did someone's widdle feewings get hurt by my e-mail and they had to send it to mama cheryl? it must have been "mama's boy" hahahahaahaha (you know who you are. LOL)
[ June 07, 2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
posted
Let me explain something to you Mark. (by the way...you are both a weasel and a whiner) but that is not my point so listen carefully as you just don't seem to get it. I truly love Letterville. Steve and Barb are great people. I have met them. There are tons of great people here. You are not one of them. I have so many people give me thumbs up on what I say to you. Remember what I said? I don't let anybody push me around. You are a joke. I think initially you have a sense of humor, but somewhere it gets lost. Not sure if it is all that empty space in your brain or what, but it gets lost somewhere, and then you become a real dick. Oh I know I am not supposed to call anybody names. OOPS. But guess what. I have more balls than you will ever hope to have. So don't dare me Marky boy. Because the joke would be on you.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
All this ruckus over a signpricing post, well anyways I ordered my copy today and talked to mrs. Roberts a few minutes, Mark also e-mailed me yesterday and they both seem like really nice people. Yall simma' down now, simma' down.......... Oh and also, please don't anybody steal my maul stick and put it anywhere it shouldn't be please.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
If you clicked on your Letterheads button some night and the site was gone forever, how would you feel?
I can only speak for myself. Independent of the advertising thing, the loss as a visitor/resident "value received" would exceed the $50 resident tax.
Who knows, maybe if there were enough residents, advertisors would not be necessary.
Steve doesn't like us "hounding" people to join, but residency is good in the greater scheme of things.
With respect to referrals, it's a simple matter to start your call with "I found you through the Letterhead website and _______ thinks you are a great vendor" That always gets the deal off to a happy start, and might help the site if we all say it enough.
Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I think you brought up some good points Vic. I know I've been quick to defend what I consider our "rights" as members, but I know I would be very saddened to log on & find Letterville not popping up as my home page. I think visitors coughing up the $50 fee is much more appropriate then all of us having to gage our references, remarks & links according to who supports this site. But when a non-supporting vendor does get a plug here they should be told by any customers responding who sent them.
I don't want my Government representatives promoting, pushing or railroading us residents into the use & expense of products & services based on the providers monetary contributions.
What if visitors posts had an 8 hour delay? They would almost be experiencing the "full version" like shareware, but with enough of an incentive to become members & have more "real time" access. I agree that more memberships would lessen the need for merchants, & related dialog. Sorry if I just offended several visitors. Just thinking out loud here.
posted
I'm not sure how helpful this will be (or how long it will be before this thread gets nuked), but I'd like to say that what Doug has said about'censorship' is the exact reason I have not become a Resident yet. In fact, if this policy were reversed, I would join in a second.
I feel that there is a very real ambiguity between the way people are made to feel that they should 'support' the site vs. paying for the service that Steve and Barb are providing through it. I mean, is the site a source of income for you or is it a service that you are providing out of the goodness of your heart (so to speak)with revenues going to support the improvement/continuation of the site? I'm not trying to be malisciously facetious or stir anything up by saying this, I would really just like to know the answer.
I really don't have a problem with either one, if you are making a killing off the site, then more power to you. I am happy for you. Just please be clear on what your intentions are.
Anyway, that's just my feelings on the issue. I have no idea if anyone else feels the same way. Again, if the 'censorship' policy was reversed then I would join in a second, because it's not about the money. I would pay aLOT more than $50.00 to get the help/insight that I've gotten from the people on this board.
PS. And if there was an 8 hour delay or something like what Doug mentioned that would be a good way of getting the money out of me as well! :)
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
One of the things I've collected over the years are pricing guides. I have them from the thirties and forties and every so often since. Western Sign Supply in LA had one in the sixties. The unions had them way back when too. When Jack Rumph and Judi Smith worked on the one out today, it was a real welcome. As time went on, Judi wrote the pricing guide into a dos program that many people use. If it were updated into a windows format it might be more practical. The Mark's have great programs also.
