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Cheryl, I could share a few beers with you...just saw a post on another Bill Board showing a picture of a FASTSIGNS shop that had installed screen printing equipment and was offering quick turn around on screen printed signs and banners. It never ends! Our local Beer Distributer has been doing free banners and small graphics to all his retailers and now he's going after the car clubs and race tracks. It's time to break out the hard stuff cus the beer just ain't maken it! Robin
-------------------- Robin Sharrard Sharrard Graphics & Sign Fallon, Nevada rds@phonewave.net "Proud $$$ Supporter" Posts: 282 | From: Fallon, Nevda, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I'm starting to get this feeling that there is probably alot of sign franchises that lurk around here. God forbid, some of them may even charge the appropriate amount of $$ for their work....and better yet, may even have some design skill. But, unfortunately they will probably never be able to speak up out of fear that they will get completely flamed.
No offense intended, but it is kind of a shame.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce you could possibly be correct. However if you are going to be in the game of signs...then play fair. Don't send out work that looks like every other job. Don't underbid every job. I am sure there are sign franchises that do nice work. I just haven't met any yet. If they are out there......post your work and stand up for yourselves. Be proud of what you do!
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I know plenty of very nice and very capable Franchise owners in Canada. I have no idea if any of them "lurk" here or not, but I would like to see them speak up if they do.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Hello from the new guy, just wanting to add something real quick here. I have been designing for about a year now seriously and my work is great because I love what I do. Now when the customers see the design they love it, but (there is always a (_!_) somewhere) The one shop I was going thru was a get rich and cut corners guy (my only mentor), (good thing I know value) I learned so much from his mistakes that I know that the good majority of customers want craftmanship and will pay for what it is worth. Again I just want to say also that i really love this place and i have learned alot just reading from you all and absorbing so much knowledge. Maybe one night the lil green guys will come and vaporise the franchises and take the barber back to their planet. (<>(<>(<> .. <>)<>)<>)
-------------------- Frank Weidman Waukegan, Il. Posts: 71 | From: Waukegan, Il. | Registered: May 2002
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Fastsigns and other franchise shops should be the least of our worries, I heard a rumor that the biggest orange home center with 1300 stores is going to sell signs and truck lettering in their stores they are going to start a pilot program by the end of 2002 and hope to have all their stores up and running by 2005 of course they will have the best of everything equipment wise fantastic marketing and 90% of their customers [and ours] will walk thru their doors everyday. I think the mom & pop shop days are over.
-------------------- Scott Moyer Canadensis, Pennsylvania 570-595-0310 Posts: 111 | From: Canadensis PA. USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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Scott - don't loose any sleep over that big orange store putting us all out of business. Mom and Pop will continue to do well - they just won't have to deal with all the cheapskates.
Sam's Clubs tried to same thing with magnetic signs and bannners and we are all still in business.
Sure, they will get some folks to buy their signs, but just because they have the latest technical gizmos they stil won't have what the folks here have inside their brains. Remember, computers can't think and they can't make signs. It takes a person to tell them what to do.
Over the past 40 plus years I have heard every kind of wolf cry that is possible and yet, here I am, still in business, doing more work then ever, and more than doubling last years gross sales for the first four months of the year....and doing less signs.
In my estimation, the only advantage that we have over those whom you have described is the ability to design. As Glenn says, "design is the difference"...or whatever it is that he says. If you try to compete on price you will loose every time, but compete on design and you have the upper hand at every turn.
The sky isn't falling.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Even if the big orange monster gets into the game...it's apples and oranges, if even that close.
It's like the food business. You can go to McDonald's or another one of these fast food places or you can go out for a nice meal. You're not going to pay $4.69 for a nice meal in a restaurant with a tablecloth but you get what you pay for.
It's the same thing with signs. Let the yahoos who are looking for another "red helvetica on a white background" go to the franchises. Yes, I know that there are bills to be paid and the franchises are taking money out of your pocket but there really are clients out there who know the difference and are willing to pay for a decent quality product.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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I think that if the big O gets into the biz, it'll hurt the franchise shops more than it'll hurt us "mom'n'pop" shops. They will have to draw from the same labor pool as the franchise shops for one thing. And, if the service isn't there, neither will the customers no matter what the price.
In the meantime, something that many "Mom'n'Pop" shops will have to do is diversify. And since they can't do everything, it will be important to be able to farm some jobs out. It might be sandblasted signs or pens'n'pencils, but it will help level out the economic rollercoaster ride many shops experience.
