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An odd one, at least for me. A gild full of little rust spots, obviously from using steel wool to smooth down my primer (well dryed overnight I might add). They obviously embedded themselves in the surface microscopicly. I always vacuum, and wash/wipe with a damp cloth. About 2 months after sign erection, the spots are leaching through quite a bit. I think I am going to wait for the rusting to subside before working on this. Has this happened to any of you gilders? Will some of the rust removal products do the trick, with no damage to gold? My gilding kit came with steel wool.....
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Jack,..the first thing ya need to do is toss that steel wool in the round filing cabinet with all the other refuse, but guess ya figured that out,...I use scotchbrite pads instead,..If the oxidation process continues this problem will continue to haunt you. As for removal of the rust leaching thru the gild,...I would think that any way you remove it it is going to ruin any burnish you have in your gild,due to the thickness of the gold and its very soft characteristics.There may be a solution that would neutralize the rust if you sprayed it on with a spray bottle like used for app fluid.But any wiping motion to remove the rust is going to mess up the burnish if the rust particles are dragged across the surface of the gild. It may not be the simplest or most cost effective solution,but regilding after resanding down to the primer may be the only sure fire cure.
You don't mention if the gold has been cleared with a protective coating or not,but if it hasn't one might be in order after the oxidation from the steel wool is removed. That should stop any futher oxidation of the iron bits from the steel wool.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bronzeo, being out on the seacoast I have observed many old time wooden boat restorers use bronze wool to scuff varnish and paint to prep for another coat. I always thought it was because it was less abbrasive. Perhaps this is the real reason. I'll have to ask in the future. Next time try Bronzeo wool.
-------------------- Tom Howell Newbury, MA Custom paint, pinstriping, lettering since nineteen seventy something bchip105@hotmail.com 978-465-5675 Posts: 47 | From: Newbury,Ma | Registered: Jun 1999
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James....YES!...if there is still some steel left under the gold, and no clear coat!
Gold leaf is so thin that you can see thru it! 23.5K gold is SOFT...the act of burnishing it will put microscopic cuts in it, allowing moisture to reach the stel wool particles....therefore = rust!
In the good old "old days", white lead paint was used as an undercoat for gold leaf. It gave a nice smooth finish and acted as a barrier to anything behind the gold.
Somethimes new and high tech ain't better!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Timi, what size of scotchpad is fine enough for surface prep. Mine are all too coarse. I will try to find the bronze wool also, but bronze is full of its own impurities, but maybe not a radical as rust. I used 0000 size steel wool, and my hope is that since it has happened all over the gild like measles, that it will soon let up or rust out. The gold's purity will cause a rejection factor as it does with most all other impurities, and it will eventually repell the culprit. If it were larger particles, I would say it would take a long time. With this fine of wool, I believe it will not take a long time. As you say, I might be in for a redo. Why would they send steel wool with a gilding set? I have had this happen in prepping bronze sculptures with similar results, so that is why I vacuumed and washed out the primer, but didn't consider the microscopic imbedding into the primer. There are several chemicals that will dissolve rust, so I thought perhaps the gold would stand up to them. Maybe not, but it works with rust on paint of any kind. I would say it would have to be a spray on and rinse off event. I will certainly test the results on some in the lab, before going to the jobsite. Oddly enough, I feel that the sizing should have sealed the embedded particles for a good while, but like you say we never quit learning, and sometimes the hard way. Thanks for you comments and I will eventually post the results. Here is a photo of the sign and you will see why I don't want to have to regild it....
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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There are several treatments that effectively stop rust. That Pelucid Pierre sells seems to work. There is a product we get at the marine store that stops it. Paint that over the gold and then resize and gild. I see no need to sand it off. Leaving it just gives opportunity to have more durability and a smoother gild.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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On an irrelevant but somewhat related note…
Just throwing this information out there in case anyone would like to have it for future reference. (And to back-up what Captain Ken stated above)
3M Scotch-Brite™ Hand Pads, listed from most aggressive to least.
7440 Tan
7446 Gray
6444 Brown
7447 Maroon
6448 Dark Gray
7448 Light Gray
7445 White
The 7440 & 7446 work nicely with HDU to remove material with “flexibility” that riffler type rasps and other "hard" carving tools won’t allow.
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rick- if you are talking about the green liquid, it's called Ospho. The active ingredient in it is phosphoric acid- turns iron oxide into iron phosphate, which is inert. The stuff is readily available on the east coast, I havent needed to buy any of it since I've been out here- I'm not sure it's available in California, given their strict environmental regs.
Just another 2 cents...
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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I have a gallon of phosphoric acid. It isn't real toxic and you can get it on your skin and not do much damage in the % solution that it comes in for rust locking. It is strong to smell, but does well for the rust. The problem is it will turn the rust to black. I am trying to remove the rust from the gold without a regild. It is a 4x10 2 sided sign "of course"........I just walked over to the jewelry side of our business and asked the jeweler about testing for gold with acid and its effects, because they use nitric acid for the test. He says that acids will not do anything to gold, but will almost all other metals. I then bought some CLR from housekeeping and it does no damage to the gold. I imagine that if it works, I will have to apply it until the iron is gone completely, so I might as well let it go for a month or two. The church where it is located has not noticed it yet, because you have to be within 6 feet to really see it very well. I am going to go down in the nextg few days and try the CLR which is not to strong and if it works, use it in a few weeks. I hate the idea of clearing golds, so hope that is only a last resort. It really takes the flare down a few notches to say the least. Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hi Jack. A solution you might try would be to lightly mist coat the gilded areas with ordinary household vinegar (acetic acid). This is a milder acid, but if those are indeed microscopic iron particles, this should be sufficient to accelerate their disintegration to iron oxide (rust). After a day or so of exposure to the vinegar, most or all those particles should be dissolved. I'd then apply a second mist coating of vinegar, followed with a complete rinse off using the lowest pressure on a pressure washer.
After this treatment, I'd then wait a couple of days to see if any additional rust spots might appear. I'd be willing to bet that this would be the cure, and that no further rusting would occur, and it just might save you from having to completely re-guild the letters.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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The stuff I'm speaking of is much better than Ospho. Ospho is old technology. Monday I'll try to publish the name of the state of art stuff for that purpose.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The stuff we get at the marine store that really stops the rust is Corroseal. Water clean up. Here's what they say about it..... Corroseal™ Rust Converter and Copolymer Metal Primer Corroseal™ eliminates the need to sandblast rust by converting rust on steel from iron oxide, rust,to magnetite, Fe304, a black, inert substance. At the same time, it primes the metal for a final paint coat. The unique patented rust converter formula in Corroseal™ will convert heavy rust in one coat. Very heavy rust, 1/8" thick or more will require two coats. Corroseal™ is the best way to deal with rust because it is less expensive, takes less time, and is much more environmentaly friendly than sandblasting. It is used on ships, oil storage tanks, buildings, motor vehicles, trailers, tools, wrought iron furniture, etc. Wherever you see rust, you can use Corroseal™. It serves as the primer and bonds with oil based paint, epoxy, urethane and most other top coats. Corroseal™ is non flammable, non toxic, non corrosive, and biodegradable. Our customers like Corroseal™ because it does what we say it will do and is easy to use.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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