I still like to make two columns on a piece of paper. One for time and one for materials. I'll itemize the steps to produce the sign, including driving to get lumber. Put the numbers in the right columns in dollars for materials and in quarter hours for labor. Tally it up and add a profit and compare that to the pricing guides and your gut feeling. I often find it actually costs me more to produce a sign than the price I wanted to sell it for. I like to do this type of check periodically on different types of signs just to see if I'm in line. More often than not, I find the guides to be more in line than my gut feelings for coming up with a price that can provide some savings and family vacations.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Shane....nothing is really free! Yes, this site is a source of income for Steve & Barb....but ...it is a full time job for them!
They have to pay for the server, PLUS put in 8 to 10 hours a day to keep this ite going and answering Email concerning the site! I know tha becaus when the spent 2 weeks visiting us and attending Cal. Conclave, theywere on 2 comuters, mornings and evenings...all relating to dealing with this site!!!
All BB have to have some sort of monitor...to keep things from exploding and degenerating into name calling, porn and general free for all!
Just my $2.98 worth!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You SHOULD run tests overy so often to check your prices, your costs, your time.
These price books are a great guide with a lot of helpful information. If you can use the book exactly the way it is written and price all of your work with it AND come out way ahead or even a little ahead at the end of the year, that is great!
Running tests on your business is also a way to determine for your self if you have improved, become more efficient, Eliminated a step while maintaining quality and on and on. Looking back at your tests over the years lets you know how the world, your business and your skills (and bank account) have changed. We learn from the past and with this BB we learn from each other.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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I agree 100% (I kinda have to, cuz if I **** you off, you might stop giving me advice)...
I don't have beef with Steve & Barb making $$$ from the site at all. I'm just expressing to them what is keeping me from whipping out my wallet and plunking down the $50.00. So if they care to hear my thoughts as a potential 'resident' then cool, otherwise, hey, that's cool too; it is their site, after all.
In any event, I have no beef whatsoever about even the 'censorship' thing. It's their site and they can do anything they want with it. I'm just making my point and moving on...
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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It is a beautiful thing that you no longer have an issue with the "censorship thing", have no problem with Barb and Steve making a living providing this awesomely informative (somewhat like SignCraft, Sign Business, and others do in print)website and bulletin board, and you appreciate the ramblings of our resident Arab sign painter Si. Me, too... Si is bigger than I am. He may be older but he has experience on his side. He told me that age and experience will kick the crap out youth and enthusiasm every time! I believe him.
All this being mentioned, the check should be in the mail tomorrow, eh? Make it out to "Letterville Website". You should mark "Residency Taxes" in the memo section.... it is tax deductible, you know...
Have a great one!
[ June 08, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Didn't say I didn't have an issue with the censorship, just not a 'beef' there's a difference, see?
And no, I have absolutely no issue OR beef with them making HUGE mounds of cash, PILES even! (Not that they do).
But, if the 'censorship' were to stop, then I would become a resident right away. And I wouldn't send a check, I'd put it on my credit card, just so we could all have instant gratification.
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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I don't think Steve is censoring anyone. Every successful BB has to have a moderator (a very thankless job). Otherwise, all you'd have is anarchy. Then,those who truly want to learn and to share would leave because of all the crap that insues.
Steve'n'Barb have a tough job. Its not easy trying to balance the wants and needs of the participants with the wants and needs of the advertisers.
This is the number one sign-related BB on the web. Steve'n'Barb must be doing something right.
BOB, ON YOUR WAY FROM ARIZONA TO WASHINGTON, YOU CAN STOP IN OREGON AND PICK ME UP, I'M RIGHT OFF THE FREEWAY. I speak with Cheryl landline and appreciate her genuine down to earth ability to carry on a conversation without the crying and whining she has been accused of by the central scrutinizer. If only one or two could actually utilize the correct colors and design, that would be Cheryl and although she may lack diplomacy at times, she is on the money is my book.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
Call it a "beef" or an "issue"... same thing. You will always find some reason not to send the money.
