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Hi there guys. I recently met this guy that works for a local paper. The dude is an awesome designer / illustrator, & doesnt seem to be a crook. I understand web design is quite pricy & he's offered to do a site with flash & all the works for 200 bucks & a $10 hosting fee, if I let him put up a banner on my site. I told him I didn't like the banner idea, but I wouldnt mind him doing something like in Janette's site http://www.janettebalogh.com/webdesign.htm . He loved the idea so I think we can work something out. Now I ask youse, letterheads, is this too good to be true? Should I go for it? The guy's site is http://www.anc-designs.com , which is still under construction.
Thanks!
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I would ask for a "trial period". I would shy away from lengthy contracts like a year or more. Then, evaluate it for your particular requirements. I paid $500.00 for my website and hosting is $30.00 a month without banners and has been VERY productive the last three weeks!!
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 816 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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$200? You surely must mean per hour, not per site, unless the currency in PR has a vastly different conversion rate that here in the states.
Most sites we do average $100 - $125 per hour, with the majority of our sites coming in around $3000+.
Maybe I'm missing something?
Generally, you get what you pay for. I can't imagine anything good coming from $200. BUt if it does come out good, maybe I'll sub all my web work to him and pocket the difference.
A great site like Netties, minimum should sell for 5 grand, probably closer to 7500.
His site, by the way, was just an opening page? I didnt see anything beyond that.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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This person may very well have good design skills, we have no way of knowing whether or not he does until we see his work. The only red flag that I saw was that the spinning logo on his page was quite large in file size (74k). This may or may not be a big deal, but it leads me to believe that perhaps he doesn't know how to optimize images, which is one of the most basic tasks you must accomplish when putting a site together. Otherwise, the site will load slowly (which was the case when I loaded that page, even on cable).
But maybe it's no big deal, he could be very good.
-shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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No Dan, for site, not hour. See, I think he feels people know me more than him, & I guess I could serve as a salesperson (Since I'm such a good bullsh---er). That's what I think, anyway. Yes, his site is still under construction as I mentioned before. Our currency is dead Washingtons, by the way.
John, If its not to much, may I ask you which method you consider it best to promote a site?
Thanks for the detail there, Shane.
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Well, for $200 you can't beat it considering you'd blow more than that dollar amount worth of your time trying to get something right..
On the other hand, what exactly do you get for $200? Is it just an opening splash page? Is it 5 pages with minimal graphics? Is it nothing more than a template layout designed in Dreamweaver that you then use to fill in all the content?
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Felix, it could be that he needs some sites he can point to for his portfolio, so he is offering you a loss leader deal. More likely he is new and does not understand his costs. If this is the case, he will either lose interest when he gets bogged down, or else he will come back for more money.
Who actually is going to host the site for $10? If he has his own server with something less than a T1, you aren't going to get very good service.
I tried to go to his site just now and could not get in.
If you go with him, keep control of your dowmain name so you can pull the plug and redirect your domain name if the worst case happens.
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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My web hosting service charges $25 a month to host and nothing to design since I sent them the design done in Coreldraw, nothing fancy, three pages, a homepage and two portfolio pages. If you have the bucks let Dan Antonelli or Janette design it and find a cheap hosting service. Or try this guy and see if you like his stuff.
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Dan, Wow.....We can't get over about 100.00 per page for a site, with average to heavy graphics. A 10 page site running about 1000.00. Average smaller sites at 300 to 500. It is very hard to compete even with these prices.... Felix, I would suspect he is a little hungry and is giving you a good deal on maybe 4 to 6 page spread, and wants to use it as a sample to sell from. Seems very fair to me.....You can also FTP your photos to that site, so make sure you have access to it to make changes or upload photos you want to show on the BB. You should be getting about 25 to 30 meg of space for 25.00 so you should have plenty of space left. You can also create folders which can serve as a personal page also. Like www.felix.com/fishing tips which would be a link from your domain, but housed in your domain at no extra cost. It is very easy.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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If you guys are paying $25-$30 a month for domain hosting, your paying too much. I pay $96 a year for something like 50 megs of space, but I see better deals than that all the time. Here's one I've been eyeing for a while.
posted
Beware of bargain or cheap hosting.. it's just like signs and anything else.. if it's cheap, it's lacking something somewhere..
