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Steve, i knew that it had been quite awhile since this incident, i was just commenting on it with this post in mind....it wasnt a matter of opinion, it was the case of being basically called stupid for an answer she offered on someones post.... she's a sensitive woman and just didnt need the aggravation... you ever notice that most of the postings are from men....
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
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I’m curious to know just exactly who are these elitists in the line of fire here? Seems there are a lot of faceless folks being targeted. Sure makes it easier to talk down about “them” that way I suppose. Highschool revisited!
Let’s put a name and face on one shall we? I suspect at least one of the cross-hairs is bound to be intended for me, so I’ll put myself out there so some of you can get a better shot! Do I think this because I’m paranoid? No. But I’d be willing to bet afew others are pondering just which side of this line they’re on too. One of the drawbacks to the elusiveness of inuendos . Could it be we’ve all ridden that line?
In this instance, I’m basing my suspicions on a few observations.
One is that the example setting here is with the “Kenny Saga”, and the fact that I was the illedged “bad egg” in that scenario. I heard much of the same verbage Cheryl uses here directed towards me by her back them. Both publicly and privately. Her and I have our own versions with regards to that whole event, and although our views differ, it seems that only one of us has moved forward from that. I won’t be rehashing it. I clarified my intentions back then, offered apologies, acknowledged the difference with respect, and have moved on. Still I find myself linked to what some view as a "bad example".
I also feel like a possible target here because my views on the clipart thing differs from many. Though I realize it’s not a popular one, I’m just not out to win any popularity contests with it! While I can appreciate the list of analogies on this initial post with regards to being a helpful neighbor, filled with all the dynamics of being a giving person, I am tripped up by some manipulations of facts and some of the twisted concepts of later comments. For instance, (and I’ll intentionally use only myself as an example here) I’m not sure how a stance in viewing clip art as a chargable service coincides with the thinking that one’s too perfect to help someone out? And how then does that flow onto being an issue of NEVER asking for help, and using every opportunity to get pumped up? I’m not getting how encouraging others to value their time, their tools and themselves better leads to the thinking that one rates better than everyone else?
If I offer to pay someone on here for a piece of clip art, rather than expecting them to be my personal clip art library for free, especially when I’ll be finanacially compensated by my end customer … tell me, how is that not creating a winning respectful situation all the way around? Wow … how absolutely “holier than thou” of me! If someone would forego that offer for payment, I would still accept the help with gratitude … but I wouldn’t take it for granted by the EXPECTATION of something for nothing. That’s just MY way of respecting the privileges this BB offers. Be that right or wrong in the eyes of anyone else.
As much as I would like to chime in with many here on some of the positive points that I do agree exists in this thread, I’m all too aware of the backhanded way it carries it’s message. It conveys those points by putting someone down, and further more, it does it insidiously without accountability. Kinda takes on the scope of a linching. Pardon my elitism here, but I AM above that. I like to deal with things head on, with unbiased fairness, and if at all possible with those directly involved at the very time ”an issue” is happening.
I must admit that at first I was feeling quite gang-banged by this thread because of some of the correlations made, … and then it occurred to me that most everyone remarking here about “them” is referring to their own targetted nemesis, … each with their own personal stories and each involving their own sets of circumstances … be they fact or fiction. I wonder how easily we could make our judgements and assumptions of folks on here if we were to start naming names and placing faces on these “insensitive egomaniacs”. If we were to start having to examine our motives, delve into our perceptions, and, EGADS, BACK our claims with facts?
The positive intentions of this post, are certainly commendable … namely to keep newbies feeling welcomed so that they don’t leave, and to serve as a reminder to keep our egos and attitudes in check. As Steve points out … something we can ALL work on! I contend that none of us is above faltering here. Perhaps we could also work on not being oversensitive and defensive when others don’t share our viewpoints. To stay open to the possibility that we may be misreading someones intentions. To allow for the benefit of doubt when we are not given an answer with just the right measure of sugar coating. That measure being a coin toss, that can be determined by anything from the alignment of the moon to the time of day.
