way. We all have our way of dealing with situations.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I have not been stiffed too many times. The one that sticks in my crawl is Troy Haas. The guy comes to my shop. I spend time with him showing him around and such. He's talking big about the equipment he's going to buy and soforth.
So a couple of days leter he calls me and asks if I'll qoute an engraving job. I quote it and he gets it. So I do the job and send it to him.
He NEVER PAID ME. This is a year ago. So I finally get ahold of him. He promises to pay me whatever he can spare until the $ 250 balance is paid. Well I can say HE NEVER MADE THE FIRST PAYMENT.
A couple of weeks ago I read his post that he is retired. Going to save some equipment and supplies and GIVE AWAY SOME TO A SPECIAL FRIEND. Well I get P.O'd. This individual is leaving the business WITH MONEY ON THE TABLE!!
So after publicly exposing him he says that because I wrote his debt off he deserves it more than me. He will not give me a straight answer as to wether he was paid by his customer.
The bottom line is that ALL deadbeats including "our own" Troy Haas should be PUBLICLY HUMILIATED. Troy has no shame. But maybe a deadbeat or two have some degree of shame. Humiliate them when you can.
Posts: 121 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2001
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I LOVE THE ONES THAT COME TO THE SHOP AND GO OVER WHAT THEY WANT (NO ARTWORK INVOLVED AT MY END), THEN SAY THEY HAVE TO TALK IT OVER WITH THEIR WIFE OR PARTNER.THAT'S ALL OK! THEY CALL BACK LATER THAT DAY AND ORDER THE SIGN. I TELL THEM I NEED A DEPOSIT AND,MANY OF THEM JUST DON'T SHOW UP. I GUESS THEY FEEL ONE TRIP TO MY SHOP IS ENOUGH!
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