posted
I hate to ask this but why do so many people take on the burden of obtaining usable art ? I guess if someone wants clean free artwork they should shop around to a few sign companies.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well Jim it's like this. Over a thirty day period we produce 7200 youth league uniforms. Many can be lettered with text only. Others require a logo. Usually a league representative gathers these logos. 80% are usable, most of the time the remainging logos can be scanned and converted without a lot of trouble. Once in a while they bring us something that is very time consuming.
We didn't take anything on. I was just hoping someone would help us out, without receiving business lessons or legal advice. Lord knows I have answered many logo requests by simply shooting someone an e-mail.
I think if you read back through my posts, I have never once requested anything.
-------------------- Danny Palmer Punta Gorda, Florida
Edge II - Embroidery & Digitizing Wholesale to the industry. Posts: 88 | From: Punta Gorda, Florida USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've got the OCA set at the shop Danny. Ill check tomorrow and if I've got it, I'll send it to you. Everybody needs a little help now and then.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
I'm getting more and more confused over this logo issue. My understanding is that trading logos is a no no due to copyright issues, yet there is hardly a week goes by that I don't see a new Corporate Trademark CD being advertised somewhere.
If you read the small print, they warn you that it is illegal to actually reproduce anything on the CD without the trademark owner's permission. There is another question raised. Can you reproduce the trademark legally if you do not charge for it?
We've always discouraged all of you from using this forum or Letterville to request materials that are copywritten. That's still our policy, but with more and more legit companies producing CD's of this type of material, without any fear of prosecution, it really makes one wonder what the law really says about trading corporate logos.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I say take the time and reproduce the artwork, hand them a $300 artwork bill.. if they dont like it, they can provide better artwork next time instead of a business card.
Play It Again is a big franchise, surely they already have vector artwork available to their franchisers to use just like they do all the other POP displays and such.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I have received the logo via e-mail. Thank you sender(s). There isn't a law in the land that prevents two people from trading logos. Using it without the expressed written consent of its owner is another story. Play It Again Sports gave a youth baseball team $195 for a team sponsorship. They told the League President, in order to receive $195, he must place their logo on the shirt. PIAS gave him a line art copy of the logo and a signed release. By the time it got into our hands, it was in poor shape.
To charge the youth league $300 bucks to reproduce it is ludicrous. It was a simple request.
My request has been filled. I will continue to help people out who place similar requests.
Thanks for your offer John!
-------------------- Danny Palmer Punta Gorda, Florida
Edge II - Embroidery & Digitizing Wholesale to the industry. Posts: 88 | From: Punta Gorda, Florida USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
From what i understand with logos, you would never get it for selling say a chevy symbol to a chevy dealer... but would/could be in trouble for selling them to private customers... same with say using a 7-11 logo for a store,,, etc. or oakley logo for a company that sells them, but different for a private person... do you get my drift!
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
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danny.. i understand your dilema...just did (seems like 37,000 corplaste signs for a ball park)and none of the people wanting their LOGOS on the sign...understand CAMERA READY ART. so asking for some logo that you are using in this context is ok buy me. i got logos up the ying yang, but still run into a few i dont have and i dont care how big a sign shop is..they WILL NOT always have it either.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I agree everybody needs help once in awhile. I really don't understand the big deal. If you have the logo....why not help. sorry.....but to charge a customer 300.00 is crazy. If I had it I would send it your way Danny.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I have run into some logo skirmishes as well lately. It seems that more and more customers are calling me and requesting that I send a copy of their logo up to the printer for business cards, etc. That raises the question of whether or not we designed the logo in the first place, and if we charged them for it in the first place.
I have tried to live by a policy of giving them a CD with their logos on it after they have paid me for designing the logo. Does this make it easy for them to take this CD to another customer? Of course it does, but if they have paid me, then I guess that is their option. On the other hand, once they own this CD, then they are responsible for it, and I don't have to send logos all over the city every time they need a newspaper ad, business card, shirt design, etc.
On the down side, we create "logos" every day we put a sign or lettering together. Even if it's canned text on a slant with a tiny blurb added, the customer may think this is the greatest thing ever, and now that is their logo! So, those are the tough ones to deal with. We never actually said we'd create a "logo" for them, but in doing our best to create a catchy sign, etc., we have created an image they may want to use over and over. So that's where some sort of fee must come in for transferring this logo. Are we better off to just send an e-mail to the print shop with this logo for a set fee to the customer, rather than hand this customer a disk with his logo? I think so... it's not like the printer will pass this logo on to the other sign shops in the area whereas your customer might be more inclined to.