Look ahead, learn, anticipate, plan and grow.
[ May 25, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
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Some see the glass half full while others see it half empty. Something witty should probably follow that but I’ll just ask you to read the tag line below the name and call it a day.
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've considered myself to be a Letterhead since I attended my first meet back in 1985 and I try to get to a Letterhead or Walldog meet yearly, but I also chose to buy a sign franchise. The franchise bashing on this site gets a little annoying - obviously your cities & towns are much different than the city I live in. In my city it is the small one man shops that give the work away. Why would you worry about a franchise giving work away when in most cases their overhead expenses are much higher than yours and they'll be out of business sooner than the guy/gal operating out of their garage. I don't waste my time & energy worrying about them as I have a highly respected sign business that offers QUALITY, SERVICE & FAIR PRICING with sales that have increased yearly. I lose customers to pricing but they usually end up back because they don't get the QUALITY, & SERVICE and then they are willing to pay my FAIR PRICES. I've lost nothing if they don't come back, they are probably not someone I want to do work for. Maybe a few of you need to take a good look at your businesses & quit being so negative.
-------------------- Colleen Henderson Signs Now, Thunder Bay, ON signsnow@tbaytel.net Posts: 140 | From: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 1999
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I hope you'll understand some of the animosity independent shops have against franchise shops. What I am about to say is not directed at you personally in any way whatsoever.
Yes, there are some "good" franchise shops. A local American Sign Shops franchise and I are on good terms. Not so with our local SignsNow shop. Why? Because of the owner's attitude and business practices.
I've been told by several former employees that this owner sees us at the "enemy". They were instructed that if a customer came to them with one of our quotes, they were to do anything to get the business away from us. Our prices were automatically undercut by 10%.
I've had my fun with her too. When I knew that the customer was going to her for a quote, I would give that person a ridiculously low price just to see what would happen. I got a call a couple weeks ago from a auto parts business looking for quotes on doing 15 pickup trucks - two doors, the bed and the tailgate. I gave a price of $50 each. I did a follow up call a few days later. I was told that the SignsNow store beat my price.
Now, do I gripe that she undercut the price or that she is ruining the market that I spent better than 15 years trying to build up from a guy who still handletters truck doors for $35 a pair?
quote:Why would you worry about a franchise giving work away when in most cases their overhead expenses are much higher than yours and they'll be out of business sooner than the guy/gal operating out of their garage.
I don't worry about them. I worry about the market being ruined and about how much time and work it will take to repair the damage before the next franchise shop pops up only to start the cycle all over again.
Colleen thanks for joining in. But what exactly do you mean by 'FAIR PRICING'? Fair for who? Fair for you? Fair for the customer? Fair for the world? I don't mean to be a smart ass. But alot of us were in business many years before the sign franchises. Since all the SignsNOW, FastSigns, Signs by Tomorrow, SignsRus etc. have come around.. sign prices have dropped. Quality appears to have gone downhill. Cost of materials have gone up. When signs were handlettered each sign seemed to be a unique masterpiece. I made good money! Now pricing has gone all to hell. People think because the SpeedyramaRightNOW guys charge peanuts for their signs, all of us 'signpeople' should do the same. It gets very annoying. And I am not speaking about you, but just try going into a sign franchise! Talk about attitudes! Talk about not being friendly! The way I see it, they are people trying to earn a buck just like the rest of us, but at times they are very insecure and paranoid about the quality of their work as they 'sometimes' have zero design, art, or sign experience. So instead of working on the quality and higher pricing....they just keep lowering their prices to get the work. Sure...they are working their asses off. And I am sure some are making a ton of money. good! I just wish some would put more effort into their designs. Then they would realize the value of their work.
Maybe some franchise owners need to take a good look at the quality of signs they are putting out, then other sign designers wouldn't be so negative.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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We had a guy running an "Inovative Signs" shop here. He to set the bench mark so low it was almost a joke.. Once i got a call from a dude who wanted his Wells Cargo done up. Saw his quote from Inovative.. So. i bid the whole job at $90 bux. Knowing Inovative would bid less,, and he did.... I found out that lots of others were playing the same game.. He got lots of work. but no money.. Guess what? Inovative is now gone... HAHAHAAAHA!!!!
