posted
An interesting post about being Book Smart and Street Smart talked about how people viewed themselves.
The ensuing discussion brought up the usual bashing of college educated people, and how they never learn anything in college, etc. The basic gist of it seemed to be that if you learned on the streets, you were somehow better off.
That point of view certainly has some merit - learning the trade in the "real" world surely has immense benefits. I was fortunate to have it both ways. At age 15 I worked in a sign shop for a number of years, then I went off to college and earned a BA in Advertising and Communications. I painted signs all through college for the University. I learned tons in both scenarios.
But what's more interesting is this viewpoint of "craftspeople" vs. "business people." Its the same concept of book vs. street.
My attitiude, and dream growing up was to have my own sign shop - and the next part of it went something like this "I may not be a millionaire, but I'll be happy because I'm doing something I love."
It was all about this LOVE of the trade - this honor in craftsmanship - and the whole money issue was as if getting paid real money and operating as a business diminished being a true craftsman, or your artistic integrity. I don't know how I got this attitude at an early age, but it followed me later on -
Well after I started my business, I kind of operated that way. Put my heart and soul into everything, but wasn't as focused on the business part. Come marriage, mortgage and other financial responsibilities, my attitude and viewpoint changed, and I became more focused on the business, and yes MONEY. My business decisions became more focused on the dollar, and what impact they would have on me.
I began charging what work was worth. I raised the rates. I stopped showing mercy for those who couldn't pay me appropriately. I guess, I became a BUSINESSMAN as well as a CRAFTSMAN.
And you know what, I found out that there's no there's no shame in that - no lost honor. I make a very good living but still believe I'm a craftsman.
Perhaps I've "sold out" - I don't think so. But the business has become less focused on putting my heart and soul into every job - and more about running a business, not a labot of love. Love won't send my girls to college, or pay my mortgage, or build my retirement fund.
I still enjoy what I do. But I equally enjoy a healthy bank account. I guess thats how I've changed over the years.
[ May 24, 2002, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Dan Antonelli ]
Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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It can be difficult to find the balance between wanting to just doing work that is satisfying creatively, and cranking out some decals that show no artistry, but are what the customer wants, and that pay some bills. When I make myself step back, it is usually the more production line type jobs that are the ones that make more money in less time, and thus pay the bills.
Especially with a family to support, you have to decide what really is most important to focus on. Is it better to be the nice artistic sign guy who is afraid to charge too much(or charges higher prices for jobs that take too long), and is always struggling to get by- or a more businessman-like signmaker/designer that learns to charge for the value of his work and builds a business.
I don't want to be a salesman or manager, but I realize I must if we are to ever get ahead. (It's actually not that bad, once you get into the swing of it.)
Thanks for your book, articles and posts, Dan! I always learn something that helps my business move forward.
-------------------- Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Hampton, NH USA Posts: 271 | From: NH USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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Dan you will not get an argument from me.For 13 years now I have been suckered in to the customer saying theres no money for extras.I am thinking about closing shop and honing my skills in striping and air brushing.I don't want to be a business gooroo I just want to paint,stripe and have fun. Great topic!!
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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My son and two classmates needed help with some pipebending and welding for a project for their high school physics class. They went to a friend, a welded -fabricator(30 years old). He did a marvelous job for the kids and billed them $600. He also offered them work at his place @ $10 an hour to pay off their debt. From his perspective he's doing good business and expressing compassion and teaching them about the real world.
At the same time he was doing this, I was making a banner for the graduation ceremony. I put in the same amount of time as Matt did, however, I have no intention of charging the kids a penny.
I've had many experiences of kids coming back later and telling me how putting my heart into giving and having fun doing the art has directed their decisions later in life. The value of those expressions is tremendous to me.
I think that when I hit my early thirties I was able to relax and be more merciful to those that had a need and not the money. During my mid to late twenties I was hard...all of life seemed that way. I think the transition was what Bob Dylan was singing about when he said, "Ah, but I was so much older then....I'm younger than that now."
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Dan. Something that Cam mentioned on the Book vs Streets thread struck a chord, and that was the point of formally educated people feeling a sense of "entitlement". I've encountered this in my dealings with them, and I don't necessarily feel this is a bad thing. As businesspeople/craftspeople, we ARE entitled to ask for and receive a FAIR compensation for our efforts on our clients' behalf. If we view ourselves as street-educated craftspeople, we may be short changing ourselves and undervaluing our work.Perhaps this is indeed one of the "strengths" of a formal education. The instilled idea that one's knowledge and expertise has real VALUE, and one should charge for that intangible.
