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I need to construct a glue-laminated panel by face gluing redwood 2x4's to achieve a 3 1/2" thickness. My question is simply what glue should I use? I'm aiming for a long lived exterior product. Are epoxies normally used for this and are they necessary? Thanks,
Pluteus
-------------------- Andrew Parker Parker Sign Metaline Falls, WA mycotrope@potc.net
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything" ---Wyatt Earp Posts: 9 | From: Metaline Falls, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've been using the urathane glues with great success. It blast down with the wood and doesn't leave a ridge like the epoxies. It's a one part glue and grows to fill gaps if needed. Scrape the excess of with a chisel and belt sand the remainder.
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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What Robert said... One popular brand is Gorilla glue, but there are a few others. The glue will always expand a lot after application and you will have a glue foam come out everywhere. I would practice on scraps to see the expansion and how much mess to expect. I would suggest plastic undersheet and rubber gloves, because it will not come off of your hands. It works very well though, and expansions can be removed with a scraper. Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by bronzeo: What Robert said... One popular brand is Gorilla glue, but there are a few others. The glue will always expand a lot after application and you will have a glue foam come out everywhere. I would practice on scraps to see the expansion and how much mess to expect. I would suggest plastic undersheet and rubber gloves, because it will not come off of your hands. It works very well though, and expansions can be removed with a scraper. Jack
Thanks Jack. Can you give me a source for the stuff? Also since it expands is extra care needed in clamping, and is the "working time" short? Incidentally I was born and grew up in Neosho Mo.
Drew
-------------------- Andrew Parker Parker Sign Metaline Falls, WA mycotrope@potc.net
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything" ---Wyatt Earp Posts: 9 | From: Metaline Falls, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Gorilla Glue is much like the expanding insulation foam in that it expands in proportion to the amount of moisture it is exposed to. Water sort of acts as a catalist if you will.
If humidity is low and your wood moisture content is low, it won't expand that much. When humidity is high, it will expand more. When gluing HDU together, I sometimes lightly spray one surface with water before applying the glue so that it will properly cure.
I use WestSystems epoxy for all my redwood. Never though about using gorilla glue for it. The glue "squeeze-out" would be much easier to sand off than epoxy. Might be OK.
O yeah, You can use acetone to help get gorilla glue off your hands or other surfaces BEFORE it cures. After that it is impervious to most chemicals. The gloves would be better than absorbing acetone into your skin.
[ May 03, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Andrew, Most sign suppliers will handle it or a like product. It is a polyurethane glue and appears like molasses. I believe Elmers makes one and is available in Lowes, Handy Dan, Home Depot. They are all very much alike. I believe the West System is a 2 part mix and is highly used like Wayne says. I have had no failures with the Gorilla type products. Alway use plenty of clamps, but the expansion will result a drools outside of the cracks. You will have no problem spotting them and they happen 30 minutes to 3 hours after the squeeze...... Neosho, eh cool little town. I know a lot of folks down there. They just got a new interstate highway through there. National fish hatchery, Teledyne, Buddy L, Sunbeam. Lots of big enterprise in a town of 10,000 or probably less. Take care, Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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This is real easy. Just squeese on some glue and screw the next 2x4 on top using deck screws. I have glued up 3'x16'x3.5" in 45 minutes!
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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I like John's idea, altyhough whenever I do such a lamination I drill holes and run rods of all-thread with countersunk double nuts and washers.
I've tested the Gorilla glue and some of the other brands that have the same read on the ingredients. They were not the same. Gorilla Glue far outperformed the Ace brand and a few others. You can wipe us the foaming stuff with a rag dampened with mineral spirits.
I have not tested this glue during frozen months, since we don't get that here. I know the West Systems epoxy has been well proven under freeze conditions.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by John Arnott: This is real easy. Just squeese on some glue and screw the next 2x4 on top using deck screws. I have glued up 3'x16'x3.5" in 45 minutes!
Terrific idea John. I expect to make use of it. Thanks.
-------------------- Andrew Parker Parker Sign Metaline Falls, WA mycotrope@potc.net
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything" ---Wyatt Earp Posts: 9 | From: Metaline Falls, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Rick Sacks: I like John's idea, altyhough whenever I do such a lamination I drill holes and run rods of all-thread with countersunk double nuts and washers.
