posted June 05, 2002 02:11 PM
Hi all. I have 'met' Mark Roberts thru this site 'Letterville'. And have since received his price guide book and now his CD. I truly enjoy his words of wisdom and honesty. He tells it like it is, which is very important. (something I can definately relate to!)
Anyways.....I just wanted to say thanks Mark! I always enjoy your personal notes you include. You are quite the inspirational motivator. I love your pricing info and strongly recommend it to those who are interested in pricing right! Mark, you are pretty much right on. In other words: not so ridiculously overpriced and certainly not underpriced. You seem to be totally in tune with the changes happening in the sign business. I am sure others will agree. It is a helpful tool for all sign shops.
www.signprice.com Price Index Manual for the Commercial Sign Industry
posted June 05, 2002 03:32 PM
MARK ROBERTS definitely knows and understands the "real" world of signs. Even though i agree with his book for the most part, it turns out that my pricing is generally higher. I offer the best turnaround in the area, and, because of current technology, I can do almost anything that's not screen printing, electrical, or installations, so I build that into my prices. I'm about 99% "in house" where the money is, and I don't pay no mind to the competition(hell, I do signs for THEM, too.....and since I'm NOT a wholesaler, I charge RETAIL). So, SIGN PRICING BOOKS & programs don't do me a whole lot of good.
posted June 05, 2002 04:00 PM
How does his book compare to the signwriters book as far as being right on? Some of the Signwriters is way off base as far as I see but I have seen some in it where I charge more. And, do you really need the cd-rom also? I have been sitting down here today trying to figure out a "price list" and I just have to play it by ear not knowing what other sign shops in my area want for stuff. I have got to get away from the "I'll call you back in a little bit with a quote" syndromem, I am a firm beleiver that that creates the "can't you come down a little cheaper" syndrome. I want a price qutoe immeditaly giving a "firm" feeling on my price.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted June 05, 2002 07:32 PM
John....sometimes the signwriters guide is pretty high. Which is why I liked Marks. I have had my own method of pricing for years. When I go to meetings it is certainly nice to have a large price guide handy for reference.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted June 05, 2002 07:37 PM
I have Mark's book and have found it to be pretty accurate for my area. I also think it's prices are a bit more realistic than Signwriters, at least to me anyway.
posted June 05, 2002 07:45 PM
I would like to have a real, honest to goodness, professional looking book to go by. It would look like you have some sort of "industry standard" to go by. I think that people will be more likely to pay that price if it is a real figure out of a book and not off of the top of my head or on a piece of paper. I am going to order it tomorrow, what about the cd-rom though? Do you guys use it too? I have the signwriters and I have tried using a % method but I just still don't like it that way, seems like I still come up way off sometimes.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted June 05, 2002 08:09 PM
I can't let this slip by without getting in a word for one of our own Letterville Merchants. Jack Rumph, producer of the original Signwriter's Pricing Guide has been producing his product since 1969. I can remember numerous pricing seminars he did at Letterhead Meets through the year.
The Sign Contractor's Pricing Guide resembles other pricing guides people are familiar with. Drop by his website to learn more.
If you decide to go with Mark, please be sure to tell him you discovered him here in Letterville. A few sales may be just the added incentive he needs to become a Letterville Merchant. And don't forget! Have any new Merchant mention your name when they move to Letterville and we'll send you $50 for a meal on us.
-------------------- Barb Shortreed 144 Hill St. E. Fergus, Ontario Posts: 2380 | From: Fergus, Ont. | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted June 06, 2002 07:59 AM
Sorry Barb & Jack Rumph, but I have the sign contractors' & one of these days I might use it to start up my grill if I run out of lighter fluid.
Its too bad we don't ever hear what Mark has to say about one thing or another on the BullBoard...
I really like his "Sign Consultant" Thing.