I empathize with the notion that some newbies may be afraid to ask questions here, but then I also clearly see how it pales in comparison to the growing list of those leary of replying with valid and level headed answers for fear of the twists it could take on.
I’ve come very close to adding myself to that list many times, be it for the simple fact that I just don’t place much importance on the misguided insinuations and perceptions of a few, and that it would take much more than that to keep from contributing to the many wonderful things this BB does stand for.
Lastly, I want to be sure to say that I'm not targeting anyone here with these comments ... what I'm trying to convey most of all is that none of us is perfect and yes, we could all help each other out in any number of ways. Let's start by cutting each other some slack.
Thanks a bunch for listening folks! Signed endearingly, Bambi
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
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How many remember the Blue Crab incedent a few years back? It was a similar issue where someone was looking for clipart of a Baltimore Blue Crab for who knows what. Big fuss over nothing as I recall but the BullBoard kept getting stronger. Let's get over this. Don't be like a real blue crab and pinch on to something and not let go.
Nettie, as I remember, yours was the first reply to the Kenny post, which is something that often occurs. Keep it up.
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Hey Bambi ! Don't worry about it. Apparently people will just see things differently no matter what. You made valid points and explained why. It made sense to me and I don't know how it could be misconstrued as being elitist. If it is then I'll be happy to join the crowd.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Nettie, (Bambi) By writing this post, my intention was not to single you or anyone out. If you are feeling alone, perhaps it is because the truth hurt? Only you know the answer to that.
I do realize we are at times taken entirely wrong. Some posts are meant to be humorous, and are not seen that way. To toss out names as you request: Mister Bruce Bowers is a great example. He is a dynamite person, but comes across wrong to new people every once in awhile. Joey Madden. We all know he is taken wrong by those who don't know him. But to know both Bruce and Joey, and yes you Nettie...we learn to read between the lines a bit IF we have been around awhile and accept and love the crazy different ways of each other. Sometimes answers are fully intended to come across in a totally smart a$$ tone. And to not know the personalities here (i.e. newbie) I would think alot of people just shake their heads and leave, never to be seen again. This to me is very sad. Perhaps we need to expand our neighborhood.
As far as putting a name 'shall we' to the face. I think you just did. You feel singled out. You feel sort of alone, because not all agreed with your way of thinking? How do you think a newbie feels when nobody replies?? or nobody says 'welcome!' Just curious. Do you think the feeling may be similar?
As far as the clipart issue....we all have our opinions. Just because we aren't all following in your thoughts, is it a 'poor me' reply? Boy talk about high school revisited! Your comments about 'the dynamics of being a giving person' 'using every opportunity to get pumped up' 'I'm not getting how encouraging others to value their time, their tools, and themselves better leads to value their time.' ....leads me to believe you are feeling as though your 'queen bee' status is being threatened. Well don't get your stinger out of wack Miss Nettie. I certainly don't want to be queen. I like it right where I am, thank you very much. I don't want to put myself up on some pedestal. It certainly is one long ass fall when you come crashing down.
Now lets talk about 'putting a value on our time' shall we? I value my time tremendously. I have many things going on, as we all do. As a matter of fact, I put such a high value on my time that I don't want to waste it 'charging for cleaning up a logo that has already BEEN produced' or some silly (you said so yourself) piece of clipart hardly worth all this nonsense. Is that what this is all about? Clipart. Logos. Corporate logos that have already been cleaned up. Why do it again, unless absolutely necessary? Heck, I would much rather spend my time designing a brand new logo from scratch! Or producing signs that make me much more money than charging a customer for the clean up when you could have it right there in front of you.
So no, this post was not all about you Nettie. This post was not to make you or anyone feel singled out. It is for all the little buggers out there......the ones afraid to post.....the ones who HAVE posted and felt the sting of the bees.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Wow, I knew I wasn’t making it on your christmas list anytime soon, but I had no idea I ruffled you to such a degree. Ooops!