I also noted on that thread, that Rob Clarke indicated that he's in direct competition with a couple of advertising agencies for designing some beverage labels. It would be very interesting to compare what each of those "proposals" are valued at, and if the perceived value is lesser or greater, if the final package is chosen from the ad agency, or the "street smart" individual.
I think that many sign craftspeople are just beginning to get their collective heads around the notion of properly valuating their work. There are many facets to this trade, but the retention of the idea of "craftsperson first, businessperson second" may indeed be the millstone that prevents some from enjoying more monetary gain.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Hi Dan, as I mentioned in the other post, I thought it was best to have both Street and Book smarts. There are different types of people. I just happen to be one who doesn't like to read about how to do something unless absolutely necessary. I like to do it myself! Trial and error. But that certainly does not make me 'better off'. I am a lousy business person. I tend to think more like Rick Sacks alot of times. (I like your style Rick!) I know I have been flamed here for saying I give stuff away. Yes I will toss in a quick corex sign for free once in awhile to my favorite customer. I like to do that. So think what you want. When I had my storefront shop I pretty much had to operate more as a BUSINESSWOMAN. money money money. Time is money. Mark those materials up. I had to be there between the hours of 8:30 and 5:00. And to be honest. I hated it. Oh sure, I should put some of those rules to use now, and I would have more money! Yes indeed. But then aren't I letting the business run me? Different strokes for different folks I guess..................................
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I think I may have to disagree with Cheryl on this one.
Giving things away once in a while DOES NOT make you a lousy buiseness person.
When you give a coro sign, or some other trinket, to a good customer you do two things. 1. You turn a customer into a friend. 2. You turn a good customer into a better customer.
These trinkets don't always have to be freebies either. When I letter a van or pickup that does not have a license plate on the front, I always put one on with the logo on it. The invoice does not show the license plate(or the Armorall on the tires), but it WAS included in the original price.
As far as freebies for school kids... soon, they will grow up to be potential customers. A lot of my customers come to me now, because they remember when I did the banner, part of the prom decorations, or some other little something for their class.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2277 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Freebies don't work for you but only to the Customer advantage......
As businesspeople/craftspeople, we ARE entitled to ask for and receive a FAIR compensation for our efforts on our clients' behalf. If we view ourselves as street-educated craftspeople, we may be short changing ourselves and undervaluing our work.Perhaps this is indeed one of the "strengths" of a formal education.
How we have to learn the True.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Maybe a little clarification is due here. I've been quoted here on the subject of those with formal education having a sense of "entitlement". My meaning, in the context which I wrote it, is the belief held by some college grads (chiefly those with advanced business degrees) that a corporate job and subsequent paycheck is an "entitlement", seperate, to a certain degree, from performance. My biggest gripe with large organizations, whether private or public, is that they serve as a buffer betwwen individuals and the consequences of their actions. People working in these organizations become more involved in justifying their position within the organization, rather than performing a tangible service, with a definable outcome.
Think about the last time you had a problem with a large organization - let's pick on UPS (which did its level best to screw up my day yesterday). A package gets lost - remember the hassle with the babydoll banner? - and no one has any serious interest or motivation to find it. Customer service consists of people whose entire training and purpose is to lie, obfuscate, mislead, and otherwise tell unhappy customers whatever will mollify them; they have no stake in actual performance - they will get paid on Friday, whether my vinyl arrives or not. On the other hand, whether or not I get the vinyl - and subsequently letter the customer's truck - has a direct, immediate impact on whether I get paid today. Yet that customer service staff works hard - they are answering calls from unhappy customers, for whom they have no real solutions to offer, and they damn sure feel entitled to get paid. So do the MBA's who designed and manage the whole system - yet they are entirely insulated from the consequenses of their actions. If you screw up consistently in the sign business, you will go broke, and fairly quickly. But a middle manager at UPS or Chrysler or the Department of Housing and Urban Development can be a total waste of space for years, provided he or she has the necessary skills to justify keeping a job - passing the buck, backslapping, ass-kissing, or just looking busy. Since these "skills" are more important to getting and keeping a job than actual performance, what do you think they pay Omnipitence University all those thousands of dollars to teach them?
I'm not down on higher education per se. A student with a lively curiosity and a better than average mind can get a lot out of it. But there was a time when the purpose of a University degree was to teach people to think - and they did so by having them study the words and actions of those whose words and actions had a measureable impact on the course of human events. Why do you think your grandparents, if they went to college, were expected to learn Latin and Greek, or to read Plato and Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and Voltaire, or study the campaigns of Julius Ceasar and Hannibal and Napoleon? For fun? NO! They were learning how to think, and how thinking affects performance, from those whose words and actions had real - and lasting - consequences in the real world.
