posted
Some of you may remember me posting some stuff for a band called 7X, well the name and graphic has changed in a dramatic new direction. Here is the new cover design.
what do you think? the graveyard and the red shading are all tied in with the christian element and the name of the band....
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
I'm sure he does. But, I don't think he would be considered the poster child of choice for leading people to Christ. Would anyone take Ozzy seriously if he did a PSA against drugs, alcohol abuse and foul language? I don't think so. It would make for a better comedy skit for Jay Leno and David Letterman if anything.
But none of that has anything to do with my point. My point has to do with the power of properly applied imagery (both photos and fonts) to communicate a message. Note the font used in Ozzy's album cover. Anything seem familiar?
Would you have confidence in a doctor who's sign used Comic Sans or Dom Casual as the primary font? It might work for a pediatrician, but certainly not for a neurosurgeon.
Samething here. I can see Ozzy, as shown above, using it, but not Christ.
Designers need to be careful of how fonts and images are used. Cool is one thing, but it can have unintended responses.
* * * * * *
On a personal level, would Christ be pleased to be seen imitating Ozzy? Note the Christian element on the cover.
[ May 19, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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I understand what you say about the font used. But, I think your argument doesn't hold. One of the things the designer needs to be aware of is the targeted audience and first impressions.
The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw Barry's design were three things - Quake, Ozzy and the current Goth fad. Not Christ and certainly not from anything in the the Medieval period to the 1800's (well, maybe Edgar Allan Poe). Keep in mind, I am refering to the design as a whole, not just the font used.
What is the purpose of "Christian" but to uplift Christ and communicate His message. From a design point of veiw, how does Barry's cover design do that?
I'm not trying to create an arguement or slam Barry. As I said before, Barry's design looks great. I just don't think it conveys the intended message. Its an advertising thing I have since I grew up in it. What is Barry's cover design advertising?
[ May 19, 2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Glenn I respect your thoughts in life and truly don't wish the arguement either.
I like your humour to much.
My thought on the image is that we as individuals enjoy or phrase (Life in the sense of Birth.) But we hate the fact of the End (Death)
But it is still a rebirth of yourself if all is right.(In your peace of mind and your god.) That belongs to the 2 of you. So I don't see anything wrong in the Alfa or Omega of life in itself.
Kimberly......
"If we all are someone that believes in it."
I only used a loose phrase because we all don't float in the same boat.
It is the true spiritual right to believe in anything you like. The end result is still between you and yours.
OK! This is to much for my head.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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I know. I was just agreeing with you. No matter whether or not I agree with anyone's views, they are certainly entitled to them. The world would be a damn boring place if we all thought the same things. As the French say: Vive la difference.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Your arguement has merit to it, however *I* AM the targeted audience (25 year old rocker here) of both Ozzy and Christian Rock groups.. and Tas's cover art does in fact scream "We're a Christian Rock Band!!!".. at least, that's how *I* have perceived it. The cemetery has a dark connotation which is why *I* assume 7X is a Heavy Metal or at least a Rock group, this will attract people to the cover and the band because rockers are always looking for something with more edge.. nothing says edge like a graveyard but the copy used on the cover screams Christian. That font has more of a Celtic or Medieval "feel" but the origin doesnt even matter, nor does its similarity to the font used on an Ozzy cover, because "it just looks cool".. that's what's going to make people pick up that CD.
Have you seen Ozzy's tv show, "The Osbournes"? In case you havent, it's a reality TV show where they put cameras in Ozzy's home and broadcast his family's lives. You might be surprised to know Ozzy is fully anti-drugs and alcohol.. of course that's after the fact but who better to preach the message than a man that's obviously experienced and became a victim of it?
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I know Mortification and DeGarmo and Key are both considered Christian groups.
Tristania - well I never woulda thought you'd be listening to Norweigan Doom Metal..
Opeth - What can I say about them? Definitely NOT anywhere near Christian, in fact they're about as anti-christian as you can get.