A cheap host is likely to have all kinds of issues with downtime or lousy tech support when you need it most.
If all you need a site for is hosting pictures you can do it with a free host.
If you just need a few pages and dont mind occassional downtime, a cheap host is OK..
But if you have a site like mine which has 300 HTML pages, thousands of images, 2,000 unique visitors PER DAY and an average monthly bandwidth usage of 2 Gigabytes, $20/month is a damn good buy for a server with absolutely NO downtime ever.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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i just got a quote for $250 bux including 5 pages. with some flash if i want..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I try not to get too caught up in page count pricing. To me, that commodicizes the creative process, and good design is not something that can be store-bought, or looked at like its straight web typesetting.
You're paying for my experience in helping effectively market and promote businesses via the web. A lot of people can produce sites - buts its rare to find designers who design sites that meet advertising and marketing objectives. Thats the real difference.
Plus, finding a designer that can combine traditional advertising methods via print collateral and coincide the same corporate identity on their web presense is even more difficult.
If the client doesnt need the marketing expertise (nor can afford to pay for it) that goes behind good web design, than it quickly becomes apparent that we're not a good match. But I'm not going to charge less because they're not using me to my fullest capacity. Same as an architect - design an outhouse or dreamhouse - its still the same creative process (and hourly rate).
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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might warrant those prices. I would imagine that Felix, and most single sign companies are not looking for a Sears & Roebuck catalog. The fact that a web page may be built for 300.00 to 1000.00 doesn't at all mean that it is poorly designed. If you, I or anyone asked 3000.00 for a webpage short of the link above it these parts, we had better prepare for our new career as comedians, because the laughter would never stop. I'm happy for you if you can get those prices, but find them a little misleading to Felix from PR. I'm pretty sure also that no one on this BB has paid 3000.00 (U.S.), or even close to that for a web page, but I could be very wrong, as I am from a fairly conservative part of the country....By the way, I would prefer that you were correct, although I have invested in two of the world's top companies that did high tech page marketing and they are both about bankrupt. Again, I wish you were correct, Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hiya Gang, Web "designers" are a dime a dozen around here. $200 for a 5 page site with some flash is about average. As others mentioned, you get what you pay for. Most of these $200 "designers" are using "clip-art" for building websites. All they do is fill in the blanks with your art and text and send it to a server. This same "clip-art" disk supplier also provides the designer with the ability to sell space on an associated server. The designer then collects royalties from your monthly fee you pay that host. It's not a bad deal if you want something cheap & cookie cutter. But if you want a site to reflect your companies image and style, you're better off making the investment. Havin' fun, Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sounds like web designers are right in line with the sign business. With us, anyone with a couple of bucks can buy a plotter and software and call himself a sign maker. Brings down the level and pricing for a lot of the business.
Now we have these web designers selling sites for $200. Let them kill themselves and quit out of frustration. I believe Dan will still be around, going strong and making money. Same as our biz.
With the little experience I have in that field, those low prices are nuts.
What's with this guy's site not even developed yet anyways?
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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David Wright, it's the same for any industry but yes, you are right. Web Designers are a dime a dozen just like Graphic Designers are (the same could be said about signmaker as well). However, just like the Sign Industry and Graphic Design Industry, there are Web Designers that have a shred of self respect and charge a very deserving rate.
Most of the people that get into web design do so because they have the technical skills and they realize they can make a ton of money without having to keep inventories of materials and supplies.
Of course there are also the "web designers" (and I use that term loosely) that are much like some signmakers, graphic designers, artists, etc. that have absolutely no knowledge or just enough knowledge just to get by, and realize they dont have the complete set of skills so they whore themselves out to bring in more business.
