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At this time, the post is 92 entries long. Wow. Lots of twists and turns and very, very interesting.
I’ve been thinking about this post, along with the one on if you are “street” or “book” educated. Along with this, we see new folks considering going full time or just starting out and need some basic info.
I started working when I was 12 years old. I worked in a meat plant. One of the owners was a (I thought) grouchy old guy that had an 8th grade education (from Lane Tech, Chicago) but the guy grew up working the city and had a great gift for math. Anyway, this guy showed me a few things that stick in the back of my mind.
One of my jobs was to grind meat, take it in a big tub across the room to a mixer and then grind it again. In my travel from one place to another I would occasionally drop an ounce or two or less of meat from a 100 lb. tub. One day he pulled me aside, grabbed the microscopic piece of ground beef from the floor and threw it on the scale. He made me figure out how much that meat was worth, and then explained how many tubs of meat he expected me to carry each day… then figure out how much money I would waste by dropping it on the floor. Hey, it was not much but it could add up over time. The point was to be careful to not waste it. Be aware of your costs and your profits would take care of themselves.
We all have competition in the sign business. We all have those jobs that we lose to the under bidders. How many car dealerships are in your town? How many mechanics, building contractors, electricians, plumbers, Doctors, Dentists, gas stations, bars……..?
I’m sure that they all have the same problem with the “other guys”. Some will take shortcuts, use inferior materials – some might have a lower overhead or have built their business based on high volume. Perhaps some have achieved a level of efficiency that allows them to complete a task in half of the time with half of the steps while maintaining the same level of quality. You have to consider these things.
Getting ticked off about it is ok but shake it off. Newbies to this site are nowhere near the level of some that have been in the business a while.
I think that Jon Aston’s words are something that everyone should consider. Make a plan… a smart plan. Make it a “living” plan… one that can be changed or amended as you develop your skill and style. It all comes down to this is a business just like any other business. You know your capabilities and charge accordingly. Go out and find OTHER ways to market what you already do. Talking things over with fellow business people in your area is a great way to find a few things out. Geez… these people come to you for work everyday, it should be easy.
Side step: Back to skill levels. I pinstripe and consider myself pretty good at it. When I first tried this art form, I SUCKED. Just like most of the rest of you starting out. So, I practiced and got better. I went to a Letterheads meet in Canonsburg, PA. and ran into Bob Bond for the second time. I could not believe this guy. He literally walked from one end of the car to the other pulling a line that was so straight I almost peed myself. Then… he went back and pulled a secondary line right next to it without a flaw. All the while he was bullshi**ing with the crowd and I said to myself “I have to learn how to do better.”
Anyway, if a new guy takes one hour to stripe a car and an experienced guy takes 10 minutes to stripe a car and they both charge a hundred bucks…you get the idea.
These franchise places can be really good if they want and some are. Much of the hard knocks of marketing and developing a business plan have already been hammered out. Those of us that are learning along the way feel burned by their (seemingly) instant success. This is not always the case as most of us know. Overhead at one of these places is HIGH and it takes someone on the ball to make it work… if it is going to work at all. All of US that are still learning can help ourselves by developing our skills, learning some better business skills, how to say “no” and when to say “I’m not as good as that guy but maybe I could be with a little work.”
Look around this site. Some of these people are ungodly awesome in their skills. Some of us are kind of weak in some design areas. This is the way it goes.
Anyway, I ranted and raved and what is the point? I think that competition is healthy and if you continue to be on the ball and have at least some positive goal in mind, well, these under bidding folks will not be as bothersome. Succeed.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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I think you summed the whole issue up beautifully. Using a new topic to do it also saved me about 5 minutes of downloading on my (get this) 26k modem that does about 13K through the ancient phone lines that come into my home.
My first gig was at fifteen years old, in a chicken processing plant. I bet we could share some great meat stories with the Letterville gang, over dinner (Hey! Where's the vommity emoticon?).
