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In 13 years we have never had a job that involved lashing a banner with a lot of rope. Now I have to install a 42" x 202" (about 17') banner by lashing it to a existing plastic pipe frame (3" diameter PVC pipe) that is 48" h x 210"w. We have had a new banner sewn with grommets every 6.5" and in each corner. I think there are 78 grommets in it for threading rope thru and around the pipe. The frame is about 12' off the ground at the lower edge and 16' at the high edge. There is a small overhang below the frmae that will make placing a ladder difficult but not impossible.
I have several questions that I hope someone here can help with. How do you go about lashing this so that you minimize the install time? (skip every other grommet is not an acceptable method!) It seems to me that pulling a 100' of rope through a hole 78 times is going to take a while. Just how much rope do I need to buy? What kind of rope will work well for this without stretching and allowing the banner to sag? Does someone have a formula or method to estimate the rope required?
How long do you think it should take to do the install? If the rope comes up short what should I do? Unfortunately the client cut the previous banner down and tossed the rope before I could get there to measure it.
Looking forward to "hearing" your ideas?
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just some thoughts while watching the Toronto/Carolina game...
If I understand your measurements right, the opening in the frame will be approximately the same size as the banner...
I would use the wide nylon zip ties starting at the top. I would skip like every 3 grommets or so to semi tighten the banner to the frame.
I would then do the same at the bottom. after securing the banner in, I would then pull and straighten the banner as needed while filling in the open grommets.
If the frame is white or black, you're golden using the matching zip tie color. If not, you were going to use a rope and you cant match color to that, either... Hahahahahahaha! Pick the color which works best, I guess.
I don't know if you could do this but it would work for me. Zip and snip... I figure this would be quick and semi-painless.
Hey... what do I know... I'm just a sign painter!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Assuming that the ropes can't be replaced with tyraps as Bruce suggested, you have to decide how your lashing will look to determine how much rope you are going to need. With a single continuous loop over the frame, you will have enough with 100' barely. That is figuring 14" of rope for each grommet. I you make an additional loop on the frame as is used at times you will need more like 21" per grommet. I would use Bungee cords over the frame to hold the banner in position, then work the top and bottom separately, but at the same time to minimize moving the ladder. This means that you are using 2 pieces of rope but it will help with keeping the banner straight. You can work the sides individually. No matter what type rope you use you will get some stretch. Check with a marine supply store for their opinion on stretch and weatherability. They might also have something lashed to a frame to give you a look at the looping techniques.
posted
If you have a chance you should go nearby and check out a local awning that is lashed to a pipe frame. If you study the way it is done it is usually a simple looping method,and can be utilized in your circumstances.This can be done very quickly and lasts very well as they have used the same basic method for quite some time now,...
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hiya Chuck, Depending on the circumstances, you may want to check out the local camping store for what I call bungie-balls. They're used to hold canopies to frames for larger tents & such. They're basically a bungie cord that is looped with a ball on the end. You thread the material thru the eye & around the pole and use the ball end to catch the other end. It's tough to explain but a very simple product. I can post a picture later if you need to see what it looks like. Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks for the replys and advise. I am going to take Bruce and Santo up on the idea of ties or bungee cords to position the banner in place first then thread the rope in. I will also go looking for Checkers' bungee balls at our local Canadian Tire store (every product under the sun except food and lumber).
I also like Santo's idea of lashng the top and bottom at the same time to minimze moving the ladder. Seems to me starting in the middle of the left side and pulling the rope through the first grommet to the halfway point would give me two advantages. I could work the rope up with one end and down with the other then across the top and bottom at the same time (reduces ladder movement). The other advantage is I have effectively reduced the amount of rope I have to pull through each hole by 50%. This has to save some time.
I had guessed 13" per grommet but I think I will get an extra 20' of rope to make sure. I have a lot of 3/16" white twisted nylon left over from a project years ago. That will likely get used for this job.
Mark, the idea of pole pockets won't work in this case as the pipe frame is held off the brick wall with 8 T joints in the long sections of pipe and 4" lengths of pipe back to the wall. They used a base joint at the other end of each 4" section to lag the frame to the wall. I would have to take the whole frame apart, cut some holes in the back of the pole pockets and figure out how to put it together again. If I was building the frame from scratch I think I would go the pole pocket route. Would save some money (no need to buy rope) and a lot time lashing the thing together. In fact I have made interior trade show signs exactly like that in the past.
It is beginning to look like Friday will be install day for this one. We got most of the graphics and text on the face today. Lets hope it doesn't rain on Friday. This would not be a fun job in the rain.
After I have done this I will post again to let you know what I learned!
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well I did it! Actually my son and I did it. Here is what we did...
Decided to tackle this Thurday evening as the weather report called for rain Friday. Took two 24' ladders to get up there. Turned out that a narrow overhang (24") in front of the pipe frame was strong enough for us to stand on. This saved us a whole bunch of time. No need to move ladders every 5 minutes.
We used Bruce's approach of putting the banner up with electrical ties every 3 or 4 holes first. This allowed us to centre it properly and get the banner to the proper tension. After we strung the rope through the grommets these electrical ties were cut off.
I had decided I needed 90' of rope to lash it thru 78 grommets in one length. I cut the rope to 135' just to be sure. Turned out I overestimated. We had about 60' left over when done (two 30' lengths). I likely was off on the diameter of the pipe and the distance from the grommets to the pipe.
We started in the centre of the top of the banner and pulled the rope through to the half way point. This way I could feed it through the grommets to the right while Nate worked the other half of the rope into the grommets on the right. You only pull half as much rope through each hole this way and you get twice as much done per unit of time.
We used 3/16" braided sheath into grommets with 1/4" holes. This was easy to get started through the grommets...however the rope would get twisted and as you got to the end it would knot up and catch in the grommet. Eventually we decided to just let the rope drop to the ground each time (we were looping it in our free hand) and this seemed to minimize the twisting and knoting.
I took a box full of spring clamps to the site. After we had threaded five or six grommets we would put the rope taunt and clamp the rope to the pipe frame. This keep the rope taunt as we continued threading.
When we met in the middle of the bottom pipe we cut the excess rope off and looped both ends around a vertical supporting pipe (part of this frame) behind the banner. We tied the two ends together and declared it finished. Took the clamps off, snipped the electrical ties and hauled everthing down the ladder.
It took us about 100 minutes elapsed time to do this project. I believe the ledge saved us a lot of time. I think ladders would of doubled the time easily. If that ledge hadn't been there I would of considered taking the frame down and doing this on the shop table or on saw horses in the parking lot.
The installation part of this job turned out easier than I expected...a rarity when doing installations.
Thanks to all of you for the advise and ideas on dong this.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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