Ozzy is his own best example of what drugs and alcohol can do to ya, and I think when you go past the humor and irony, kids DO in fact pick up the message. You can't sit a teenager down and scream at them not to do this or not to do that. They have to absorb the info at their own pace and be allowed to make the decision for themselves. Removing choices and forcing decisions is a recipe for rebellion.
Anyway, back to the cover art..
The message isnt in the cover, it's in the music, but you'll never hear the message if the cover art doesnt entice you to pick up the CD. The target audience in this case (hard rockers) are looking for the edge.. I know this because I'm a hard rocker.. the more graphic the better.. It's like the Mortification cover, it looks the way it does to attract heavy metal fans, and that's what you find inside it. If you judge the CD solely on the cover and you've never heard any of the group's songs before, you might not ever guess it's a Christian group.. it could be just another heavy metal group, maybe even find it on the shelf right behind Metallica.
Tas's art will work the same way. They're trying to attract rockers.. cemeteries, crosses and celtic/gothic letter styles will do that. The listeners can learn the message within from the music. Save the angels, halos, harps, etc for John Tesh or Yanni, they wont work here.
Take a look at the DeGarmo and Key cover art. Hmm... that art just SCREAMS classic rock. It has the classic Jimmi Hindrix/Doors drug-induced "Droop-O-Vision" lettering.. That's going to attract all classic rock fans, not just the ones looking solely for Christian music. An unsuspecting non-devout christian would never guess the music inside is all Christian related, on the other hand, if the cover had all sorts of highly religious imagery on it, ONLY those looking for Christian music would ever pick it up.
By straying from the message ever so slightly, you can appeal to a wider variety of potential buyers.
What does the Orchid have to do with the music on that Opeth CD? Not a whole lot.. it's a pretty flower, but it's not indicative of the music behind it.. a Venus Fly Trap with a Pirannah(sp?) swimming inside of it would be more fitting.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Hehe...Yeah...sneaky ain't I. But, thats more to the point isn't it?
Well, I've tried to keep the discussion strictly about design. But, faith keeps being brought in. So here goes.....
When you can't tell the difference between the religious and the secular, then what's the point of calling anything Christian. So we'll argue that these designs are to entice "unsuspecting" non-believers into listening to "the message." Does Christ need to use the World's tools to convey His Message? Is Christ that weak and powerless?
1 John 2:15,16
quote: The message isnt in the cover, it's in the music, but you'll never hear the message if the cover art doesnt entice you to pick up the CD.
Did Christ need to trick anyone into listening to his message? If He were here on Earth today, would He have to dress like Marilyn Manson for anyone to hear Him?
Just something to consider.
[ May 19, 2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
After reading all the replys and looking at your design again, I have to ask you a few questions,
What does the cemetary represent?
What does the red color represent?
Although my first reaction was Awesome design, I did feel an evil tone to the design, becasue of the red color and the cemetary. Cemetaries always remind me of horror movies ( haha ) and red well we all know what that relates to...haha.
But then I looked over a few of my christian cd's and I an honestly say None of the ones I listen to have a " christian " cover or convey a christian feeling through the cover. But on the contrary the music is what I listen to not the cover. I never buy a cd based on the cover.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hmmmm..."Does Christ need to use the World's tools to convey his message?" Well, it would appear to me that back in his day, he did exactly that. They came to be known as "deciples", and convey his message they did. Among their number were an ex tax collector, a fisherman, and heavens, even an ex prostitute. Regretably, not too many of the "religious leaders" of his day were among those strongly promoting his gospel. In point of fact, Christ was often "at odds" with the scribes and pharrisees of his day.
These were the guys who were supposedly "the authority" on the scriptures. Why do I get the feeling that not all that much has changed??
As for the design itself. At first glance, I thought that it might be an appropriate album cover for something like "Singing With the Dead"... A collection of digitally re dubbed songs like where Lisa Minelli and Judy Garland or Hank Wiliams Jr. and his dad, or Natalie & Nat King Cole perform again Together. I'd have never suspected that it had anything to do with "Christian Rock Music" whatever that might be.