Have great day everyone!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Good post Jeff, cept I see one flaw, in regards to the part about both the old guy and the new guy striping a car for a hundred bucks. Yea that's fine, but in reality the new guy will likely charge $40 then another new guy will come along and charge $30 and then somebody else will come along and charge $20. The same can go for any niche market. Been there, done that Let's use the car striping for example. I've been persuing that for a few months now as my former market, the 18 wheelers is dead in the water I've picked up a few dealers and am working on getting some more. By the end of the summer I will have approached ALL the dealers in the area. I'm striping them for a fair price, fair to them fair to me and in line with MOST of the guys around the country. Let's just say I do these for a few years, then somebody comes along and offers to do them for 1/3 of what I'm getting. Where does that leave me? I've already solicited all the dealers in town, I can't lower my prices and make any money and even if I could, how would the dealers take that, more than likely they would feel I was ripping them off for two years and would toss me in favor of the new guy anyway. I stareted to chime in on Cheryl's post , but it's way to obvious that some folks just never have had the rug yanked out from under them, if they had there wouldn't be all that condescension and smugness from some. I know I'm coming across as kind of negative but it's reality in a lot of cases. Timi said something on Cheryl's post about how it's not how you get knocked down but how you get back up, hell I've gotten back up off the mat more times than Danny "Little Red" Lopez
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Hey George, I get your point very well. It's one of those things that can make you wonder. I guess that maybe there are other ways to look at this, considering that there WILL be those people that will always undercut you.
Many customers DO NOT appreciate the fact that you use quality materials, paints, brushes, thinners, reducers, brush oil, environmental conditions and such to achieve your highest quality of work. These guys look for CHEAP and we don't need 'em. There's a big market out there for CHEAP and if we decide to serve them we can. I think that it looks a lot better if I tell a customer that I could do it for less with less of a design and less quality materials and you expect it to last for LESS years. If they understand the differences then I leave it up to them to make a decision and don't feel so bad when they have to come back in 3 years as apposed to 7 or 10 or 20. I don't feel like I'm cheating anyone when this happens. It's the guy that charges full and gives half that bothers me.
How much work does one guy need? All of the work? Not me. I like to pick as many jobs as I can. If I don't offer a particular service, I hope that I can recommend someone that does... someone I trust to have a high standard.
I get guys in here looking for 18" x 24" coroplast FOR SALE signs. I tell them that they can get those at Menards or Home Depot. When they want something special, come back to me.
I think that there will always be those "other guys" in any business. Back in my Butchering daze, there were meat plants in most every town. I worked for one place for 9 years and another for 13. In that business we all knew one another and shared a respect similar to what I see in here. We did not always agree but we accepted each other. The one thing we all had in common was this particular group of people that just never seemed to be satisfied no matter where they went. They would make the rounds from plant to plant.
I see the same thing here in the sign business. I think that if we promote ourselves as positive, continue to learn and to try to educate our customer...well, I think that the work will come.
Hey, I have days when I wonder why the phone won't ring or if it ever will again! Running scared that business will dry up is not fun. That's why (I think) we should have a few back up plans or services available. I plan to survive, not get rich quick, improve my skills and have fun.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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Morning Jeffrey. You have written some very wise words. I am the type who remembers the old days where you put alot of time and effort into your signs. The kind of person who remembers when somebody said they would pay you tomorrow...they were back to pay you 'tomorrow'. Those days are gone. Deposit or no sign is now the name of the game. I think back to knowing every other sign business in town and helping each other out. Tips and tricks were traded freely as were paint and MDO. Look around. Does it seem like things are made cheaper than ever and last a much shorter amount of time? I still like the older cars. And yep even the older homes where they were actually made out of wood. Call me stubborn or whatever you want. Yes I am certain when McDonalds popped into town you can bet your bippy many great little mom and pop restaurants were put out of business. They say change is good. But is it always? I know there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, other than 'shake it off' or go to new levels of marketing etc. The other day I decided to try a cheap brand of spray paint (dumb move) I had to take back 3 cans that either just wouldn't spray or they clogged up after 5 minutes. A couple weeks ago I bought a great sweater (so I thought) at an expensive dept. store. The whole thing now is covered with fuzz balls. I believed it was a great buy as it was bought at a great store. What was that you said the other day BOB...'everything is crap now, even the good stuff is crap.' or something to that effect. Yep the world is confused. In a way it is true. There is so much crap, why not just buy the cheap stuff?? This is the way many people think. I am just as guilty. I am sure some franchises run their businesses well and put out tasteful work. But Sheesh. Drive down the road and at a distance all you see is the word NOW at one sign franchise. NOW what? NOW get your signs you can't read from a distance?? Cheap is NOW the name of the game? Fast signs.....sure. But nice looking? I dunno. If you are going to do signs for a living at least make your own sign legible!! Maybe one day we will achieve a balance. Where effort is put into the design at a very reasonable price. Or maybe it will continue to get worse before it gets better. Or maybe if you can't beat 'em.....join 'em. That's it! Cheryl's Cheap Sign Co. We do 'em fast for mere pennies! We won't 'stick it to you' with high prices OR quality.