But look at what passes for education today. To make a decent living from a college degree, you don't learn to think - god forbid - you learn the rules for gaining entry and climbing the ranks of organizations where thinking is actively discouraged. This process washes out the genuinely creative and intelligent, and rewards the conformists and the dullards. The active mind, the creative and intelligent and perceptive mind, soon recognizes this conundrum, and responds in differing ways. Some learn to cope with the "system" and spend their lives trying to perform, and to inspire performance, while hiding their own light under a barrel. You know these people - they are the engines of whatever organization they are in, the go-to people who solve problems, overcome obstacles, and suffer the migranes and ulcers as a result. Then there are those who drop out, partially or entirely; they refuse to fit in or conform or follow rules set up to manage those with neither the imagination nor self-discipline to get along without controls. A lot of us here fall into that category, myself included - we keep the world at a safe (or at least, sanitary)distance, deal with it out of necessity and with shuddering distaste (my own emotional response, on being required to deal with Town Hall or the DMV or customer service at any large corporation, is much like having to clean the septic tank - a nasty job, but occasionally unavoidable). A very few succeed beyond all expectation, defying the odds and the obstacles around them, and leave a legacy of brilliance - Mozart being a prime example.
To get back to the original thought here, I don't define "entitlement" the same as "earning". To me a sense of entitlement is when you expect a reward, whether it was earned or not, based upon your position or title (hence the word!). Genuinely productive and creative people have no need for entitlement - their rewards, both material and psychological, are those which are earned by actual tangible performance. Only those people whose performance - or lack thereof - has nothing to do with their rewards, have any need for a concept of entitlement. And speaking personally, I'm sorry for them.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The reason I went into this profession was because of newly evolving entitlement system based solely on education. I worked in office related jobs at Ford Motor from 1972- thru 76, and what was being implemented and is now standard, is advancement based solely on higher education. No need to show initiative, creativeness, or any other attribute that was found in most of the early founders of these companies in this country.
I think self employment in general has become the fall back choice for many who do not fit into the stultifying conformity present everwhere in corporate and civic America. Here one has to know and produce and show up, and keep doing it everyday. No blaming, passing the buck, or just plain existing will suffice. We all know that.
The skills learned this way may take longer but the lessons embed themselves deeply. I do not denigrate those that go the college route and use this to achieve the same aims I do. As we have noted, get rid of the entitlement attitude, when you enter the real world you are still starting at square one like the rest of us.
Cam reminds me what was once common knowledge about higher learning. It's main purpose was teaching on how to think, give them well rounded fundementals and with this arsenal go into the world with a sound foundation to build on. Do you think most of the dullards coming out now show this. If it doesn't apply to you, no harm taken right?
Education is a lifelong process, ended by most at 22 years of age. I and many on this board believe it continues. Still so many things I want to learn, many having nothing to do with this profession.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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i know a lot of craftsmen - guys (and some gals) who are masters of their craft. they all charge top dollar. one's a BMW (motorcycle) mechanic, another is a pressman, and another is an electrician. the lowest paid charges $65/hour. they have great respect for their craft, their training, and they know the value of what they do.
i know more than a few sign painters who don't respect themselves enough to charge what they're worth. they haven't bothered to do the work to learn how to charge what they need to prosper. they may be great with a brush, but they aren't any better than the sign franchise folks who offer $49 banners that they pooh-pooh.
i'm not very good at making or painting signs. thanks to the support i've got here, i'm learning to be better.
i AM very good at selling signs and running a business. i try to offer support to sign makers who are trying to learn to be better businesspeople.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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It all comes down to self-respect, doesn't it? The corporate job-holder whose entire career is based on smoke and mirrors doesn't have much. Neither does the sign-painter who sells his talent to the lowest bidder. Yet take a so-called ethics or philosophy course - or just watch and listen to what's commonly accepted in our society and you'll be filled with a pile of swill about the virtue of self-sacrifice, and how greedy and evil it is to make a profit. Then look at how so-called "profit" is manufactured - by people like the Arthur Anderson or Enron or any number of dot-com executives. Only clear-thinking individuals - someone who doesn't allow their rational judgement to be blinded by the noxious smokescreen of popular culture and public opinion - can see through this and discover what really matters - that honest effort has its rewards, that those rewards are honorable and deserved, and that self respect is based on not deceiving yourself or allowing anyone else - no matter WHO it may be - to lie to them about it. It's not easy, it takes guts and a willingness to go against the grain. But in the end, it's all that ever really matters.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I know I have been flamed here for saying I give stuff away. Yes I will toss in a quick corex sign for free once in awhile to my favorite customer. I like to do that. So think what you want. 
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