posted
A client/shop-neighbor of mine, an 80+ year old guy from Peru (has a woodcarving-furniture refinishing buisness) was eating lunch at a nearby restaurant and finds a biz card on his shop truck windshield from the county sign inspector. Says to call him. The inspector tells Emillio to remove his carved signs on the bed of his truck because his signs are distracting to traffic! They are cut-out 3/4 mdo w/ a round over edge, with the message Naples Handcarving, phone number etc. mounted to post in the stake pockets the bed of his aging pick up. I did the signs originaly and they are very tastefull. I tell him to protest to higher-ups at the county and they all side with the county inspector. AGGGGGGHHHHHHH! Anyway, we had to remove the signs and letter his truck on the doors and bed. This County is going toooo far in the interpertation of the county codes. Red tagging a nicely lettered vehicle. Cheers
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Robert, some people try to beat sign ordinances by lettering up basically junk vehicles and parking them next to the highway. Ordinances have wording to prohibit this, and you just have to keep the vehicle in everyday use to get legal.
In your case, it sounds like the vehicle is driven on a regular basis and someone is being over-enthusiastic in code enforcement. Building inspectors don't enforce traffic laws, police do. It sounds like you are being steamrollered. You could probably beat them if you were willing to work at it. My guess is they are counting on your client to just make the change to avoid a hassle.
I probably wouldn't fight it either - time and aggravation for a small reward. Are other Naples commercial vehicles having similar problems? If so you might call or write the National Sign Associations and see if any of them are willing to take it as a commercial free speech issue. The highways are full of flashy rolling billboards. What makes your client a special case? Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Glenn, there is a section in the code that refers to vehichle lettering that may cause a traffic hazard, but it is open to interpertation by overzealous inspectors. This was just a (faded)yellow background with black lettering I did years ago. It is illegal to park a vehicle in a parking lot to advertise your buisness, but this guy was having lunch and his shop is is in an out of the way commercial area. He does not park his truck in such a way to create a hazard or anything. I've encountered this inspector before and he is nuts, so I did not want to create waves with him personally. I will post the exact wording of the section in the a.m. Cheers
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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You have a major free-speech/restraint of trade issue here. Don't let this lousy little Nazi scumbag of an inspector (gosh Cam, tell us how you REALLY feel!) get away with this - success just feeds his nasty little Fascist ****ebag ego.
Going to people higher up the County food-chain is useless; remember, they all essentially think the same way. Have you got any muckraking journalistic/TV news types who regularly do stories about "little guys" being stepped on by soulless bueaucrats? They'd eat this story up - old man, hardworking immigrant, small business, screwed by municipality. You don't have to be a public advocate, just manipulate things from behind the scenes. The media is awash in "victim" stories, this one at least has the added benefit of justifiable outrage.
They just handed you a violin. Play the right tune, and your client will get sympathy and an apology. Play it really well and you might even rid Naples of one particularly slimy form of vermin. Have fun!
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cam's right. Let the muck-rakers do what they do best. A couple of days with the newspaper or TV types investigating past citations issued by your kook inspecter, may turn up some questionable decisions and result in a better worded ordinance.
posted
Cam is right. Don't back down and let this guy have his way. Most of those codes are (or should be) written in a way that you can go through an appeals process for crap like this. Someone created this guy's position and someone else wondered if if was worth it... do we need this guy... does he have any real authority - so now he's pushing and testing.
Get backing on this from your local business community. Let them know (as it was said in "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers") "YOU'RE NEXT, YOU'RE NEXT!"
This is IF you have the time to deal with this crap. They seem to make it URGENT for you to act on their "interpretation" and then when you question anything, they have all the time in the world to drag this out.
I'm REAL interested in seeing how that code is written as we are putting one together in our city right now. I have Nazi D*****bag scum to deal with as well.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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If they call signboards on a truck distracting, what do they consider a billboard? What a hippatwit. The other guys are right-the local media must have one of those hotlines that you could use. They LOVE that kind of bearocratic idiocy. It's true- Common sense isn't common!!
Maybe some nervy competitor tried to cause a ruckus.
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I'd certainly fight this one! Might need to make covers over the signs for a while, but leave them there.
