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I just haven't gotten consistent results with the Zeronine foils. I'm using and Edge2 and have heard others have the same problem and others who haven't.
I myself swear by Duracoat ribbons. I pay $115 for 100 yard refills.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Bruce...that's pretty good pricing. Have you noticed consistant results with the Duracoat? I printed something the other day with a Duracoat spot black, and after printing, I noticed it had semi-circular looking "rub" marks where the Duracoat printed....not sure why. I mean, it printed solid without any spots missing...but there were these burnished semi-circular shapes throughout the areas printed with the spot black Duracoat.
Anyone else ever experience that?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Good morning, Todd. My experience goes back several years and may not reflect what is going on today, but here it is.
We did one job with CMYK Duracoat as a result of a supply house sales promotion price that was just too good to pass up. We had difficulty setting print head heats to produce acceptable results. The job was a big one, and it came out ok, and as far as I know the signs are still in service.
Fiddling with heat settings killed Duracoat for me, we went back to Gerber.
We also purchase zero-nine spot foils when they had a color we wanted. They run just like Gerber foils, ie, no fiddling. We never tried their CMYK foils because we were mostly a spot color shop.
As far as price goes, I think we were paying $85-$90 for the Gerber foils. We purchased mostly from Montroy Supply in California. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Todd, I get the Duracoat foils from HEXIS in Corona, CA.
I'm using them on the Edge2, mostly printing on Oracal 651. Only setting I ever make is that I use the Quantum 2000 vinyl settings. Always get good results.
I've even tried an alcohol rub test comparing them to Gerber ribbons. When you rub the print with alcohol, the Gerber Foil comes off quicker than the Duracoats do.
Just my experience, Edge 1 users may get different results.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Todd- I had the same thing happen with Duracoat spot black 2 years ago. I called the company (IIMAK?). They said use the "lighter" setting but I told them I already did. Believe it or not their tech guy actually told me their process black is a better product and the spot black had this issue all the time. He sent me a free 50 yd process black catridge to try and it did the same thing. Those were the first and only 100 yds of Durachrome foil I ever used. I have no problems with the little bit of ZeroNine that I use. Did yours sound like popcorn popping as it printed too?
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The answer to your question about which foil is the best choice is undoubtedly dependent upon who is providing the answer.
As you know, I am unrepentantly pro-Gerber. This is probably an annoying trait to some, but I make no excuses.
From an actual product performance point of view...I'm sure that the "other" foil manufacturers will gladly provide you with a sample. I would recommend testing each of them thoroughly and deciding for yourself. I suspect you will find that GerberColor provides superior print quality, and better chemical and scuff resistance -- all in all, day-in and day-out --GerberColor foils will provide you with better, more reliable performance.
Gerber took their exclusive Matched Technology System (MTS) to new heights when they developed the EDGE 2. Software and Firmware were "fine tuned" to address each possible combination of GerberColor cartridge foil colour printed on each Gerber EDGE Ready material. The net benefit of this "fine tuning" (I'm starting to feel like Doctor Evil with my use of quotation marks) is that you can expect even more consistently superior print quality with an EDGE 2, when using all gerber components.
If you are the type of individual who is confident in selling value added, you should familiarize yourself (and ultimately your customers) with Gerber's exclusive MTS warranty. Using suitable all-Gerber compnents means your printed graphics are covered by MTS. This means peace of mind for you and your customers. People will pay extra for this.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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So..............were your Duracoat problems with the Edge1 or Edge2?? I use nothing but process black.....and have never seen the problem your describing....on the Edge2. Nor do I mess with the heat settings.
It's funny cause the only time I've actually messed with heat settings was when I was trying to use Zeronine ribbons. I still have a few of those foils left.....and they still give me the various random lines through the print. They are usually not horizontal or vertical.....almost french fry shaped....or a little thinner. I do hear Edge1 people swear by Zeronine though, which makes me think the two machines handle the two different ribbons differently.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm glad to hear the Duracoat popping thing is consistant too, I always think the foil is going to snap or the Edge is "eating" the foil. I have had too many "foil" related problem with duracoat, such as the spot black issue and also the heat setting issue. One job cost me over $300.00 in a CMYK job when using Duracoat process cyan when the gerber ran out.
I have since gone all Gerber and offer their matched warranty too. I tried 3M's equivelant to Scothcal 220 series once, I had a printing problem, called Gerber, they asked what material I was using. I told them it was the new 3M version of their 220 series, well that was the end of that, lol.
Recently I was printing on Deluxe Silver ( which is VERY expensive vinyl) and towards the end of the roll I had consistant screw ups when printing.
I called Gerber told them the problem, came to be the roll wasn't punched properly, I had only 6 feet of a 10 yard roll left, the shipped me a new 10 yard roll of the deluxe silver.
So now we don't even think of switching, it costs too much to use anything else.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Todd, I thought you would like to hear from the source. ZeroNine ribbons print great on vinyl. But remember not all vinyl's are created equal, the same holds true for ribbons. At this time ZeroNine ribbons print best on the Edge 1 and when using an Edge 2 set your speeds at 600 x 300 or Edge 1.
We have print tested our ribbons using the Edge 2, on 3.2 mil and 2 mil vinyl's. The best performance is delivered when matching the proper substrate settings with the intended vinyl to be printed. In other words calling a generic 3.2 mil vinyl-Quantam 2000, and 2 mil vinyl 220 or perhaps 225 premium.
If you choose the ZeroNine brand of Process Colors you will notice a difference. Our colors are a bit brighter resulting with more contrast and definition. Try a set and see for yourself.
-------------------- Owen Scheppman ZeroNine Mfg Co Inc 1230 Claussen Drive Woodstock, IL 60098 Posts: 1 | From: 1230 Claussen Dr., Woodstock, IL 60098 | Registered: Jun 2002
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I hate to dump on Duracoat, I normally print small decals and an occasional defect is no big deal. But I just printed a process job with 36" panels and the defects are killing me. Scrolling back through the foils I found things as big as a hair coated in. My savings just went out the window.
Has anyone compared the number of coating defects per square foot of foil?
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1703 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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I don't know who's the worst for defects...but I can tell you I have seen plenty of them in Gerbers Foils as well. Empty pinholes, little chunks, etc....they aren't unbearable...but they do pop up here and there.
I think the main thing is what gets dragged "onto" the foils....you know, the dust and dirt that the winding and unwinding vinyl picks up off the table the Edge is sitting on as it's passing to and fro through the printer. This would be the stuff that the "whiskers" seem to miss.
I've found that you MUST keep an ultra clean work table...wiping it down before printing...I even wipe down the vinyl itself before it goes through because it can tend to pick up dust from storage.
Kinda basic stuff I guess, but it seems to help.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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We've found that a tack cloth is great to pick up the dust. In addition to wiping the vinyl, printer and table we wipe off the foil cassette. The front edges that the vinyl runs past can be a source of defects. Sometimes an odd spot color sits around and gathers dust on it's plastic case. I don't know where all the dust comes from, we clean the shop every few years.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1703 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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