[ May 19, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken Henry ]
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
First of all, Glenn Taylor! Why were you at home commenting on my album cover instead of going to church?? (according to the time the notifications came in, you and Stephen had your discussion between 11:00 and 4:00 cst. SHAME!)
Secondly AMEN KEN HENRY!
Now then:
I am so glad I stayed out of this and let this discussion happen!! YOu guys ALL made my day!!
Now onto some answers to Bob's questions, and a little clarification.....
\Vi*ca"ri*ous\ "Acting of suffering for another; as, a vicarious agent or officer."
"Performed of suffered in the place of another; substituted; as, a vicarious sacrifice; vicarious punishment."
The vicarious work of the Great Deliverer. --I. Taylor.
The name of the band is VYCARIOUS, spelled with a "y" to make sure the uninformed pronounce it as VIE, not VICK....also to secure the website
Here is the philosophy behind it: Jesus' death was my death, and the death of any other that choose to receive it. He suffered VICARIOUSLY. I now LIVE VICARIOUSLY.
Paul said: "The life that I now live is by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I live, yet not I, CHRIST LIVES IN ME."
Hence, VYCARIOUS.
Now, onto the imagery of the cover....Bob, you had it nailed if you had just opened your eyes a little wider....
The cemetary symbolizes => DEATH....death is the result of SIN. Jesus came to vicariously purge the stain of sin from man. He did this by his BLOOD....I think that was the other horror movie reference that you mentioned, Bob. That is why the cemetary (death, sin and punishment) is colored red, for it is covered by His blood. Is it a little ponderous, mysterious, even a tad unsettling? YEP! But when is it that this subject is NOT, when you get real about it....?
Y'know, if you were to make a nonchurchy true to life movie version of the bible--particularlly the bloody end of Jesus' human life, I bet the film would struggle to wrench an "R" Rating from an "NC-17"...it was a brutal and ugly thing... full of all those bloody and negative elements, yet in the midst of all that there is the promise of LIFE...
that all said--the image is MEANT TO BE subtle, not overt. Some will see the Christian message, others won't a\t first, but hopefully will enjoy making the introspective connotations and how it applies to them as they explore the work.
Even with the gothic looking font, although it is not---it is charlesworth, with modified kerning and a capital I duplicated and laid in for the cross in the O....notice a couple of things...note the emphasis on the cross, note the RED to WHITE thing going on in the word....
Also, the OZZY font has an UPSIDE DOWN cross...if you will take note...special attention was taken to orient it that way.....
Blah blah
anyway the band wants to be a crossover group, with a valid message that shows the vitality and the power of christian reality without the overt and all too often hollow trappings of the "mainstream" church.
Mike Pipes gets it Glen--and even though I understand your point, I think you are wrong--God does use the world--just look at that salty coward, PETER....God uses FOOLS to confound the WISE..
Anyway, You guys, and this discussion have proved this cover does what it is supposed to do, I am THRILLED!
Thanks for all you have had to share!
Barry PS Stephen, I agree with you about SURRENDER..and I changed it!
posted
I disagree. Note: Ex-tax collector and ex-prostitute. He also used a doctor and some lowly fishermen as well has his half-brother James. He even used a Jew who was persecuting and executing Believers. Were these the World's tools or His? All of these people were transformed from what they were into something greater. They ceased to be the World's tools.
Did Christ behave like a drunk in order to preach to the drunk. Did Christ steal in order to preach to thieves? Would He have to dress in full Goth in order to preach to Ozzy? Would Christ become a headbanger in order to reach Angus Young?
And you are also right. Not much has changed. That is why Believers must be careful.
I like the name, Vicarious. It's a well chosen word.
The problem is the imagery. Why must Christians look and sound like the World in order to gain acceptance? Is that what Christ did?
Yes, I understand Mike "gets it." But,it sounds like he's saying that the end justifies the means.
