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Jon your absolutly right and that is what I get for being on the internet at 1 and 2 in the morning, I get the duhhhhhhh! syndrome. Anyways I have a Yamaha DX21 and it a good keyboard too.Roland made the famous Jupiter and JX series of analog synths. Anyways their pedals rule. I have an old phaser pedal that is lime green from about '83 or so and it has been dropped, a cat pee'ed on it, I have had a tantrum or two and thorwn it and a few batteries have corroded to death in it but it still works like new.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Scot Moyer is on to something. Home depot in the Los Angeles area started hiring students from Los Angeles Trade Technical College to run their in house sign shop. A few of these guys are freinds of mine and they are old fashion sign painters. About 5 to 10 stores now have a all hand lettered signs and they look fantastic. I think upper management has noticed the difference. One friend in particular can't keep up with the in house stuff and the snapped up work from the contractors walking down the isles.
-------------------- Fernando Ocampo Percell Signs Petaluma, CA Posts: 26 | From: petaluma,california,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hey Fernando How ya doing?! Now THAT makes me smile about Home Depot. Hope it catches on here! Maybe there is hope after all. And Stephen Bolin thank you for posting. Taking pride in our work is the most important thing. I haven't seen any 'American Sign Shops' around my area. But best of luck to you. Thanks again for posting.
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let me throw in my 2 cents and if i have any change left over I wil throw in a xtra 3 to make it a even nickel. Roland, Gerber, Hand brush, Krylon spray paint, or even Crayola crayon. The materail and supplies don't do the work, it's the person who uses them, and the customer will pay for what they want. I read earlier that some people wont touch a project if it is not worth thier time and money, that is your standards and that is good. But thier is others that will take because it is $$$. The main thing tho, is that As a artist it is your talent that counts the most.
-------------------- Frank Weidman Waukegan, Il. Posts: 71 | From: Waukegan, Il. | Registered: May 2002
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jon....i did a number of years in drug rehab(both sides, patient and counselor)and we learned a lot about "RATIONALZATION":and for us(as counselors)there came a point in all that we did to help people, that the way they RATIONALIZED, was the only thing holding them back from "total" recovery. and i understand....if i spent a large amount of money for something(drugs,women, wine, or equip)...i will RATIONALIZE it to be the most intelligent thing ive ever done, defend that decision with fervor. i was an outside salesman for NAPA for quite a few years, this was before they had MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKERS. we had product knowledge meetings and the company reps would sit us down buy us a big steak dinner, feed us all the booze we wanted and filled our heads with PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE and that there was no better products out there.........so my point being some of us RATIONALIZE what we do as the best thing for us..(reality based) and those who are prone to belive what they are told is the best thing for them(programed behavior)and to grab a line from the serenity prayer..."the wisdom to know the differance." some of us are weller !!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Now wait a sec Cheryl. You just said Home Depot making signs brings a smile to your face. Your confusing me? Hasn't Home Deopt price cut the little guys and put most of them out of business? Don't you think that's their aim with signs now? If you don't, you better take a better look. So what if they have Michelangelo painting the signs. Is your beef the way the signs look or what they charge for them? cause I can guarantee their gonna charge less than you. Sounds pretty smart of them to me. Maybe they get the talented artists in there to paint signs. They charge next to nothing for the work....heck, even lose money on the signs. But guess what?, they just sold that same contractor all his supplies for the day. Grocery stores use this practice on items all the time. I think they call them "loss leaders" or something like that.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce, I think they are talking about HD using handpainted signs in there own store, not selling them. At least the "hand painted" look is not dead within the big box franchises. When they run their own sign shops they will probably sell vinyl, so folks like Cheryl & O.P. and so many others here will still have that advantage. I use & profit from the Edge & I hope the big Orange that just moved up the street doesn't get into that game. BTW Joe, I got a Roland PNC 1050 that built up this business for years. It still runs like a tank, but when I tried out a Color Camm, it sucked! Affordable plotters that make money are great, but an if it takes 20K to get a good digital printing system, so what if it's buying me a house, new wheels, & the freedom to say Aloha now so I can clock out at 10:30 am & go home & set up for a memorial day BBQ.
[ May 27, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
It still comes down to how you run your business, not the other guy.
So what if some schmuck in his garage is selling $10 signs?
So what if some franchise is lowballin' everyone to get into the game.. isn't that what everyone else did in the beginning to get their feet wet and build a customer base? Or did everyone here start from day one charging premiums for 4x8's even though you didnt have the skills? Maybe you apprenticed at a shop for a while and siphoned their customers to get yourself started?
If your business goes down the toilet, who's fault is that? the franchise's? the goofball in his garage?
Neither, it's YOUR fault because YOU got LAZY and decided everyone is gonna flock to your door just because you have a business license and lettering on your truck door.
You didnt get off your tail and promote your business, or you ceased to learn something new and cool that nobody else in town does but everybody has just got to have. You just sit back on your laurels and expect the business to come your way when other companies are offering customers incentives to utilize their services.