Nah....I am much much too stubborn. Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Actually the " these guys look for cheap " statement is only 10% correct in my line of work. Perfection is what most customers of striping wants, dealerships included. Of course there are few who look for price, but the majority want quality. I am the newest pinstriper in southern Oregon, only been here 6 years. Usually it takes me way less then 6 months to get totally recognized for my style and quality but this place has me baffled. My prices for regular customers are high starting at $200. compared to dealership work and for dealerships, the average is $65 per vehicle with a 5 vehicle minimum. Most all my work comes from another seeing my logo and hunting me out but the dealerships who trade with one another ask for me! I've been asked to stripe for dealerships all over this country, and at one time or another have done that, but as my health withers and my age wanders, I really don't have the strenth to jump up at 5am to catch a plane, plus you know what travel is like these days!
As long as I live, quality, design and color will be #1 and price secondary. The dealerships want quality and thats a fact. If you don't believe it, try striping for a quality car dealership giving little talent and see where it gets you. Not everyone wants a wavy line or a non comformant color added to their 40 grand vehicle and the dealerships job is to sell vehicles and make money with as little work as possible.
Someone better realize that pinstriping and signmaking is totally different in many ways and just because another feels they can wield a brush, it doesn't make them a pinstriper.
How many pinstripers do you think actually do straight-line work for a living ? If it were so easy you would all be stripers......
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Know why the "old timers" are so grumpy? Cuz the bruises hadn't healed from the last time they got knocked on their butts! And have'n a sore butt is a enough to make anyone grumpy.
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Again I cant explain how great this site is I read all of your comments and just say "WOW" once and every while. I am young and have alot to learn about, but i know what i love to do, I have been drawwing and dipping and dabbing in all aspects of art since i was little, and i am just very glad to know that the service i want to give to my customers is in the aspects of older and more experienced artist such as yourselfs. About 3 wks ago i was talking to a local shop in the next town about equipment and ideas about the business. And when I told him of the services I am goin to provide, he got very rude and told me the and i quote " the artsy-fartsy stuff is for a small percentage of people and i need to look into book publishing " He said the main protion of customers want simple signs that that get the point out!! and told me to leave. I came home discouraged and told my wife that lil dounts are coming on, her advice is that he could've been trowing me off. Well when i came on here and read all i could, I am ready 150% to open up shop. I have about less than 5 yrs of experience of the business aspect and that is from looking over other people shoulders. and i dont have much of a school smarts (thank God my wife is a college graduate) but i have what i call is raw talent and i learn as i go and it helps out to read from guys and ladies that have been doing this for over 30yrs and more. with all that said and i keep rambling, just want to let you know, even with a such big gap in yrs of experience and age, the generation of mine and the ones to come, believe in the same beliefs you have and have started your business on is still here and will be around for awhile. I wouldnt mind to lend supplies or help any time and at the end of the day share a beer with any one
-------------------- Frank Weidman Waukegan, Il. Posts: 71 | From: Waukegan, Il. | Registered: May 2002
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The guys still reading and replying to the original post are trying to make it to 200!!
Are we gonna let them beat us?
OK - so I've lost my mind...
14!!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Cheryl, hang in there. Jeff, it's obvious you are a wise person.
I think many people could benifit from sitting down and making sure they understand the difference between price and value ( Do I sound like a car sales man yet? lol)
The fast food metaphor came up, so I'll use that.
I'm sure everyone here has a favorite restaurant they dine at on occasion. Do you think these fine dining establishments try to compete with the local drive through taco places? Not a chance. If someone wants quality food, and not a fast food taco they know where to go. Sure you pay more for fine dining, but you get far more out of it. Atmosphere, a friendly server attending to your wants and needs, ( a happy spouse.. haha ) and finally a well prepared meal that saved you sweating in your own kitchen for the evening. In most cases I'd call that a better value.
The ball is now in your court to better educate your customers and show them why you don't have a "$.99 menu".
One unfortunate driving force in todays advertising is price. It is true that many people shop on price alone, but believe me, there are still plenty of people around that still desire quality, and are smart enough to understand that spending a little more now will actually save them money in the future. When brand X builds them a very poor sign for pennies, they will more than likely be very upset when a few years later the sign didn't hold up.