As to the Cross inside the "O". How you have it now is identical to many Goth sites. Personally, if a Cross is to be used, maybe it could be a little more obvious. But, thats just me.
With that said, I say great cover, ( and thanks for the explaination ) Not knowing the meaning of Vicarious, I looked it up in my thesaurus and got a different meaning, I guess I need to buy a new one, I just looked and the date on it was 1961 ( haha).
Anyway I'd be interested in hearing some of your bands music when your done. Have fun and keep us posted.
[ May 20, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I don't think that Jesus would have a problem with your cover design, assuming that His message is in the music.
On a side note: please keep those posted images to under 600 wide. I had to blow off reading most of the replies because that useless purple strip makes me have to side scroll like crazy.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Glenn--what determines if something looks and sounds like the world?
My mother in law would agree with you, and go further and say that god only likes SOUTHERN GOSPEL...
Here is the thing, Jesus certaintly did not "look" like the church of his day. He was at odds with them, daily, until they KILLED HIM.
HE BROKE MAN MADE ADDITIONS TO THE LAW, just to prove the idiocy of them, and he regularly spent time among heathen in pub/tavern-like settings, and for that was rewarded with an accusation, false of course of being a drunk.
My question is, did he go in there to compromise, or did he travel down a dark tunnel figuratively, just to hold a light for those who wanted a way out?
For toooooo long churchianity has sat back in their "STAINED GLASS FORTRESSES", and said, "hey world, come in here and get right....you really need JESUS"
The only problem is the world rarely HEARS THEM....because they stay inside their castles and say it where it is safe---and where they won't be defiled.
Meanwhile the WORLD can barely hear the MESSAGE, especially when our pompousness, and our hypocrisy, and our SCANDALS are so much louder....
Then there is that LITTLE thing Jesus said about "GO YE into all the WORLD...."
He didn't say be gracious enough to "let THEM COME"
It is very possible to enter the darkness without getting lost in it.
most saints just have false concepts and fears about it.
As for the relative subtlety of the cover art, well, I think the church has, by and large done way to much loud mouthed saber-rattling, all too often SAYING but NOT DOING.
To quote PETRA:
"SOMETIMES GOD'S CHILDREN SHOULD BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD...THERE'S TOO MUCH TALK, AND NOT ENOUGH WALK..."
and as someone else here said, "Vive la Differance'"
posted
I have really enjoyed this debate and the respect shown for each others views. Here's one more thought: All symbols used on the cover (cool design, btw) are originally only christian. It is the other groups (goths, etc)that are abusing them for whatever reason. Actually it would be interesting to find out WHY ??? Let them back off and quit using them.
posted
Lotti, First of all, thanks for commenting on something I was about to say - that everyone who has posted so far seems to be respectful of other peoples views and beliefs.
I'm not sure I agree with you about the symbols though. Just because something is perceived as belonging to one group or another - that doesn't mean that another group shouldn't use them. I don't condone someone taking another group's symbol and using it in a hateful or mean way so don't get me wrong on this.
Now, before I get people jumping on me about copyrights, I'm of course refering to common symbols like a cross or a rainbow.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Great thread, sorry I waited so long to check it out. One thought that I have not seen mentioned. As for selling christs message with advertising techniques, that is not necessarily the intent. I believe as much as christians are often interested in "saving" or "converting" non-believers, they (we) are also likely to express our beliefs through our lives (words, songs, actions)for our own sake. If others are affected in a positive way thats a bonus. In creating & recording Christian music the desire to share that music with the world (all of it) is only natural. I am not intending to speak for Barry or his wife's band, but I see no problem creating an album cover that speaks to the largest audience possible with a message that says BUY ME! Christians gotta eat too.
Granted the scenario you chose is not "Happy-Happy-Joy-Joy" but I think that's the seduction. Too many folks can relate to the barren feel of the cemetary and I think the word Vicarious is a brilliant idea.
I would play with the "s" in Vicarious, as it looks to lean to the right as it is.
The word surrender could be a font that doesn't look numbed out.
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