Not to condemn the cheap-o web designers, it's a very competitive market and everyone has to start somewhere, so if they have to whore-out $200 websites to get on their feet so they can start bringing in $10,000 websites, so be it. The IT market is saturated now, the number of IT graduates far exceeds the IT jobs that are available. I have a buddy that moved from St Louis, MO to be with his family in Seattle. He's an IT guy that now has to move back to St Louis because there are so many jobless IT Grads in Seattle that they're lucky to get jobs starting them off at $8/hour. This is a far cry from a few years ago when an IT Grad was guaranteed to start at $60,000/year!
Jack, my website has been up and running full tilt for three years and although I have been building it myself the whole time I do spend over $25,000 per year of my own time developing it. This averages out to 5 hours per week. I dont believe a website is ever really considered finished, nor should it be. If it isnt always being updated, it's not bringing in money.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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<I do spend over $25,000 per year of my own time developing it. This averages out to 5 hours per week.>
That's a hundred per hour Mike?... on a constant, but reasonable work schedule? Not impossible, but a little unreal for webpage building. I'm not saying that you don't do that, but this conversation wasn't really about that. Would Felix be better off going for a $50,000 page, and getting you to work on it for maybe say 10 hours per week?
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by bronzeo: <I do spend over $25,000 per year of my own time developing it. This averages out to 5 hours per week.>
That's a hundred per hour Mike?... on a constant, but reasonable work schedule? Not impossible, but a little unreal for webpage building. I'm not saying that you don't do that, but this conversation wasn't really about that. Would Felix be better off going for a $50,000 page, and getting you to work on it for maybe say 10 hours per week?
Jack, yes that's $100 per hour.
Build a cheap website and you'll get about the same amount of work from it that was put into it.. Put alot of time, effort and money into a website and that's exactly what you get out of it.
That hourly PROGRAMMING rate is the difference between someone who has spent countless hours and dollars in training to do this line of work, and someone that thinks "Hey, I think I'll just get into making web pages even though I dont have any extensive knowledge of building a web site nor any idea how to market or promote the site, let alone market the products the site is advertising."
Somebody that's been through the training respects the demanding work and is more than willing to charge what they want or need despite what the local market can dictate.
The "Local Market Excuse" can only go so far here, and it doesnt apply to web sites or ecommerce. When a business goes online they have now blown apart their local market limitations. They no longer have to think "Gee, I wish I could get what this is worth, but I cant get it in this town." Now you can sell it online, not only for what you think it's worth, but you could also sell it for east coast rates if you want!
Here's how this works... Small town shop "A" pays a local yokel $200 to develop a simple 5 page website. It attracts other local yokels from that same town because it looks cheap like everything else in that town, and the customers expect cheap. Shop "B" from that same town pays either a local professional or an out-of-town Pro $5,000 to develop a slick web site.. slick graphics, fast loading, clean look, eye catching, online ordering, online credit processing, consistent look amongst pages, no "under construction" pages, no dead links.. in other words, an extensive website with an obvious amount of work and attention to detail.. best of all, the pages are also optimized for search engines so they get hits from all over the place.. since their site looks slick, there's lots of sample images and products to choose from, customers are confident this company can do what they need..
Shop "A" has merely built a portfolio page.. it'll help sell local jobs, maybe a few out-of-towners will bite.. Shop "B" is ready for an online sales assault, and they will have enough work that they can turn down what they cannot handle or do not want. They are also no longer tied to their local market which means they can charge what they want for their work. They can sell to anyone in the country, or world for that matter. Someone somewhere has the money for their product and is more than willing to let loose of it because of three simple reasons - 1.)They cannot get it locally, online is their only choice. 2.)It's apparent the company can sell or produce what the customer needs or wants, "IF" is no issue. 3.)It's easier to contact someone via email than it is to drive to someone's shop or arrange appointments, especially if the shop is a few hours away.
Would Felix be better off spending high dollar on his site? That depends what he really wants. A truly effective website will yeild returns MUCH greater than the design fee very quickly and in that case, $3,000, $5,000, $10,000 is definitely worth it if Felix REALLY wants to sell products online. If Felix merely wants a few pages online to show off some of his work to help sell local jobs, that's exactly what he will get with $200. Maybe that's all he wants.