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted June 06, 2002 11:20 AM
I have known Mark for many years. We met while doing our "seminars & workshops" at SB shows.While I always had sucessful "seminars & workshops" teaching Airbrushing/Pinstriping, Mark's classes seemed to always draw the largest crowd & would be"over-booked".His professionalism is contageous! Mark's book is not a one man's idea on pricing, but a real cross section of pricing throughout the country. I know that he welcomes any ideas on how to improve the guide. One last note. When I give a customer a quote out of the book,(when heor she is in my office)my price is NEVER questioned. It sure beats the eyes in the sky "uh it'll cost ya about $150 bucks" routine.
posted June 06, 2002 12:03 PM
I got the Signwriters book with my first supply order when I first started. I had no clue about pricing so when I flipped through the book I thought to myself "Man this awesome, I am going to get rich being able to charge these prices". Then a reality check hit me!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted June 06, 2002 02:38 PM
I met Mark (& Mr. J) in seminars a few years ago and purchased Marks book. This was before I even got into the business. He is a great guy to chat with and really wants to help all of us out.
I also purchased the signwriters guide and have gone back and forth between them when there is something that I haven't done before. I've been kicked out of a few places while showing the price right out of the signwriters guide but for the most part now I use EstiMate software which really gives that professional touch.
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted June 06, 2002 03:21 PM
With all the criterias I could list for arriving on a price for any given job, I can surely appreciate the need for ANY price guides or programs that have sorted things out already and help with the confusion. Whichever one suits a person’s comfort level works!
Still, I scarcely poke my nose in a price guide, ... haven’t much in many years. My instincts are the tool I rely on more.
I, personally, have a special appreciation for Jack Rumph’s guides, and sieze the opportunity here to thank him for flinging me into the world of pricing signs on the right foot. Kind of a shame to see him getting slighted abit on this post, and ironic that it’s for the value he places on our work. I learned by his books back in the early 80's, and consistantly got the prices listed there, if not higher given differing circumstances. Being new in the biz then, I didn’t know to feel intimidated by those so called “big numbers” they were just numbers, and with a smile, I just let’em roll. Got the jobs too …. go figure! Kinda glad I learned to charge on a high note now! I still refer to his guide on rare occasions as a refresher on stuff that I don't do much of, like walls or gold leaf.
More and more my goals in business evolve to emulate those who already have the kind of success that I want. That strongly influences me in how I charge also. I’m continually learning to price, adjusting things by the guidelines of my own life’s changing needs and goals, and not the guidelines of a book. Learning to let the right numbers roll off my tongue, and speaking them with confidence has made the instances of anyone questioning my price few and far between. Staying busy with higher paying jobs has made the ones who baulk, easier to do without.
People who invest in themselves really impress me so I won’t neglect to mention that Jack pays to advertise here. As does Mark Smith from EstiMate who offers a great sign estimating software program. They give a good example for others to follow.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted June 06, 2002 03:35 PM
John...In reference to your not liking the idea of having to say "I'll get back to you with a price". Personally I find this to be the BEST way to get the most for my work. If the customer asks why I can't give him a price on the spot I just say there are too many things to be considered and I don't want to screw either him OR me. Never had anyone question that statement.
I DO have to do some calculations if the job is over $25. Cost of substrate, cost of painting backgrounds, cost of vinyl materials, my labour, my profit. If I just shoot from the hip one of us IS gonna get screwed, and with my luck it will be ME!!! I think it adds credibility to have to do some calculations to arrive at a price.
With all that said though...Make sure you set a short time frame to get back to the customer with a price...like... "I will call you, with a price, within an hour of my return to the shop" or something of that nature. Not a vague "I'll get back to ya"
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted June 06, 2002 05:56 PM
In reference to Jack's Signwriter's Pricing Guide, I hope he'll take this opportunity to participate in this discussion. Rather than seeing these comments as a "slight" against SPG, I hope he'll see it as an opportunity to educate us. Heaven knows I could always use help in understanding and learning.
I've always looked at the SPG as a bit unrealistic in its numbers. This is not intended to be inflamatory or negative toward Jack or SPG, but rather my perception of what I see in his book compared to what is happening in my area/region. That said, how are the numbers in SPG derived? Why do the prices listed seem so much higher than other price books / software? Why is SPG right and the others wrong? Am I going about pricing things in an incorrect manner? What am I doing wrong? What can I do to get SPG's prices?
Again, I suspect Jack is pretty busy, but I really do hope he'll honor us with his participation. I know I would be very thankful. I hope Mark Smith will join in too.