Years back, when we moved up here from the city, I was curious how lettering would hold up on the outside of a window. It worked fine in the southern part of the state. My wife had a shop in the downtown and I lettered her glass. The shop was in the middle of the block, with city hall at one end and the courthouse at the other, so there was much foot traffic and lots of government types. Well folks, this one inspector left a card after hassling Megan about not having a premit for her sign. I went to see this guy and politely explained that window signs were exempt from the permit process and showed him the code. He took the book and flipped the page showing me that wall signs required permits. He told me how windows signs were on the inside of stores and exempt, but this was on the outside and therefor in his jurusdiction. Here is where the battle started.
I phoned three newspapers and invited them to come to Megan's store at a specific time next Thursday. I requested a meeting at that location with the inspector at the same time. I also hired the glass shop to send over a couple guys to remove this big plate glass and turn it over and re install it with the backwards lettering on the inside.
Two of the three papers sent representitives. The inspector showed. The glass folks were on time. The glass never got touched and the inspector and I called a truce and have been friends for twenty five years since.
[ May 03, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've been planning to do something similar to that with my truck. Right above the sides of the bed, sandblasted, carved wood signs. I don't think they'll give me any hassle here. But you never know.
[ May 03, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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In our county, the sign code for my area allows only 6 square feet of signage...my sign is exactly 6 sq. ft.
Now the rub..they want me to remove my signs on my truck because now my square footage is over...my truck doors are lettered and I park it in front of my house and shop ( We are home based)
Well...they have opened a big can of worms. I refused to remove my lettering and refused to move my truck 100' from the street (another requirement.) HA! The rest of the code is just as lame.
The first thing I did was letter real big on the rear glass of my canopy "When signs are outlawed...only outlaws will have signs!" Next I called the newspaper. They did an article about the whole code. Seems that a lot of people are fed up with this code and have started a movement against the county...refusals and lawsuits. Now the county planning has started to retaliate. The battle lines have been drawn on both sides...we will see who wins.
Sometimes you just have to put your back against the wall, cover your sides, and "Lock and Load!"
I will NEVER remove my lettering on my truck...I can't abide gross stupidity from government. This whole mess was started by a Junior Planner in the basemant of the courthouse...now he is a Senior Planner with an office on the top floor with a view and a nice fat raise! Sorry pal...not on the backs of the working people that you are supposed to be working FOR!
OK..Jackson...calm down and breath Damn..this stuff really ****es me off.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Prohibited Signs. It shall be unlawfull to erect, cause to be erected, maintained, any sign not expressly authorized by, or exempted from this code. The following signs are expressly prohibited:
Signs mounted on a vehichle, be it a roof, hood, trunk, bed, and so on, where said sign is intended to attract or may distract the attention of mototist for the purpose of advertising a product, service, or the like, whether or not said vehichle is parked, or driven, excluding emergency vehichles, taxi cabs, and delivery vehichles, where a roof mounted sign does not exeed two square feet.
It goes on about some other stuff, but I think this is where he got the idea that a sign mounted to the bed was illeagal.
He had simular signs on his truck for 10 years and they were shot so I redid them, they were on for another 3-4 years when this new inspector got him. Here is this old immigrant surrounded by inspectors at the county building. He just gave up and we redid his truck on the doors and bed sides. I agree that the press should have been called, there was some other people fighting this inspector about some other issues through the press and they won.
.
[ May 03, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Isn't the vehicle in question, used to deliver furniture, there-fore duely noted as a professional delivery vehicle, which in your last post, paragraph 3, states that it is there-by excluded from the original law stated above in paragraph 2?
If not, please excuse my outburst, as it was soley intended to help your case and catch the suit with his tie on crooked.
[ May 03, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]
posted
Linda, you are right, He was using the truck to pick-up and deliver furniture. So it is a delivery vehicle. He also used the sign and it's frame to tie up furniture.
I think he should put the signs back on and fight it. The inspector never did red tag him.
It just ****es me off that these inspectors are such jerks.
I'm thinking of moving my shop to Lee County, just north of were I live.
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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There is nothing for him to fight, he was well within the law, (snicker-snicker).