This isnt directed at anyone in particular, it's more for anyone that needs to feel sorry for themselves because "that damn sign franchise (or garage-based lowballer) has priced me right out of business".
I'm just gettin a little tired of people pinning their failure on some other business and their practices. I just cant feel any sympathy for any business owner that can't venture out and find new ways to bring in profits.. not when I've only been in business for 3 years and have gone from whoring out riceboy decals with my STIKA cutter to being the TOP source for custom jetski graphics on the planet. I know I'm on top because my customers tell me so, and my potential buyers all say the same thing: "Man, you've got the coolest designs around! I definitely wanna buy my graphics from you!"
Anyway... You have to put your skills into demand.. offer something irresistable to your customers.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Blah, Blah, Blah..... who cares! lets just all make good signs and not worry about the other guy.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Was all that talk about RATIONALIZATION aimed at me? Seems to me that you are the guy doing all of the RATIONALIZATION.
What did "they" teach you about PROJECTION?
In any case, you won't convince me of your point of view any more than I seem to be able to convince you of mine...so we'll have to agree to disagree if we want to remain friends.
Don't make me open up a can-o-whoopass on you, now.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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something that has been missed here that I have felt all along in the sign traid not only doing good designs useing good matterals and enjoy what your doing from hand lettering to vinyl to dig.printing and charging a fair price..it is key to give good CUSTOMER SERVICE .....say what you do...and then do what you say for your customers. be honest and friendly develop a repore with them.Let them feel that your working for them and not just taking there money, I feel that will keep bring them back more than anything. sure there will allways be the cheapy shoppers the low ballers working out there homes and the big boys trying to get into the act.Face it your never going to gat all the jobs that come your way. good compatition has allways made me work harder and has been the main driving force to become better at what I choose to do for a living produce a good product at a price were you can make a good living wage and develop good customer service...and it wont matter what the other guy is doing
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I stand corrected. I didn't realize that Home Depot was using these people to make their own signs.
Stephen, I think that Home Depot could very well one day be willing to lose money on signs in order to get the other business. I myself couldn't, but they could. I'm willin to bet that they already are losing money on some loss leaders in order to get you in the store. You can almost bet that they'll have a guy makin signs right next to that guy cuttin keys.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey please Home Depot come take some of the pressure off----too many price shoppers round here for me - I'm too busy to talk to them - just be sure to have plenty of white coroplast & cheep red vinyl - maybe stock some pre-cut 12x24 magnetic material- that's where that market is-----------Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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hey jon..just cause you look like mr.me-aggie........i taught him all he knows..........HI-YA....CHI-HI...AW SO....heheheheheheheheheheh
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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It's always interesting to get another point of view. Last week I had a call from a local doofus (I'll call him Joe), who owns an RV/trailer/marine supply place. I've done some work for Joe - traded a sign for the cap on my pickup - but hadn't heard from him in a couple of years (not that I really minded). He called about some vinyl for a boat customer; in the conversation he said he'd been going to a new shop in town, but that this new shop "forgot where he came from" and had doubled his prices in the past few months. I wisely refrained from commenting that the new guy had obviously decided to make a living instead of buying work from nitwits like him, and mentally filed his comment for future reference.
Fast forward a week. I was stuck for some vinyl that "brown" managed to lose in the 40-minute drive from my supplier in East Providence, so I went to see the "new guy" that "Joe" had mentioned. We'd heard of each other, of course - it's a small town - but hadn't actually met. In the course of a half-hour friendly conversation, (during which he gave me the 6 ft of vinyl I needed and refused to let me pay for it) I mentioned that I'd heard complaints about how expensive he'd become. He grinned ear-to-ear. "Good. F#^% 'em. I'm sick of guys riding in here in brand-new 35k Dodge Ram pickups and bustin' balls about what I charge." His point was that no matter how low his prices were, SOME CUSTOMERS STILL COMPLAINED, or whined, or wanted to haggle. I left, feeling like I'd learned something valuable, besides knowing I have a competitor who has enough sense not to give work away. He's primarily a vehicle shop - doesn't do many signs - whereas I do maybe a dozen trucks a year, so it's not like we are going to fight over the same work. But at the same time we can stay in touch, warn each other about deadbeat customers, and not get played off on one another. That in itself is a lot more valuable than worrying about his prices, or whether he's going to "steal" all my work, or any number of other paranoid obsessions that have nothing to do with anything.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Our local Beer Distributer has been doing free banners and small graphics to all his retailers and now he's going after the car clubs and race tracks. [/QB]
Granted, beer distributors have been doing this for years. We simply advanced past the age of the magic marker. So, instead of sloppy prices on a pre-printed counter card, we load a template (designed by the brewer), chance the prices and wording, and print - "Quantity With Quality".
Sign shops, at least in our area, were never supplying grocery stores, convenience stores, or bars with static clings, table tents, small banners, or counter cards. Even by cranking out hundreds to thousands of them a week, I have not effected my local sign shops.
And yes, I do take pride in what I do; especially when I take business away from a rival distributor.