Now, what's a fair "transfer" price? Keep in mind, these are our real customers without endless corporate pocketbooks that we will have to answer to when we tell them there will be a fee for transferring this logo... that's the fun part... keeping that balance of cost and service to our better customers. I find that it's easier to send a logo out for solid repeat customers than it is for the one-timers.
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
posted
Kurt...the simple answer to the problem with your good customers is : Give them a disk or C/D with thier logo on it and caution them that if they lose it, there is a charge to reproduce it or to send it to a printer!!!!!! Minimum charge is $25!!! For 1 time customers, the charge is whatever you charge as your minimum shop rate.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Let's say someone hands you a business card and wants their "logo" made into a sign from it..
It takes you 6 hours to reproduce the artwork and tweak it til it's "perfect", ie: no stray nodes, no jagged edges, every curve smooth as can be.. in other words, something a real professional would produce.
$300 is an unfair price??
I dont think so.
If they dont want to pay the artwork fees, they can provide you with artwork that's ready to go, whether it's camera ready or vector file.
If someone else has the logo and can provide it, kudos!
Sometimes I think some people put more effort into finding a source of ready-made vector art than it would take to actually reproduce it manually.. like if it takes a 2 hour search on the internet to find a specific logo when it would have only taken one hour to just draw it up themselves.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I still have the same question that I had. I wonder why so many in this trade take on the burden of obtaining logos free of charge. What other profession provides this kind of service ? There's nothing wrong with coming up with the logo if you charge for it, I was just wondering why I must compete with companies that do it for free. Don't they realize that they are screwing themselves and their profession in the long run by conditioning customers to expect a free service ?
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just a suggestion here: Why not contact "Play it again Sports" and get it right from the source??? If worse comes to worse...be honest and explain the situation as one professional business to another! Surely they would recognize the value of the advertising to them. Unless of course there is some other reason that we are not aware of going on to stop this process.
hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Personally, I have Never ever had any trouble usign a logo. I never heard fo anyone beign in hot water when using them correctly.
In fact, many companies have logo art available on thier websites to download. Most of them prefer to make them available to keep people from having to make one and modifying it. IE. Radioshack.. Go to thier site and u will find a place to get any of thier logos.
I used to work for General Foods wen they were 11th largest CO. in the world. That company never bothored anyone for using thier logos in the proper manner. In fact they would give qualified people ready art just for the asking... Oh yes, i forgot to mention. GF always added the standard not to be used and copyright blah blah ,,, after they had to sue to keep the name "SANKA" out of the public domain. That is why i beleive that every company now puts those disclaimers on their art.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I agree with Mike Pipes. Unless you are "donating" for the cause, you should charge the regular fee to vectorize the logo and move on.
I also agree with Pat. Play It Again Sports would probably supply the correct format if asked. After all, it's their image that would be hurt by it.
I would be afraid if I did it once (vectorize for free), then it would snowball into an annual "free vectorization" spectacular!
-------------------- Randy Graphic Details Promotional Merchandise Distributor South Glens Falls, NY Posts: 381 | From: South Glens Falls, NY USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Jim Upchurch wanted a response, so here it is:
Jim, yes, it is reasonable to charge for designing a new logo and for "vectorizing" an existing one.
the issue here is that the logo for "Play It Again Sports" (a national franchise or chain) is already designed, and already vectorized. Dan Palmer's original post is just for asking for somebody who already has that logo.
Yes, Palmer could contact Play It Again Sports, but maybe they were closed, or its the weekend and they aren't available.
and Steve Shortread you should know better by now-- this is not a "copyright " issue -- it is a TRADEMARK issue. as long as Dan Palmer is using the "business' mark" (the logo) in support of the mark's owner, there is no problem. those people who offer CDs full of hundreds (or thousands) or national and international logos do not own any special license to those logos and they cannot place any restrictions on the use of those logos. they merely collect the logos and sell the collection to save people like Dan the trouble of askind people like us if we happen to have the logo handy. Trademarked corporate logos are not "clip-art". Clip art is little drawings and those items are not trademarked -- they are copyrighted. Trading clipart might be a copyright violation. Trading fonts might be a copyright violation (depending on the font).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
My guess is we all have asked for or needed a logo from time to time. If you are making a 100.00 small sign with the Jack in the Box logo needed on it (as an example)....I doubt very much if you would get away with charging your customer 300.00 for a clean up fee. gimme a break! The smart thing would be to get the logo somewhere else.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
A long time ago someone posted a link to a russian website that contains a database of searchable vectorized logos. It's very usefull, and best of all FREE.