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?
PS - Can you work the words "Delivery Service Available" or "Delivery Vehicle" on the truck? Make sure your buddy has a copy of the "law" in his glove box and he should be right as rain!
[ May 03, 2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]
posted
I seem to have spent a lot of time fighting City Hall, I'm still of the opinion that it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I have to say that I enjoy fighting with the town, it keeps our relationship interesting. They seem to enjoy the game as well.
I would have ignored this a_hole and looked forward to the fight!
posted
Here's my view of the situation, even though I know why Emilio changed heart about it. In '98 while coming from Key West, I took the 41 from Miami, on my way to meet Tom at Sign Craft magazine in Ft Myers. Now understand I don't know anything about Florida, but I do know a "ritzy city" when I see one, Naples is one of those type of cities. I liked what I saw there, all those fancy homes, boats and yachts. It's a high class place. Being of ethic background like Emilio, not that I agree to what he did nor that's what I would have done (I would have went the Cam, Rick Sacks route) but I can see why he did. It's all about color of the skin, they see Emilio like someone less than. He didn't want to make any waves, just let it go without any battle, because he knows somewhere along the line they will make his life miserable and at his age he doesn't want to go thru that. BUT if he knows someone like you Robert and a few other higher up people then he should go for one good battle before he goes down for the count. Tell him with a famous name like "Emilo" (Emilo Zapata, said he would rather die on his feet then live on his knees) so if he has to go down, then go down in style and dignity!
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Sorry Cisco, I doubt race has anything to do with the situation. If it does than I am being discrimated by the sign inspectors all the time in my area.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I think that you or he should fight this whether or not you are of any ethnic background. I don't know your particular area or the thought process there, but none of that crap should play into this at all. It seems to me that this is a case of bad interpretation of this code by someone a little over zealous.
The way it was worded - what you posted here - is pretty specific and sadly vague at the same time. Into this comes this guy with HIS interpretation. Are you telling me that anyone else with truck lettering or any type of vehicle advertising is subject to this type of scrutiny?
I am currently working on writing a code for our city with a committee appointed by our former mayor. The "former" selected very carefully this group and stacked it out of the favor of the business community by a 4 to 3 margin. Every meeting occurs during business hours. The three business people (me included) must leave work or close doors to attend these meetings. The others are 2 city staff, 1 retired guy and a bank vice president whose family has been in the community since dirt was invented. When everyone is there, the business side can be outvoted... but the odds are that not all will attend - only enough for a quorum - and that usually stacks it out of our favor as well. I'm not giving up hope.
One thing I am trying to do is to be very careful how the text reads so that crap like this does not happen. The other thing that I am insistent upon is the availability of a way for anything that does not comply with the code to be reviewed by the planning commission and or the city council. I do not want the "code" to be the final word and I don't want whoever the "inspector" is to have the final word either.
Most of this stuff is simply common sense things like does the sign obstruct visibility... is it mounted in a way that could cause injury or an unsafe situation...
Anyway, IF you are interested in changing this situation, find out how and who to talk to. It will probably take a long time, perhaps months or years and the question is... do you have the guts to stick it out and get it done?
Start studying. MUCH MUCH info on the web. Thanks to Glenn Taylor for forwarding me many links. Look for codes that deal with this and find one that has language closer to something you all can live with.
MY interpretation of yours is that they were trying to eliminate those that go around the law where billboards are prohibited and someone mounts a sign to an old trailer or something. I made a small billboard for a guy one time who mounted it to a busted running gear with flat tires that he bought for $200.00. Within code guidelines and much cheaper than permit fees in that situation. I saw a Chevy trailblazer in Madison the other day that had a "pop-up" sign on the roof. Only used (apparently) when parked along the street. Measured about 4 - 5 sq. ft.
I don't think your guy falls into the "trying to get away with something" group.
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT.
By the way, I made reference to Madison above. I'm not sure what the code is up there, but as many of you know they say that Madison is so many square miles surrounded by reality... or something like that. Just wanted to let you all know that I live in the real world.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I noticed that the sign code specified that the prohibited signage was "intended" to attract attention or distract. Obviously nobody would ever consider doing such a thing, the purpose of the signs involved was merely to identify the vehicle ( most motor vehicle codes require identification of commercial vehicles!) in an attractive and appropriate manner for the business.