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Glenn is definetly right they do see us as the enemy,I still can't see all these corps getting into the sign world as a good thing,I know design is important and it doe's sell and keep good customers but this buisness is constintly being chipped away,I've been doing this a long time and it gets worse & worse my billboard buisness is completly wiped out lucky if I do two a year the trailer buisness is pretty much gone they got ther own cutter, and the big company's get their decals from large suppliers,still doing alot of wraps but they get boring,ten years ago the phone would ring 30 times a day now it's lucky if it rings 30 time per month,I used to laugh at people when they wanted me to paint their offices and homes now I've been taking on more and more paint jobs you know what it's very profitable no complaints they pick the colors and I paint it get done they pay me the hardest part is staying awake don't think I'll be doing signs too much longer maybe a couple of race cars, some wall work, but I think it's time to get out.
-------------------- Scott Moyer Canadensis, Pennsylvania 570-595-0310 Posts: 111 | From: Canadensis PA. USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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As much as I hate to say it The market place here has become saturated. The supply is much higher than the demand for any of the vinyl type signage the current technology can produce.The only people making true profits with vinyl signage that were there before technology found a place in our industry are the sign suppliers selling the vinyl.Sure there are folks out there making good money doing signs but not the kind of money that was the standard for the trade 15 years ago.Glad I still make my living with a brush here.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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THE TIMES THEY ARE A'CHANGIN'! IN MY LIFETIME THE MOST NOTABLE WAS THE CORNER GROCERY STORE,THE LOCAL DRUG STORE; 50 CENTS FOR A CENTER FIELD SEAT IN THE POLO GROUNDS FOR VA WORLD SERIES GAME; A NEW CAR FOR $1800.....IT'S ALL GONE PEOPLE.THE CUSTOMER BELIEVES THAT THE "GOOD SUFF" IS AS JUNKY AS THE "BAD STUFF", AND "ONE-STOP SHOPPING" RULES! THE LITTLE GUY HAS GOT TO GET CREATIVE BUSINESS-WISE.IT'S NOT RIGHT....IT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS!....AND CHERYL HAS RUN SMACK INTO IT HEAD-ON!
posted
Things are not so great for the Big Orange Homer..
We've now got about 50,000 population here in Havasu, AZ and a new Home Depot went up last fall..
I thought for sure all the mom and pop hardware stores in town would lose sales and have to close up, but guess what... After talking with them (I frequent their shops often and know em on first name basis) none of them are having any problems at all! It seems as though this town, while it enjoys having the HD open on weekends (cause the mom and pop places are closed Sat-Mon.) hates having to go there to pick up something quick, plus they cannot beat the prices the other shops in town can provide! There's also a stocking issue, when they run out of something it takes a few weeks for them to restock it, the mom and pop stores here have the connections to get what you need the next day!
So, dont fear the franchise! Utilize them to make YOUR business BETTER!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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iam with timi....the brush will alway make you a living.....i do both, vinly for the ballfield signs and cheepi quicky and do stuff from the mobile unit.....but i can swing a brush, make it look better then vinyl use more colors, get more detail...and make more money then if i had to use vinyl...only problem....it still has to DRY!!!!! HEHEHEHEHE. the SAMS here had an airbrush setup in it..lasted maybe 2 months.....also they have the order your magnetics...dont see a lot of activite...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey this "Pricing " deal is all just a game to me - down here in Olive Branch, (Fastest growing county in Miss.) I charge what the market will bear - just like in any other community in the U.S. If you have 'nuff customers you can pick & choose the work you want to do - today I chose to letter a new Dry-cleaners van, do a few coroplast store signs, hung 2 3x8 banners for a new market in Memphis, then went to visit Mom, played frisbee golf after that, 'nother words, sometimes you just have to turn away work if it is'nt worth your time..............Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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First, an aside... If Lotti wasn't Lotti (apart from being somebody else) she might be getting a complex by now. Si's slip was one thing, but I actually mistook her for Steve Shortreed the other day. Anyone who has met both of them would easily know the difference.
Let's look at the big picture... The problem that we have all been experiencing over the course of the past decade or so is that of an increasing overabundance of supply vs demand for signage. This started when Roland (if it wasn't Roland, someone else would have come along) entered the market with low-cost, "entry level" plotters...which essentially obliterated the market's existing barriers to entry.
Suddenly, anyone with a couple of thousand dollars and a garage could start a sign company...and they did, in large numbers. Some devoted themselves to actually learning about the trade (learned layout & design, for example) but most didn't. Without adding any real value, these companies began turning signage into a commodity - sold on price. I think we've finally seen the trough of this cycle. With leadership and vision, the sign business can renew and rebound...