You are just playing a punk card.
Have a great one.
[ June 08, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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The feuding that goes on around this place sometimes is really stupid and childish.
Don't get me wrong: I love a good, passionate debate as much as the next guy. I just think that when it gets personal, THE SMART THING TO DO IS JUST IGNORE IT. Take the high road. Turn the other cheek. Pretend that person doesn't exist. SHUN them into silence.
Why waste all of the creative energy you've been blessed with on such trivialities?
Don't like my suggestion? Then ignore it!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
hey Jon...I do agree with you....but as you can see neither YOU or I have chosen to ignore it. Sometimes the only way to handle the bullies and fatheads is to NOT ignore them but not let them shove ya either. Now what was this topic about anyways?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
YOU KNOW, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT GOES ON ON THE BB.....IT'S A "FORUM" SO SAY WHAT YOU LIKE.....BUY FROM WHOEVER YOU LIKE, SLAM ANYBODY YOU WANT TO. STEVE AND BARB HAVE A BUSINESS TO RUN HERE, AND THEY SHOULD RUN IT ANYWAY THEY LIKE! I PAY MY $50 AND GET MORE THAN MY MONEYS WORTH IN INFORMATION, ADVICE, AND ENTERTAINMENT. I POST OR DON'T POST, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY ELSE IS DOING WHEN IT PERTAINS TO MY BUSINESS PRACTICES, AND I EXPECT OTHERS TO DO THE SAME. EVERY GROUP HAS IT'S KNOT HEADS....AFTER A SHORT TIME ON THIS BB, WE LEARN WHO THEY ARE....SO EITHER SLAM 'EM OR LEAVE 'EM ALONE.....WHO CARES! THE PROBLEM WITH KNOTHEADS, IS THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEY'RE KNOTHEADS. IF THEY ONLY KNEW THEY WERE KNOTHEADS, THINGS WOULD BE TOLERABLE. SOMETIMES IT TAKES A PERSON WITH BALLS TO TELL THOSE WHO SHOULD BE TOLD! BUT BASICALLY, I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S PATOOT! I GOT A LITTLE BUSINESS TO RUN, AND A LIFE TO LIVE!
I'm sorry that you're so upset about this, sir. But from my perspective, there is a difference. I don't think that Steve/Barb have a problem as far as the 'censorship' thing goes. Like I said, it's their site, and they can run it any way they want.
What I am telling you is that I will not pay the $50.00 because of this policy. That is, I have a problem with the policy that is keeping me from joining.
So please don't judge. If that policy was changed, i'd join, and that's that. I said in my first post up there that $50.00 is not much to pay, and I meant it.
In any event, I am not trying to slam Steve and Barb in any way. I am just trying to communicate to them what is keeping me from joining. Perhaps they will listen to what I've said and change the policy, and perhaps they won't. In any case, I respect them and their site/their rules.
Lets all have some respect, shall we?
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
This is just my opinion,1st I like what Bob said for $50 you get information, advice and entertainment. I am a visitor for the time being, and when I have family taken care of first (trying to buy a house and open my shop all at once) I will become a resident. I have been looking for a site like this for awhile. Lastnight I had a good conversation with Si, Steve, Del and a few others. And for $50 I see it as a contribution to thise site and Steve and Barbs great effort to keep this up and runnin. And the difference between a resident or visitor to me that is, is that link at my left saying resident download Cant's wit to see what is in there (feel like a lil kid opening a cracker jack box, want to know what is my surprise is)
Right now tho, I do appretiate this wonderful site for all the knowledge that I have used and will use in the future. And when the time is right, I will pay my dues to keep this site up so when the next guy like myself finds this site and can meet nice people like yourself.
Thats all..........oh was i suppose to say somethin about pricing?????