[ June 06, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted June 06, 2002 06:29 PM
I was hoping the same thing Glenn. Also I do want to clarify something. When I post, I don't look at the merchants listed and post accordingly. I pretty much write about what I am excited about at the moment. Such as when I won some fonts from Sign DNA (Dave Simpson) awhile back, I recall seeing the 'scolding' that occurs from a certain individual, who so often proclaims their greatness on this board and seems to have an overabundance of self adoration. I do appreciate the fact that the merchants are a part of this board. I have used and do carry a signwriters pricing guide and have for years, although it does seem high. I also price the way I want yet find it very helpful having Marks price guide to take to meetings where there are several people to present prices to. It really does help.
People who are real and don't constantly pat themselves on the back impress the hell outta me.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted June 06, 2002 07:14 PM
Here is my most unbiased opinion about how to price a sign. 1) What is the sign worth to your customer? 2) Is the sign advertising or informational related? 3) What does it cost you to produce the sign? 4) Will the sign deliver the proper return on investment for you? 5) Will the sign project fit into your workflow this week? 6) Will this sign cause you to work overtime and rob your family of their husband, wife, mother or father for the evening, or the entire weekend? 7) Do you have ample time to create a unique sign for your customer, or do they care? 8) Do you really enjoy the types of signs that you are currently pricing or bidding? 9) Would you rather be making other types of signs, but are trapped into making signs you really do not enjoy because you “own a job”? 10) Who are you pricing for? Your customer, yourself, your family, your future?
You see our industry is so unique and has so many variables that formulas, software, and yes ..even price books can only get us to an approximation. The true cost of any sign is not in the price, but how effectively is conveys the message for the customer. For informational signs, the perceived value is low; however for advertising related signs, value perception is determined by the customer, and he or she will pay whatever it takes to achieve their goals through the use of a sign. The choices you have to assist you in arriving at your selling price are many, including books from Jack and myself, and the finest pricing software I have found, which is the Estimate program from Mark Smith. In fact, I have all of these in my shop, and perhaps you should too. Gather all the facts and knowledge to arrive at a selling price that will not only be a value for the customer, but will also reward you properly for your hard work and skills that are necessary to maintain a healthy lifestyle and provide for a comfortable retirement. Begin with the end in mind. Show me your way, I’ll show you my way, but THE way doesn’t exist!
For you Letterheads in beautiful North Texas, be sure to drop by the "Showdown in Cowtown" this weekend. I will be teaching a new seminar: "Simple Sign Shop Success Secrets". I think you will like it.
-------------------- Mark K. Roberts The InterSign Group Mark Roberts Instructional Productions 9700 Almeda Genoa Road Houston, TX. 77075 Posts: 8 | From: Houston, TX. U.S.A. | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted June 06, 2002 07:41 PM
No one is scolding anyone. Like most of you, we are in business too. Yes dear friends, Letterville is a business.
Let's say Cheryl letters all the trucks for Joe's Towing. Joe believes in Cheryl and the service she offers. As a result, he invests in her and her business. If someone asks Cheryl if she can recommend a towing company, I would hope Joe at least gets a mention.
It's no different here in Letterville. We have Merchants that believe in the website and pay to advertise here. When those that spend their advertising dollar elsewhere get a free plug, I see nothing wrong in recommending a Letterville Merchant first.
A website is different than a magazine. Magazines publish once a month and have complete control over their content and advertising. There is no free lunch when it comes to promoting a product or service in their pages. Why should it be different here?
We've seen several posts in the past from vendors upset over the copying and trading of their CDs. Who can blame them? The fact that it is easy to do does not make it right. The potential loss of income could result in future CDs not being produced and that would be a loss to all of us.
Free plugs and links to supplier websites have become a daily part of your posts in Letterville. We understand that most of this is just an effort to be helpful on your part. We're more than happy to see vendors get a couple free plugs. When we see a non Merchant mentioned, we always notify them and sing the vitues of Letterville. With an average of 10,000 people reading this BB daily, one has to wonder why everyone isn't a Merchant.
Running Letterville, like any business, is a balancing act. The knowledge, live meet promotion and all the good times are free. Advertising is another matter. Please put yourselves in our shoes. Instead of promoting or adding live links to non Merchants, why not contact and sell them on Letterville. In the long run, everyone benefits.
By the way, those seriously interested in taking home more from their sign business need to talk to Chip Carter. He'll teach you how to determine YOUR hourly shop rate and forget about what others are doing. You'll find him at www.sign-consultants.com
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted June 06, 2002 10:05 PM
I can understand your point Steve.