Another digression... When the Gerber EDGE arrived on the scene, my colleagues and I thought we had the solution to this problem I have been describing...we were convinced that we had a bigger revolution on our hands than the original vinyl cutting plotter (signmaker IV...also brought to you by Gerber Scientific Products) . We're still scratching our heads as to why the EDGE really only every managed to be evolutionary.
Franchises are just fancy plotters... When you stop and think about it, franchises are really just plotters with varying degrees of value added...stuff like marketing is "thrown in", for example. Not unlike plotters, some franchises (not all, obviously) are "entry level" packages. "Good" Franchisees will (or already are) facing the same business cycles that the rest of you have been through over the course of the past several years. The good ones also face the "backlash" of "independents", determined to fight back. At the end of the day, we're all just doing the best we can to earn a living and send our kids to school...price wars are not conducive to achieving our goals, however.
Here's an alternative... Rather than drawing a line in the sand between us ("independents") and them ("franchisees"), I think a more productive tact would be to create and continue to build more inclusive alliances (such as through the Letterhead movement) devoted to "raising the bar".
Let's go Ghandi... Invite your worst and most fearsome competitors to come and check out Letterville. Maybe, just by "lurking" they will discover that there are better, more profitable ways to win business...for everyone's benefit (yours and theirs). It would also be arrogant to think that people like Colleen don't have a thing or two to teach the rest of us.
Surely this is a more valuable use of Letterville than some of the silly, non-productive feuding that goes on around here sometimes (and I don't mean this thread).
If you actually read this far, I will buy you a beer when we finally meet face to face...
[ May 26, 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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jon your too funny....roland(and others) sold plotters at "fair market value" because GREEDY GERBER was makin a killin sell theirs so overpriced...that somebody was gona do it! lincoln navigator or susuki sumari...both will do the same thing,and $25,000 seperates them. GERBER $100 A FONT, remember? the extra board(not included when you bought plotter)$400, a crapie sign program $4000 and told everybody nothing was as good as theirs...and corel fonts are crap, they dont cut as clean as gebers. well...it worked for a while...just like polititians.....people arent as dumb as the "suits" belive. we do search out better, faster, cheaper ways to do things.....i remember back in 93 i posted on this board i was cuttin from corle 3....and one of the GERBER GOTCHA people read me the riot act. because he was told what i was doing couldnt be done....by guess who. this point about supply and demand..is true...i see a lot more people jumpin in here from penna, now more then i have seen in the past. and here in pensacola, i havent seen a new sign shop open in couple of years. most here are workin form the house(as i do and my mobile unit). as for pricing when iam at someones shop, and i got the mobile sign shop, i never get haggled on price....becuse they can have there sign done HERE & NOW might be the reason. now they see the money iam saving them by being there rather then them have to leave to go to a shop somewhere else. your right that the business is changing. as for the edge....it has its place, same as the machine that GREGORY uses for the big printed graphics. iam doing more paint work....because i can make a detailed sign, at the same price and mostly way less then the only vinyl shop can. and i spend less time with paint(iam quick with a brush, and rivits and screws dont need any extra attention)and no bubbles!!!! i read one post here a guy is gona close up and become a interior painter...says hell make more money....i can do that and paint words and pictures ...and make more money.....i leave the door open on all types of jobs....but i will survive.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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About 4 years ago, 5 new sign shops opened within a 10 mile radius of here. Soon we started hearing that our prices were too high. Well most of those shops are long gone.
We like to get about 80% of the work we quote. If we start winning every quote I know my prices are too low. Also when we get too busy and I don't want to do a particular job we raise the price.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1701 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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I'm laughing with you. Where is Pensicola in relation to Orlando? The next time I'm at the ISA show, let's get together, get loaded, have a few larfs...then duke it out! I'll kick yer saggin' hide yer head in the sand butt all over town if you don't pass out before me.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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First off Jon..Joe doesn't drink..So maybe you could buy me the drinks!!!! And I will guarantee that I will still be standing when you fall off the bar stool!!!! LOL
Thanks for the e-mails of late Jon..much appreciated...Obviously this site DOES have a positive effect on all of our businesses.