When you take my own words in an effort to use them against me, please try to keep them in context. as I do take care in applying them with logic and reason. Both escape me in your reply.
Any more on this would just perpetuate the bickering I’d like to see less of on this BB. My previous reply pretty much covers it for me, and was rendered non-confrontationally.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
My name is a trademark of HotLines Incorporated and using it without my permission is in default of its copyright. Please reframe from mentioning anything relating to HotLines or Joey Madden or you will hear from my attorney, who by the way is a Jewish ball busting New Yawker and a supreme court judge.
Thank you!
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
Is that a supeona in your pocket or are you just glad to see us?
Have a great one, Bro!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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YO Joey and Bruce.....Well I am happy to see you...and I don't have a supeona in my pocket. (hope I didn't ruffle you guys as I did one Letterette)
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I do see your point Cheryl. But it also appears to me that the way this post is turning out, this is also the kind of posting that sends people running.
Everyone has their own individual posting style. I say respect ranks #1. With respect and carefully chosen words, offending could be a thing of the past.
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I agree Donna. And this didn't happen until 'somebody' felt nobody agreed with them. If the post was read how it was intended to come across instead of taken as targeting one person to pick on maybe it would not have turned out as it did. As I said before....it was intended for the Kenny's and Kennyette's who are no longer around.(using the name Kenny only as an example as he was just a figment of our imagination...remember) As far as turning into a post of disrespect...I will usually slam back if I am slammed. And it appears I was. I have never been one to run away with my tail between my legs.
enough said? I was simply trying to prove a point. A point that some were trying so hard to prove by implying some of us don't think 'highly' enough of ourself to charge for everything.
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what I am doing is all on my website. Right now I am working on 30 more commercial real estate signs. Kinda boring! But pays the bills...... Who's face did I slap? I thought I saw an exit a few times. So how you doing Stephen?
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Janet how long duz it take you to write one of those long post's I couldn't do it If I had a year.I would forget what I wanted to say not to mention all of my spelling mistakes and puncuation errors, guess that's why I got D's in english Don't mean any offense just thought It was cool the way you write.Don't really know what the beef is about but you were always someone with alot of common sense here you usally don't have negative things to say ,Cheryl I see you're point too the greats on this board scare alot of people away they don't even want to post, they call this the mean board on other sign sites. I think we can learn from everybody like why people with a year experience and no layout abilty are sucsessful in this buisness.They must be doing something right.
-------------------- Scott Moyer Canadensis, Pennsylvania 570-595-0310 Posts: 111 | From: Canadensis PA. USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hello- My name is Rob. I have been a pain in the ass for many years. It started as a small problem but then I couldn't stop. Now I find myself being a pain in the ass 99% of the time. I'm seeking help, trying to change. It is an up hill battle. If during my rehabilitation you happen to get in my cross hairs, please don't take it personal. I don't hate anyone. I have learned a great deal from this board and EVERYONE on it. I'm far from the best sign guy around. I have a thirst to learn all I can. I realize much of that can be learned here and at live meets. I would hope to meet many of you on this board someday. You will find that Yes, I'm a pain in the ass in person, but I mean well. I'm always willing to help if I can. If anything I have ever said on here ****ed anyone off then I'm sorry. I'm the type that shoots from the hip. Remember, we are a cross section of the world. This post is meant to be funny and calm some nerves here. I love this place and I'm thankful for all I have learnd here. Plus the clipart i won on the monthly draw....and no you can't have none, that would be illegal.
[ May 02, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Robert Larkham ]
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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ROB, I don't even know you, but....yes....you MUST be a pain in the ass to even want to add to this string! But Cheryl and I will agree, I'm SURE....THAT YOU SHOULDN'T CHANGE ONE BIT!
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I've followed this thread from the beginning. As we drove east today towards this weekend's Letterhead Meet, I kept thinking about. What is really going on here?
The original post talks about several unamed people that no longer post here. The example used is a guy called Kenny. Kenny turns out to be a phony character...a poor attempt at pulling the wool over all our eyes. Why? Who knows? All I know for sure is that these pranks are not intended to bring us closer here in Letterville.