Let's say Steve developes some land and forms a neighborhood. Anyone can move in. Steve then throws a free BBQ. Many neighbors arrive. Some bring food, others bring drinks and some just show up for the good time. There are 3 landscapers at the BBQ. Two are members of the club. They pay their dues. Several neighbors have used these landscapers services and are very pleased. One neighbor shows up all excited about the service she got from the non member landscaper. Others gather around eager to find out about all the different landscaping techniques. Each landscaper is very good at what he does and charges accordingly. There are all kinds at the BBQ which is what makes it so interesting. There are funny ones, some are serious. Many are down to earth. A couple are sitting up on some cloud. Most find the topics interesting and are happy to be having such a good time at the BBQ.
I would say the BBQ should not have been free. Next time only let the paying members in. After all we wouldn't want to learn anything new or debate any issues that weren't to our liking.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted June 06, 2002 11:26 PM
Oh what the heck. I say we do all signs for free from here on out. Waddaya say. It will sure save us some headaches trying to price them out!
posted June 07, 2002 12:14 AM
If some of the neighbors continuously have a mahl stick up their ass, this neighborhood will get mighty annoying. I really do wonder how some people fit thru their front door. Or perhaps they spend all day inside looking at how great they are?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted June 07, 2002 06:30 AM
Hey Guys, um, I wanted to take back what I said earlier. I guess it was unnecessary. I think Glenn said in nicer words what I meant:
"I've always looked at the SPG as a bit unrealistic in its numbers. "
Anyway, sorry. I feel I was out o'line.
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted June 07, 2002 12:20 PM
Some day I hope to be as great as those in question here. Greatness being defined as people wiling to share, that continue to grow as artists, that inspire others, and that run successful businesses.
One shouldn't confuse ego with pride in their work and reputation.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted June 07, 2002 01:20 PM
DAN, There's not a whole lot of us out here that possesss the creative ability and business sence that you have. Most of us fall short on one or the other, or both in varying degrees. Many of us are doing this merely to make a living, others to satisfy their creative egos. All of it is OK, and it's all fruit salad made up of apples and oranges, which leads to all the frustration brought out occassionally on this board. Ideas are often conflicting both in a creatve and personal sense. We're ALL unique in our own way. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
[ June 07, 2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
posted June 07, 2002 01:54 PM
Actually what the deal is, is being realistic. I see some claim to get zillions for every completely awesome sign they make. Everything they touch turns to gold. Hm. Imagine that. Yeah right. Try talking in a straight line sometime instead of talking in circles. I love this site when people speak truthfully and don't constantly pump themselves up. My O MY....I am just wondering how it feels to be so friggin perfect. My thoughts are, let others recognize you for what you are. If you have to constantly point out your greatness, I have news for ya, you aint that great. Rick Sacks is talking the truth on his most recent post. This is the way alot of sign meetings are going these days. Alot of people don't care what the signs look like, they just want them NOW and cheap. I felt Ricks frustration as I have been there. Rick does some awesome work, yet it still happened. This is frustrating and it brings inner conflict. One wants to do the best design for the customer. But one does not always get a zillion dollars for it. I have had my share of cheap customers too, but I have also had my share of great ones. Bob is also speaking correctly when he states that some can run their sign business as a little hobby. They have another income to help with the bills. They may not have kids. All I am saying is I could talk all day and some still just would not get it. I even tried typing slower and that didn't work either. Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted June 07, 2002 02:01 PM
i am sorry cheryl but i really don't get what you are trying to say. who are these people you speak of???
do you blame these people for your lack of success in the sign business?
Winners expect the best. Whiners expect the worst. And you usually get what you expect to get.
2. Whiners ask “why me?”. Winners “why not me?”. Accept the challenge and find a solution.
3. Winners say “I can!”. Whiners say “I can’t”. You cannot achieve what you do not believe.
4. Whiners quit when the going gets tough. Winners keep going when the going gets tough. Keep going and know what the finish line feels like.
5. Winners know that TODAY is the only day that you have. Whiners are always wondering “what if”, and “if only”, and “when”.
6. Whiners say “what I do doesn’t matter anyway.” Winners know that what you do is ALL that matters. A well-lived present always adds up to a great future.