-------------------- Bob Sheers 24 Hour Services Columbia, MD USA 410-995-3655 bob@go-to-airport.com Posts: 140 | From: Columbia, MD, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
CHANGE ALL TAIL-LIGHTS TO BRIGHT BLUE!!!!!!!
YOU SEE... YOU HEAR ... YOU FEEL..YOU HAVE A SENSE OF SMELL... THE BRAIN IS ALSO SENSUAL
WHY DO PEOPLE SURRENDER THEIR INTELLECT? THINK!
CAN YOU REASON CORRECTLY WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS FAULTY REASONING? I DON'T THINK SO
MAYBE THIS INSPECTOR IS A MEGALOMANIAC...
HE IS DEFINATELY PUSHING HIS INTERPRETATION TO ITS TECHNICAL LIMITS.
LIKE THE WAY COMPUTER PROGRAMS HAVE LOGIC(THE SCIENCE OF REASONING...ARTIFICIAL IN THIS CASE) SO DOES THE SIGN CODE...AT LEAST IT STARTED OUT WITH THIS IDEA IN MIND. HIS INTERPRETATION IS CHANGING "THE LOGIC" OF THE SIGN CODE AND MOST IMPORTANTLY ITS "PURPOSE", WHICH IS THE FIRST THING COMMUNICATED TO ITS READER... USUALLY MENTIONING SOME SUPPORT & COLLABORATION.
-------------------- james perkins boston, ma Posts: 38 | From: boston | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sign inspectors are some of my favorite people. Same with bureaucrats.
You just can't fall prey to their regulations and especially their interpretation of them. They can't regulate creative thinking, no matter how hard they try!
Some of my very best projects are the result of creative interpretation of regulations and following these same regulations 'to the letter'. And it's best done with a smile on your face.
I did an entrance portal to a tourist attraction a few years ago... we were limited to 28 square feet of sign. A rediculously small sign... especially on that cluttered and busy road. But rules are rules and this inspector wasn't about to change. But after asking the inspector if there were regulations concerning an entrance portal with no more than 28 square feet of signage he replied no. So I designed this wonderful castle-like tower with a small cartoon boat through it like two small balconies. The stern of a sailing ship was built into one side. And rockwork with a cartoon tree and even a waterfall into a pool which surrounded the structure. Two bridges connected the walkway which went through it. All landscaped of course. And the 28 square foot sign was over the door. I also wrote this cool legend of captain Coombs which told how the tower came to be. It stopped traffic dead and the owner was happy.
The inspector was mad as they come when he saw it... he 'thought' I was taking advantage of the regulations. I assured him I was doing my best to obey 'his' regulations. He had to sign it off.
I got a $60,000 job out of the deal. I also got to have a ton of fun. The owner got what she wanted... a landmark 'sign'. And the inspector got his 'rules' followed to the letter.
There is always a creative way to do business. Especially in the presense of over regulation.
I have two large current projects which fall into this category... and I have more than enough solutions to keep 'everybody' happy- especially the inspectors and rule makers.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey, I'd like to see a picture of that one! I'm assuming (and you know what happens when one assumes) that this did not have to go before any other committee like a planning commission since it was to fall within the guidelines of the code. My great fear would be that I would attempt to follow those rules in a manner like that only to have someone come and say that the structure that supported that sign was not in compliance and therefore the entire thing must come down.
When I get to that point I'll make a trip to see you so I can rub your head for good luck.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Well, I did a little checking around. If it were me, based on what I've found and know, I'd letter the truck any way, any size I want.
It has to do with the 14th Admendment (speaking to Due Process and Equal Protection.
Lets say that the city limits the size of the lettering on a truck, any truck, to 6 sq. ft. First, it must be enforcable, consistant and applied equally to all. In this case, I can't see how it can be done.