I've tested the Gorilla glue and some of the other brands that have the same read on the ingredients. They were not the same. Gorilla Glue far outperformed the Ace brand and a few others. You can wipe us the foaming stuff with a rag dampened with mineral spirits.
I have not tested this glue during frozen months, since we don't get that here. I know the West Systems epoxy has been well proven under freeze conditions.
Yes, I intend to use 1/2" all-thread rod as well. And I like the idea of a one part adhesive if it is effective. We get plenty of freezing months here so that is a concern, but I suspect urethane glue wouldn't be affected.
Drew
-------------------- Andrew Parker Parker Sign Metaline Falls, WA mycotrope@potc.net
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything" ---Wyatt Earp Posts: 9 | From: Metaline Falls, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just out of curiosity... Does anyone use, or has anyone tried urea formaldehyde for gluing timber? It seems to actually fuse the timber along the glue joint and from experience so far shows no signs of breaking down when used for exterior work. David
-------------------- David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com Trying out a new tag: "Parents are the bones on which children cut their teeth Peter Ustinov Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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i would like to share what i have been using and never have had a fail in 10yrs( NO PEGS )...that i know of!
it is Weld Resorcinol Glue...made by DAP. it is a 2 part glue(Liquid Resin and Powder Catalyst) and has excellent strength and it is ideal for marine, exterial use, resists bacteria, fungus. you can find in most hardware stores
Letterhead this is the best stuff i have found..in my opinion keep the gorilla glue for the HDU and use Resorcinol and good bar clamps for wood!
also run the edge of the wood through a joiner.
hope this helps.
chris
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
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Chris, I used Recorsinal almost 30 years ago and enjoyed it for many years. The product was originally a US Plywood product and has been sold many times. It is still strong, holds up under water, and is messy to work with and hard to clean up after. It doesn't blast well and I always needed to chisel out the ridges that remained after blasting it. I still have a couple gallons of the stuff and never use it because I think it is old technology. Over the years I swiched to a one part epoxy called WELD, and then to the West System line. I find the Gorilla Glue simpler to use all the way around. It does have a limited shelf life once the container is opened though, so don't buy more than you'll use in a month or two at a time. Oh, back to the Recorsinol, if the liquid catalist gets thick, you can loosen it up again with alcohol. Super glue works great to bond salt and pepper shakers to restaurant tables.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you want a slab that will last forever (no matter what glue you use)Pre drill all the pieces identically and through bolt (in 3 places) with all 5/16" or 3"/8" all thread...counter sink the nuts and washer with a spade bit (nice look and functional)
Draw the wood together with the allthread (no clamps reqired) alternate the grains to minimize warpage.
This makes one beautiful slab...if you use the glue I use...as it oozes out you can scape it off with a broad blade and wipe it clean with a warm wet scotch brite pad and rag. (No sanding or scraping glue this way)
My personal preference is the two part Cassien Glue form Cassien Corp. Chicago Illinois. (Inexpensive and holds like iron).
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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I started out using the browm plastic-resin glue commonly known as "weldwood". I have signs made with it which are about 13 years old and still holding together. But the glue joints are cracked at the edges.
The recorcinol is even better stuff. I used it up til about 5 or 6 years ago and went to the west system epoxy. Out of all the glues I've tried: recorcinol, weldwood, signlife, Franklin titebond II, and epoxy, I have had no failures with recorcinol or epoxy. I think the epoxy is a little more resilient than the recorcinol which tends to be more brittle when cured. But the recorcinol doesn't delaminate.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Didn't want to interupt a guy thing here, however...I'm learning here! I've been giving some serious thought to dimensional tah-dahs! Flat substrates are beginning to bore me, LOL. (Thanks John for the craftsman's meet! I got to meet actual crafts-people ) (oh and to J.T. for kicking my creative spine with his knowledge and ideas!)
A year ago, I wouldn't have looked through this post for nothing. But, sling my happy butt in a few meets and show me what can be done with it, and voila, I'm fascinated. Knowledge is power and I like a big wind in my lungs!
...As you were fellas, just wanted to applaud the peaceful and informative way this thread is going...nice!
[ May 07, 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) (oh and to J.T. for kicking my creative spine with his knowledge and ideas!)
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