7. Winners focus on the solution. Whiners focus on the problem.
8. Whiners blame other people and circumstances for their problems. Winners believe that they have responsibility for their own lives. It’s not about sacrifice; it is about compromise.
9. Winners organize, simplify and automate. Whiners think “that’s just the way it is”.
10. Winners ask for what they want and need. Whiners complain…and nothing changes. Yes, you have the power to be miserable the rest of your life.
Act as if it were impossible to fail. Your purest, most advanced, and quickest learning took place when as a child you had no concept of failure. You learned to walk and talk because no one ever told you that you might fail.
"Your future is largely dependent on what you do in the present; you must focus on what you can do right now to create the future you desire." But I don't have this, or I don't have that, you might say. YOU are your own best resource. Look at your world through the eyes of someone who believes that it can happen...who doesn't even entertain the idea that it won't happen.
Positive thinking, positive expectations, visualization, and the power of attraction, while all valid and useful are passive. In the end, your success in life depends on what YOU DO. No matter how positive your attitude, there is only one way to succeed, and that is in the active mode.
Author Unknown
[ June 07, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
posted June 07, 2002 02:24 PM
One of the self imposed challenges I have found at "hosting" any small BBQ, party, or jam sessions for my musician friends is worrying about everyones happyness. (I also worry about how & when to drop the "y" in spelling)
Anyway it can be a pain to make sure everyone's having fun. Especially if ex-lovers or feuding former-friends, or just different-strokes folks show up to the BBQ. I really think the host should do what is within their own control & trust that other peoples impressions of what went down at the party will put praise or blame where it is due. Of course stopping an all out brawl is in everyones interest, but the ocassional free speech & expression of different opinions (not neccessarily the views of the host)should proceed. I'm talking about my BBQ's, not this one, but there can always be comparisons.
I see a lot of thought provoking topics that Cheryl posts & I enjoy reading them. Kudos to her for getting them started, but once they take on a life of their own I don't think she, or Steve need to feel any different about how this slice of life on the BB goes then any of the rest of us.
I really liked Jeanette's comments because stepping up to add balance to the slant of comments on Jacks guidebook is the kind of thing I find myself doing to smooth out any inequities in a social setting where my self-appointed diplomat tendencies make me worry about everyones happiness. I also was inspired or impressed with confident & self-assured references to her ability to set prices on-the-fly, accurately, & maybe at the high end of an acceptable range.
As for Steve's comments, I had to laugh at Cheryl's BBQ analogy because I have also felt that once we're allowed in the party (especially if we paid our cover charge) we should be ourselves & praise who we want, speak of how our business is run & what products we use. We are not campaign volunteers devoted to waiving the Letterville flag, or the merchant flag. we are individuals. If we all sat around promoting the handfull of paying merchants, not only would this place be too boring to get the "hits" it gets or command the advertising fees it already gererates, but we should be getting a share of the ad fee, not paying to help advertise, & censor any praise of outsider vendors.
posted June 07, 2002 04:01 PM
To all those that may have a maulstick up their ass, I have one simple request, when you turn arournd, please do so very slowly., I have paint in cups nearby.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted June 07, 2002 04:27 PM
OK Mark. I will type extra slow just for you. I think those I am speaking of know very well who they are. Either that or they are just so self absorbed in their own little greatness they just don't have a clue. Take your pick. A multiple choice will make it easy for ya. As far as 'my lack of success'. If you define success as making lots and lots of money and that is your main objective, then I am a complete failure. For the past 27 years I have pretty much 'done my best'. I have been solely self employed except for working at a sign shop for one month when I was first divorced. I stick up for what I believe and I certainly don't let myself get pushed around. Especially by little weasels such as yourself Mark. If you define success as being happy with yourself, bringing up 2 kids on your own, owning your own home, being honest with others and kind to your neighbors, then I am a complete success! I prefer to think of myself in this catagory.
I am really scratching my head on which catagory you are in tho Mark.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted June 07, 2002 04:50 PM
BTW mark. Please stop emailing me. Your stupid remarks just clarify which catagory you are really in.
I will however save the email you send me as well as some of the nasty ones you have emailed other Letterheads that I have saved and put them all in a nice big post for all to see. Woudn't that be fun?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I think it adds credibility to have to do some calculations to arrive at a price.
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