Now for Joe...He MUST be REALLY old..I can remember 1993 and I can remember Corel 2 at the time...(that's what I was using then, wasn't as rich as Joe back then!! Couldn't afford the latest version. LOL)...BUT I can't remember this website or bulletin board back in 1993...MAYBE 1995 or 1996..but NOT 1993!!!!!! LOL LOL
But Joe IS correct..when I bought my first Roland cutter, having CorelDraw 2 already, I was told that "Ya CAN'T cut vinyl from CorelDraw" So I bought a signmaking program (not one of the "popular" ones, and it WAS needed for cutting beyond the 30" x30" limitation of the "desktop publishing" limitations of Corel 2)
And finally, after doing a "southern tour" holiday, and meeting the "famous" Joe Pribish I found out how to actually cut vinyl from Corel..THEN Corel finally expanded the page limitations of 30" and I was away to the races.
THANK YOU Joe!!!!
Joe might not type well but he sure as hell knows what he is typing about!!
Oh..and if anyone needs to know..Joe ain't all that old..he is about 10 months younger than me..and NOT as good lookin!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
I'm only havin' a bit of fun with Joe because I know it would be a waste of my time and his for me to try to convince him that the first guys to market with an innovative new technology aren't greedy or evil.
Still, I would like to address the issue...
The Gerbers and 3Ms (not the Rolands) of this world are the guys who invest enormous resource into researching and developing new technologies to bring to market. They also re-invest a large amount of their profits into continually developing new, innovative solutions to bring to market in future.
You want unfair and greedy? Consider the "china copies" made by latecomers who -- having made none of the initial investment -- enter the market with predatory pricing, to take an unfair and greedy share of the profit from the innovator in question's enormous investment.
I don't expect anyone to shed a tear for Gerber, but sometimes I wish people would free themselves of whatever misguided prejudice they carry that leads to the "Gerber have been ripping us off, man" conclusion.
'nough said on that subject.
Glad to by you a beer, Dave...You too Joe!
[ May 26, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Just a quick question....not to carry on or anything.......but once I went to a sign show party in Vegas put on by Roland. The band that played that night played Roland keyboards and synthesizers. Would that be the same company as Roland plotters? They sure know their stuff if it is.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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It is the same company. I have been playing guitar for near 20 years and their digital and analog effects are the best built there are. Their old stuff is built like a tank. They are also one of the pioneers of digital synthesizers. Today they make digital recording machines, effects processors for all musical instruments and all kinds of other digital stuff. Those Japanese companies make all kind of stuff just look at Yamaha, Honda and Mitsubishi. Yamaha makes verything from violins to motorcycles. Mitsubishi make everything from Cars to TV's Reckon we'll ever see a Ford Plotter?
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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That's cool John. I always wondered about that. Looks like Roland has been around quite awhile. thanks!
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I have a Roland synthesizer, a DX21 circa 1987 and a half dozen or so Roland "pedals" some from about 1982-83. It all still works like the day it was bought. Their DX-7 synth revolutionized the "semi-afforable, I beleive it was $1999 in 1985 or so" digital synth market I beleive it came out in 1983 or so. If you check out VH-1 and watch any of the 80's video's you're bound to see one. It's cool, I saw the Roland logo when I started signs and I was like no way! I don't know if they make anything else though.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Curious, go here www.rolandus.com and check out their music stuff. I haven't been into music for a while so I am out of the loop as far as newer equiment goes, I do have a modest computer based recording studio but I haven't got time to mess with it anymore. Wander if they sell more plotters or music stuff, I put my money on the music stuff.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I visit this site every day (night) and appreciate all the information here. I have posted a number of times, trying to help others too.
I own a franchise sign shop. I have been flamed here before because of it. But I am tuff- skinned, and can get along with almost anybody.
I deal with a lot of the same issues that have been raised in this thread. I compete against independents, other franchises, garage newbies, Kinkos, and companies that have set up their own sign departments.
I won't deceive myself that in 4 years my design skills are as good as yours, Cheryl. But I take pride in what I do, I keep learning, and my business is growing. We get our share of quicky Arial red on white signs- the customer determines a lot of what we sell.
I have a 'cordial' relationship with most of the independents in my area. We help each other out with material when the need arises. The independents (that work out of their homes) are a bit "cheaper" than me. Those that pay rent like I do, usually are more in line with my pricing.
Jon, I agree with your view--we need to take stock of what we can do to add value to our customers, and diversify into different products.