I recall one grocery store who had a "Kegs to Go" banner; a vinyl and Edge logo on chloroplast abomination. I looked at the space I had available and designed a 15'x18' banner (six 3'x15' vertical banners hung side by side...gotta love PowerClip). The store went from selling 3-4 kegs a week, to selling over 40 a week. That one still makes me smile.
posted
Daniel,...I don't want to pop yer bubble there,...but there aren't many sign shops in the triad that can compete with free,...much less give away 6 3'x15' banners to a possible client.I know it's your job but the small mom and pop sign shop hasn't supplied these items in the past because the client was to cheap to pay a reasonable price.If I were the beverage distributor I would do the same thing as you but I'm not and I can't compete with free, and I do signage for several bars here in town.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:...I do signage for several bars here in town.[/QB]
I suppose I should have clarified that the majority of the types of signage we produce are temporary; hanging a few weeks at the most. For the more permanent placements, we settle for clocks, neons, and the like. When a promotion ends in a grocery store, the banners get trashed. When the store wants to "clean up" its look, the signs get trashed. When the competition gets overzealous, the signs get trashed.
Mind you, I'm one of those newfangled graphic artists. I have been using CorelDRAW since version 3, use both a Mac and a PC, and enjoy dabbling with website creation and interactive 3D graphics. Given my own two hands, I cannot draw a circle or a straight line. I have more than a great deal of respect for artists who can render the human form, be it a cartoon or realistic; I need Poser for that. A beach scene drawn freehand? I'd need Bryce. And lets not even get started, about the legibility of my handwriting.
If you have ever lost a sale, because the beer guy can make a banner for free, then I apologize. The overlap was unintentional. Our sales force is rewarded, for the signs they get placed in an account. But we do have our limitations. You'll never see foam letters or painted artwork coming out my sign shop. If it can't be designed in Corel and printed on an ENCAD, Summa cutter, or color laser, then I simply don't play.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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We had a beer distributor in town that we supplied banners to for years. We did 24+ banners a year for them. They supplied the preprinted banners and we hand lettered them or vinyled them, whatever the case may be.
They got bought out by a bigger distributor and started an in-house sign departmemt. They bought the latest and greatest equipment with absolutely no clue how to use it.
Guess who they called to come and "just give them the basics..."? Guess what I said.... LOL!
I can't and will not compete with free. If I am going to lose money, I'll go hit 18 holes and smile about it. A bad day at a golf beats a good day working for nothing.
Have a great one!
[ May 28, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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DO I SEE A '200' IN OUR FUTURE? -------------------------------------------------- I HAD A LADY THE OTHER DAY CALLING FOR A PRICE ON A "TEMPORARY A-FRAME". I TOLD HER....WE'RE A DONUT SHOP NOW!......LAST WEEK WE WERE A SIGN SHOP, AND IF THE DONUTS DON'T WORK OUT, NEXT WEEK WE'LL BE A LAUNDROMAT!
posted
Just posting this so we can head for the 200 mark. Oh by the way, franchises can kiss my #$$!!!!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Hey you'sa guys gotta help me, I only gotta 28-k. download speed. It'sa gonna take me a week to get this post up to 200 by myself. Ha!Ha!Ha! just kidding.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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i think i will see if homr depot wants to buy all my stuff and give me a job. maybe they will give me insurance and all the other benifits.
i have experience and maybe they will send me around to train the other people. who do i contact.
this should get this over 200. haha
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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From what i hear from friends thet work at Home Depot....It is a good place to work! Around here, they hire people that are experienced in the trade, that their department services, so that customers can get proper advice. Unlike WallMart and Lowe's, where the clerk can lead you to the stuff you need, but doesn't know anything about them!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A guy who works for one of my suppliers also works at the Big Orange nights. I asked him why there are never enough employees there to get one to find an item (even if they know nothing about it)He said they are ready and willing to hire a few dozen people (I've seen the "now hiring" banner) but no one who applies can pass the drug test! I guess that says something about the cross section of humanity around here thats looking for that type of job. From what I've seen of the sign-maker types around here, (myself excluded-of course ) I've got nothing to worry about them ever staffing anyone for that job description.
posted
heres a positive view of the franchaise shops. When I started our sign biz in '89 the Signs Now and Fast Signs had the nicest shops around the Grand Rapids area. They were charging fair and more important...consistant pricing. I was a car wash operator who got tired of buying signs from very talented, but very slow artistic types (that is slow in the production sense...not intellectually) We've tried to emulate the professional business appearance and policies the successful franchaises practiced. After reading virtually every Sign of the Times Vinyl Surveys over the years, I am not surprised to see that they typically are the gross$ leaders. Granted they kick back a percentage to the home office...but you cant argue with success. Lo-ball pricing sucks...I can honestly say I've seen most of this coming from the homebased independent. BTW I dont think many franchaise guys hang around (lurk) this site...but think they could learn and contribute a lot.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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Hey Cheryl- It happens to the best of us. Why dontcha hog-tie the franchise owner, UPS him/her to Mars, and we'll barbeque them? You know, the secret's in the sauce.... love- JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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) I've got nothing to worry about them ever staffing anyone for that job description.
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