My father has taught me several things ( once I realized I didn't know it all and started listening to him! haha) The most important thing he taught me was to sell your services or product based on quality, and not on price alone. Once you enter into the "cheeper is better" bidding war, there is far too great of a chance of the bottom falling out from under you. Cutting costs sounds like good business in conception, but often the result is sub-standard product or service.
It still amazes me to watch succesful businesses go down because they began to concentrate too much on "cutting cost" and lost sight of what truly made them a profit in the first place, good products.
Roger has always worked hard to ensure that product quality remained our number one goal. Had he attempted to cut corners, or fallen into the under cutting price trap, we would have never made it, and would not produce the quality products many of you use to create quality signs. Sure we have competitors, and sure some of them may be priced cheaper, but we sleep well at night knowing we put out quality.
The very signs everyone here produces are for the purpose of keeping people informed. Signs help tell people what businesses are, where they are, when they are open, what they do, etc.... Instead of entering into a price war, concentrating on costs so much that quality suffers, or worrying about what "Brand X" is doing, and for how much, use your skills and tools to show your customers why you are the better value. Sure you will lose a few jobs to Brand X based soley on price, but often those are the jobs that can turn into nightmares because of the "cheep" mentality of the customer you are doing the work for.
Just remember that most people have no idea what cast vinyl, MDO, Aluminum guage, or any sign related material is when they come to you for work. They just want to see a logo and letters on some sort of sign. YOU have to sell them on your products value, and not price.
If you concentrate on this , you'll be busy, happy, and smiling much more.
[ May 28, 2002, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Bailey ]
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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There are people out there who ask for a discount on every purchase they make. It has nothing to do with your price. They have learned that you can get discounts just by asking. An example of that - a friend and I were in a bakery restaurant. As we left, I kiddingly suggested he should take his spouse a pie. He liked the idea and ordered a pie. Then I told the cashier that he should deduct my selling commission from the price of the pie. He took $1.50 off the price of the pie.
And then there is a class of person who will lie to you about the price he is getting elsewhere to get you to drop your price. Had a fellow offer me his work at the "Sign A Rama price" - way lower than mine. Turned him down. Knew from previous experience that he was less than honest. The next day I got a call from a single mom working out of her home, asking if I would give her the logos for the truck. So much for the "Sign A Rama" price.
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Personally I don't worry about price shoppers or other businesses that can do stuff cheaper than me... LET EM!
I guess I do have a small advantage..my overhead is slight, I intend to retire (maybe semi-retire)in a couple of years, and MOST important....I would rather lay on the couch and drink a beer or sit out in the sun and get a tan or go golfing or just about ANYTHING else...Rather than work for nothing!
Just today I got a call from a very nice lady asking about the cost of making "some of those corrugated plastic signs" for an upcoming village wide yard sale. I told her whgat the coroplast would cost and I told her what the APPROXIMATE cost for the lettering would be. She thought the price was OK but it was just too high for the budget. I then suggested that I could sell her the coroplast and she could use multicoloured magic markers and make the signs herself.
She was ecstatic at the thoughts of the bargain she had suddenly found!
I will pick up the sheet of coroplast next time I am at the suppliers, I'll mark it up 100%, that will pay for my gas for the trip I was going to make anyway and EVERYONE is happy!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah..I also offered to cut the sheet of coroplast in half for her for free!!!! That REALLY sealed the deal!!!!!!!!
I could have spent a long time trying to convince her of the benefit of having a professionally manufactured sign, I could have spent several hours moaning about the loss of a potential job, but I just made a couple of bux and only spent a couple of minutes doing it!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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That's it I'm putting my prices up by 50% (Just kidding - I wouldn't dare)
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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ON PRICING: VonDutch had a GREAT way of handling the price complainers. He'd RAISE the price a noth everytime the customer made a negative comment on the price. It usually took 3 increases before the customer would "get it".......and the new price didn't come down! I'd like to see somebody try THAT ONE and get away with it!
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You guys type alot... I dont know what you guys are bitchin about cuz I am too lazy to read all that. Too bad we can't get you guys that excited about signmaking . Anybody wanna write me a 12 paragraph paper on smalts or the use of panels and florishes?
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Hey Cap'n: You'll have to figure the smalts yourself like we did years ago.As for panels and flourishes...2 words..MIKE JACKSON! We're all too busy typing on the BB and drinkin' beer to mess with sign crap!
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And have'n a sore butt is a enough to make anyone grumpy.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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