-------------------- Stephen Bolin Signs By Tomorrow Holland, MI Posts: 78 | From: Holland, MI | Registered: Aug 2001
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jon...henry ford was inovative....and when he got the "car" goin....he brought the price down..so everybody could afford it....and GERBER sure dont follow his lead!!!! then all the other car companys got thers going..some sold for way more, other competed with ford....and they all do the same job....just how much you wana spend. i was aware of GERBER when they cameout with the old 4a or b....and saw people spend rediculus amounts of money for them. was not in my budget...nor did i want to be caught up in something that was forever gona be....upgrade, upgrade, upgrade,.....i was paintin signs..for many years before this...and my 1st computer was a compaq suitcase with a 7" green screen...and the only program that was available was BANNERMANIA. ran in dos 4.1. i had that hooked up to a epson wide carriage printer..and made a lot of pounce patterns with it. all the time i was lookin to get some kinda sign softwear and a better computer... got a 386dx40 4 megs ram 130 meg h/d....i was in business wih corel draw 3....still usin the epson printer....then i got a chance to buy a ROLAND PNC-1000 for $1500.....and picked it up and set it up at the house and was cuttin from corel draw 3, arts & letters express 5.0....and ALE would cut longer runs then corels 30". i watched the big shops buy gerbers..and i was one of those who do the same job for less money....yep....because i didnt have $$$$$1000's tied up in equip. i still use that $1500 roland, bought another used PNC-1100 for $1000 and they both are built like tanks and give me no problems....when i get rich...and can afford a new plotter...guess what iam gona buy.....as for kickin butt.....heheheheh jon....you got good hospitalization? if ther is one thing i like better then paintin signs.....it kickin some butt....heheheheh
[ May 27, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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gosh, I remember using Corel to make plt files....then sending it to the DOS based "Cadlink" to cut to the Gerber 4B with an OmniCad board. I think it had to be Corel 2. This was even on a monochrome monitor.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Guys: I'm not Roland bashing, nor am I on the attack against Roland users...I just think it is wrong to characterize companies like Gerber as "greedy".
BTW: It was Yamaha Corporation (not Roland) who introduced the DX7 in 1983. Yamaha's DX7 was the first digital synthesizer to use FM synthesis techniques developed by a guy named John Chowning. If you look into the history of effects pedals, my guess is that you will find that Roland weren't the innovators in that department, either.
Joe: Henry ford innovated mass production, not the automobile. You're right that this made the automobile much more easily affordable for the consumer.
Now how's this for an irony: Gerber innovated MASS CUSTOMIZATION for the sign industry. In other words, by introducing us to vinyl cutting (Signmaker) and, later, to thermal mass transfer printing (Gerber EDGE), Gerber gave us the tools to "mass produce" customized signage for the end-user (your customers), at lower cost.
Stephen: Good on you for letting your views be known.
Cheryl: I seem to have got your discussion off track here. My apologies.
Here's wishing everyone a great day!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Jon, you're arguements are right on. Basic economics and good business. Too bad it will be lost on some here who are stuck in simple minded prejudices that they will not relinquish.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Joe, You're abslutely right on the 1100 ROLAND....I still use it every day....I keep thinking about getting a new one, but after I think about it, a second 1100 makes more sense. If I can find one and rebuild it...new rollers, etc., I'd probably NEVER need to buy a new one! As far as all this talk of innovation goes....I suppose everything has it's place....progress, and like that! But I have a Hiller striping brush I've had for 40 years (it was 30 yrs. old when it was given to me), that has made me thousands of bux! I've made more money with this brush than all the latest innovative crap I've ever had! When I started almost 50 yrs. ago, all you needed was 4 cans of lettering paint , a striping brush, a #4 & #8 quill, and a fitch. If you had $25 in it all, it would be surprising. Imagine starting a competetive business today with $25!!!!!!! So, even tho PROGRESS has taken us to new HIGHS, it's also screwed everything up!
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they do see us as the enemy,I still can't see all these corps getting into the sign world as a good thing,I know design is important and it doe's sell and keep good customers but this buisness is constintly being chipped away,I've been doing this a long time and it gets worse & worse my billboard buisness is completly wiped out lucky if I do two a year the trailer buisness is pretty much gone they got ther own cutter, and the big company's get their decals from large suppliers,still doing alot of wraps but they get boring,ten years ago the phone would ring 30 times a day now it's lucky if it rings 30 time per month,I used to laugh at people when they wanted me to paint their offices and homes now I've been taking on more and more paint jobs you know what it's very profitable no complaints they pick the colors and I paint it get done they pay me the hardest part is staying awake don't think I'll be doing signs too much longer maybe a couple of race cars, some wall work, but I think it's time to get out. 
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