At this point in time, this whole clipart debate is an non-issue here in Letterville. The current Law Of Letterville already prohibits the trading of copywritten materials. There are questions about what is legal, as well as morally correct. Until we get to the bottom of this, there is no way we are going to put Letterville into a position where we may become the target of some sort of lawsuit. More on this subject in future posts.
I'm more upset that 2 people I know and like personally are not getting along. The original post opened all our eyes and hopefully made us think about how we treat new visitors to Letterville. Now it's time to think about how we treat each other too. I'm talking about longtime website users.
Iknow personalities clash and we all have various views about almost everything. That's never going to change and I personally feel it would be a pretty boring world without debating tough issues that we face in our lives and business on a daily basis. We have to learn to conduct these debates with respect for each other, as well as our various points of view.
All of us are free to run our business and conduct our lives anyway we desire. the debate on what to charge for and what to give away is a personal one. We're all in different financial situations. If you are paying your bills and your family is fed, I see nothing wrong with giving friends, churches, and other special interest groups free work. The added bonus of generating excess funds is that you will never have any financial need to trade or copy trademarked material.
There is another view that is equally of value. Charge for every hour you work. When I worked for others, I never considered myself a bad guy for accepting a wage for every hour worked. I'm ashamed to say that I never returned any bonus, holiday pay or other benefits either. Why should it be any different when you are working for yourself?
My point of view is that both systems are valid. We visit a ton of shops and I see both business models used everyday. The only time I ever raise an eyebrow is if someone complains that they are working 12 hours a day, every weekend and are constantly broke. Then and only then, a suggestion might be made to start charging more and/or really take a look at who are your real friends. It may be time to reinvent your business ideas, but nobody has the right to impose their views on you either way. Read all points of view and decide what is right for you.
How do I wrap this up? For those that really desire to see Letterville grow, you need to think more about what you are typing and more important, what you are feeling when making your posts. Are you addressing the original post or question, or heading down some other road? Respect the Laws Of Letterville and treat others the way you want to be treated.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
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I am a hypocrate! When someone mentions a need for something and they live across the planet, I send it to them. If the shop across the corner asked for it and under bid me on the job, I would not share it. I am not consistant with the principals I speak. I'm guilty of doing what I feel like, for whom I feel like and when I feel like. Please forgive me.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Steve. ~~thank you~~ You are great with keeping this neighborhood under control. (kinda reminds me of Jerry Springers final thoughts) No wonder you are Mayor. You're good!
My last question on this post is: where is the damn social security office in this town? I just gotta change my middle name from 'trouble' to sumthin else. Maybe I will swing by the post office too. (I think I have an apology to mail)
Later. Cheryl no more trouble Nordby Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Cheryl- all of us won't agree all the time. it doesn't mean any are trouble makers. We just have different opinions and different ways of expressing them. No hard feelings. But I would love to see you and Jannette get along. I think you both have something to offer. Cheers!
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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Your comments about 'the dynamics of being a giving person' 'using every opportunity to get pumped up' 'I'm not getting how encouraging others to value their time, their tools, and themselves better leads to value their time.' ....leads me to believe you are feeling as though your 'queen bee' status is being threatened. Well don't get your stinger out of wack Miss Nettie. I certainly don't want to be queen. I like it right where I am, thank you very much. I don't want to put myself up on some pedestal. It certainly is one long ass fall when you come crashing down. 
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I'm far from the best sign guy around. I have a thirst to learn all I can. I realize much of that can be learned here and at live meets. I would hope to meet many of you on this board someday. You will find that Yes, I'm a pain in the ass in person, but I mean well. I'm always willing to help if I can. If anything I have ever said on here ****ed anyone off then I'm sorry. I'm the type that shoots from the hip. Remember, we are a cross section of the world. This post is meant to be funny and calm some nerves here. I love this place and I'm thankful for all I have learnd here. Plus the clipart i won on the monthly draw....and no you can't have none, that would be illegal.
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