-------------------- Frank Weidman Waukegan, Il. Posts: 71 | From: Waukegan, Il. | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I'm not sure exactly what Shane means about consorship, but since there was a reference to my use of the word, I will clarify my thoughts. I agree with Glenn, that a moderator is an essential part of the board & Steve & Barb are serving us in that capacity without truely censoring reasonable degrees of free speech.
On the other hand, I do feel a little too much push for us to keep the fund-raising needs of this site in mind during our participation in the site. I have spoken out against a policy on another board where a direct request for information cannot be answered with a link to that information if that source is not a board sponsor. At least that is not a problem here. We are free to praise Mark's book & critique Jack's if we want.
The fact that we are encouraged to hint that Mark pay a sponsorship fee when we praise his products, or to tread lightly on Jack's product if we critique it is the area of my concern.
If someone is already in my store spending money, they are not required to hawk my wares to any passers-by nor do I make them wear an Island Sign t-shirt or slap a bumper sticker on there car. Advertising my business is my job, & if my customers choose to make referrals that's a bonus. On the other hand if a bunch of tire kickers are standing around chatting in front of my sign & blocking the door, but not spending any money, I will eventually ask them to move along.
Obviously you are a man of great principle. If you find this site distasteful and objectionable according to your principle(s) then you should leave and never give this BB another look or thought. This is not a co-op or political function where any one of us get to vote or influence the rules. We are guests in Steve and Barbs 'house' and a such abide by their rules and hospitality which I feel is way beyond generous. If we are able we should bring the 'beer' and our respect for fellow guests.
Refusing to become a resident on some personal principle is probably the lamest excuse I have ever heard. Especially when you make it clear that it is affordable and a practical expenditure. I can respect someone who cannot afford to pay the tax because of financial difficulty but needs to access this site to better themselves professionally. Personally I could think of better ways to spend $75 in Canadian funds because I still struggle financially after being 'downsized' out of a long term job and a nasty divorce not to mention a huge investment of not only my own funds but time and energy in my own business without any outside support.
Normally I don't engage in controversial posts but disrespectful people and especially those braggarts who rub our noses in their huge financial success without 'bringing beer' to Steve and Barbs 'party in their house' tend to get a rise out of me.
p.s.: for those hard of understanding 'beer' is an analogy for 'taxes'. I'm not sure Steve and Barb would appreciate numerous shipments of beer to their home!(LOL)
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It seems that what I have written has come off as a personal attack or something akin to it. If that is the case, then I am truly sorry. Really.
But I don't think your remarks are fair. I never meant to imply that I have huge financial success, the only thing that I said was that $50.00 is cheap for the kind of info I have access to here. What is so wrong about me voicing my opinion about my feelings on this matter that it makes people become so defensive?
I am willing to accept the idea that I could be wrong about this, but it really is my gut feeling that it is not the way that it should be. This place belongs to the Shortreeds, and they can run it any way they want. I'm just communicating to them, and to the rest reading, that if this were not the case, I would join. I'm not saying that the Shortreeds are bad, or lame, or punks (to use some of the popular terms), I'm just saying that this is the issue that I have with becoming a member.
I also take issue with your comment: "Refusing to become a resident on some personal principle is probably the lamest excuse I have ever heard." Really? Do you really mean that? First off, there's no excuse-making going on. No one challenged me about why I had not yet become a resident yet, I laid this out without a challenge, initially. That's not an excuse, it's a 'visitor' commenting on a thread.
The only thing about your comments that really upset me is where you mentioned disrespect. Have I been disrespectful? If I have, please tell me where, and I will apologize. The last thing that I want to do is disrespect anyone here on the board, even those of you who are attacking me. It doesn't make me feel good to cut others down or make them feel crummy, which is why I will always refuse to respond in-kind to posts like these.
This thread took on an emotional curve from the get-go, so if my comments have upset any of you, I apologize. But I stand by what I said, because that's how I really feel. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't think I am. If you think I'm wrong, why not explain to me in a respectful way why you think so?
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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