Lets say that Emillo lives Naples, FL., and his truck lettering comes out to 12sq.ft. The inspector tells him "no-no" and cites him. Into town comes a Ryder rental truck. We all know how large their lettering is. Now, Ryder has an office in town. This puts them under the same rules and regulations as Emillo. Do you think the inspector is going to cite Ryder? No. This violates the equal protection clause of the 14th Admentment (North Olmsted Chamber of Commerce v. City of North Olmsted, 86 F.Supp2d 744 (N.D. Ohio 2000)
The Naples ordinance also violates Due Process because of its vagueness. What defines "distracting to traffic"? Because its carved and gold-leafed? It would be up to the city to prove that it is.
KEV, Inc. v. Kitsap County, 793 F.2d 1053 (9th Cir. 1986(citing Grayned v. City of Rockford, 408 U.S. 108)
And, then there are First Admendment protections....
Bd. of Trustees of State Univ. of New York v. Fox, 492 U.S. 469 (1989)
City of Cincinnati v. Discovery Network, 507 US 410 @ 428-29 (1993)
Desert Outdoor Advertising, Inc. v. City of Moreno Valley, 103 F. 3d 814 (9th Cir. 1996)
Revisiting North Olmsted, supra. (i.e. - 3. The permitting scheme gave unfettered discretion to the permitting official, constituting an impermissible system of prior restraint)
I went through Naples' code tonight. There is nothing that that gives them the authority to do what the inspector did if they cited Sec. 106-37. Prohibited signs;
(9) Signs on vehicles, either attached to or painted on vehicles of any type which are parked in close proximity to the business being advertised and are parked in such a way to advertise such business to the passing motorist or pedestrian.
Robert, Is there any way to get a copy of the council meeting minutes pertaining to this matter? Either there is more to the story or the inspector and the council greatly exceeded their authority and can be sued.
posted
Glenn, You are good! And knowlageable as well! There weren't any minutes or a meeting or anything. This inspector just says Emillio can't have his signs on the bed of his truck. I tell him to protest to higher ups at the county and they agree with Gary Dantini, the inspector.
I think the spirit of the code was to stop buisnesses from basicly building a sign (like a mini billboard) and mounting it to their vehicles to attract attention. But codes can be vauge and misinterpeted. We have a ton of big box trucks here that are basicly billboards now, and the county can't do anyting about them.
Like that code you quoted: Prohibited Signs; "Vehicles that are lettered and parked in close proximity to the buisness being advertised" How can you not park your buisness vehichle near your buisness?
I think they write them vauge on purpose!
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Well, if it were me, I'd letter the truck any way I wanted and I'd let them take me to court. In the mean time, I'd recommend contacting John Johnson of the ISA. His e-mail address is John.Johnson@signs.org. He is the president and CEO of the ISA. He should be able to direct you to or put you in contact with someone who can help.
As I read the ordinance, their intention is to prevent business from using their vehicles as a substitute for freestanding signs in front of the respective businesses. My own town is beginning to see the same as a problem. One business owns a tiny piece of property across town. They had their broken down truck parked there and lettered up. They are using it as a defacto billboard. A local mattress company bought a used UPS truck, lettered it and parks it at the entrance of the shopping center. It just sits there day after day. As the sign ordinances are written here, there is nothing the City can do - yet. Abuses like these are what makes for the beginnings of bad legislation.
With reference to what Cisco said, color can be a factor. Officials know that the older generation will just bow and step away, especially when the person is an immigrant. Most immigrants don't want to make waves. However, with the changes in attitudes over the last few years, the odds of him winning his case are greatly improved. In fact, being an immigrant or of a minority class may be beneficial.
In any case, Robert, your situation can and should be fought.
[ May 07, 2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Wow I thought this was a joke when I first read it, you mean you guys in the US can't letter vehicles how you want, AMAZING!, here the local concil authorities have rules and regs. for building signs and for some you need planning permission but they have no rights whatsoever over vehicle signage, unless its really huge and would obstruct traffic but thats the police's jurisidiction. If that happened here I think my first reaction would be to tell the paper shuffler to go forth and multiply and give him a parting gift of my size 10 boot up his backside. I don't believe it so much for the land of the free!
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Damn..this stuff really ****es me off. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
They seem to enjoy the game as well.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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