I put the time into my own site because it's WORTH EVERY PENNY. If I wasnt selling anything online I wouldnt put the time into it, but on the other hand if I hadnt put the time into it, I wouldnt be selling anything online.
I simply do not worry about the local market here, I dont have to. All my sales are online and I can charge what I like. If someone doesnt like a price, there's no haggling or baulking, they just move on elsewhere.. no hard feelings.. there's billions more customers where he came from and most of them probably dont have the same problem with the price.
Dont get too concerned with what "you could get in your town or market" with regards to web design fees. Yer not dealing with Joplin, MO or Puerto Rico anymore, you're dealing with the world. The source for funds is virtually unlimited now.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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There is a world of difference between folks who 'design' web sites. Some are technical geniuses... some are great graphic designers. Very seldom does this come in one package.
For the graphic design part I charge $100 per hour. If I work fast (and I think I do) and do eye catching original design this is good value for my customers. For the technical stuff (actually slicing up and posting the pages) I give it to my son-in-law... he knows the technical side of things and also is quick at what he does. He charges me $40 per hour.
Nettie and Dave are a good example of artistic and technical talent working together. The web sites they have designed show it too.
Dan Antonelli (and others here) are one of those rare folks who can do it all.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Let him have ago you haven't got much to loose.
I love what Dan, Nettie and Mark Fair do as regards webdesign, ands I'm sure it works wonders for those involved.
My website is crap and years out of date it was made in FP 98, I have had Dreamweaver/Fireworks here for a long time but never got around to doing things.
That said I have just made a little flash intro for the new site, and have some new ideas for the new layout.
I hate wading thru acres of text on any site, especially if I am looking at a site from a company that specialises in the kind of stuff we do.
I don't like small animated gifs, they remind me of the cheap fluorescent type signs you see in low price stores.
I think a site should have a little condensed info on the companies history....not your life story, focus on what you are best at, with some examples, and then archive galleries of lots of pics that they can look at if they wish.
When I redo my site, I will focus on what I do best but will continue to have pages of thumbnails of jobs, I feel potential customers like to see what YOU are capable of and not pages from a suppliers catalogue or whatever.
I have more work than I can cope with....and not all from my site!....but when people ask about what you can do...they get referred there and take it or leave it...like a handout..as so many here are online.
Let us know how you get on.
Flipping the coin I had a company come here last week to try and sell mr webdesign, they weren't cheap and there stuff is a little different...not sure if it was my thing though....check it out
Once to get into the site click on webdesign, then the rotating "E" at the top of the screen, then click on portfolio, then you get some cartoon images "The Spy Bar" click there, and then the instructions are in english, its one of Stockholms hottest nightclubs....for those that are into interactive sites....it will be fun I think!
Good luck
[ May 05, 2002, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: Henry Barker ]
posted
Mike,,,,,I guess it's all relative. You might be suprised at what I get for 25,000.00, or on the other hand you might trash it.......I'm from a generation that isn't into rap music, or those ugly little rice burners. You on the other hand might value them highly. That said, I find your work very professional (web site and all), Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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I guess it is what you need your website to do for you. I have no interest in mail order signage. An online porfolio piece works good for the majority that want only local business.
We are mailing brochures to prospective customers on a regular basis, and it has paid off very well in new orders. What more could I want?
Mike Pipes, it sounds as though you have found a good niche for yourself too.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Jack, I'm not thrilled with Rap music or rice burners either. Heavy Metal and minitrucks are more my style although what I call Heavy Metal is what most people nowadays would call classic rock.. Rush, AC/DC, RATT, KISS, etc. etc.
David, exactly.. It depends what the customer needs or wants, and what they can afford.. just like the sign biz, eh?
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Heavy Metal and minitrucks are more my style although what I call Heavy Metal is what most people nowadays would call classic rock.. Rush, AC/DC, RATT, KISS, etc. etc. 
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