We have it on our website as a link, so here it is. Free Vector Logos I don't think there are any copyright or trademark issues as long as you are using the material to promote those businesses and their franchises. Now reproducing a "Harley Davidson" logo and selling it as merchandise to the public is very different than reproducing that same logo to make sinage for the local Harley Davidson dealership.
[ April 29, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Scooter, I don't think you are quite following me. Many shops, mostly new ones, are providing the vectored logos (existing) for the customer to get the job. They then fall back on this group and others to enable that free service.
I don't see anything wrong with going through legal channels to get it, my problem is that customers are going expect this service for free thanks to the poor businessmen that do it. Thanks.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Mr. Upchurch....YOU are the one not following the thread! Danny Palmer has never asked for a logo before! This is not the usual case where someone is able to spend the time to scan and fix a logo! It is for a little kid's team!
Many shops have c/d's full of logos, and if it helps make a sale, nothing wrong with that! If scanning and cleanup is required, they charge for it, if the customer can't, or won't, provide "camera ready art"!
I also agree that when someone is provided camera ready art, and whines for vector version on the BB, then it is time to ignore him/her!!!! If you are going to be a professional, time to learn to use Core Trace, Streamline, or other program to do it!
Any company that jealously guards it's logo, WILL provide camera ready art or disks for sign and graphic work to legitament users!!! The others...I don't worry about!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cheryl, well a Jack in the Box logo wouldnt require a $300 artwork fee, it's a simple logo.. Although it's not as if they couldnt afford the fee, they make more profit from soda in a single day than the average small sign shop makes in a year.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Mr. Allen, please read more carefully. The thread did take a different turn but I was addressing my original question, the second post in the thread.
What difference does it make if its for a kid's team, nun's team or a team for wayward retired sailors ? If it's a donation on the signmaker's part, that's a little too much like offering a 50 dollar pledge to a cause and asking for donations to cover your bases.
[ April 29, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Jim Upchurch ]
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Your point is not lost on me. I follow your thinking, and agree with you on it.
My answer to your question as to why others want to provide this service for free is "beats me!" and I do follow that with a "shame on them". I respect my own time, and charge accordingly for it. That includes the time it takes to attain a clean logo for my customer. I share your wish that others would also, with the understanding of the reasoning behind it.
Along this same vane, I also respect the time and efforts of others. Which is yet another reason I breathe a large sigh of hesitatation when it comes to using this forum with expectations of getting anything other than information for free. Especially if it's something I'll turn around and charge a customer for.
The lingistics of whether that's right or wrong in the eyes of others doesn't concern me. It's what feels right for me.
Different strokes for different folks. Janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Things have changed a lot since they dropped a computer driven world into the paint bucket, eh?
In other words, the rules have changed a bit since we have to protect ourselves from each other on a high-tech-global, no-holes-barred forum.
It catches my breath too Nettie.
Too many folks have had to make due while their lively-hood flew to a screeching halt. I'm one of them. There has been a lot of misunderstandings errupt. We are still family and friends...we sleep on the same planet. Mi casa es su casa...AND...your environment influences mine as well.
I would like to think, no matter how old and eccentric I get, I could dance through here blind-folded. (No enemies) I'll try not to overstep my boundries here, and ask that my children have safe passage here too...as they have grown up with you.
Steve, sounds like culture shock in Letterville. We have the Old Ways and the New Ways. Don't get your britches caught on the fence. My hat's off to you for trying to blend it with love and accountability.
Barb,
Hay Gal! How's your day going? Yer prolly sitting down to dinner right now, so just imagine me waving like I do when I find you at a Letterhead meet. You and Steve have indirectly rocked my world. Thanks for everything.
posted
I don't think that the thread started out as a request to have someone on this board design a logo for free, just looking for some ready made logo thats allready been given to him, long ago.
about the topic of designing a logo for free, its a waste of time to argue it on this site, because 90% of you all are hardend professionals with a great sense of respect for the trade that we so glady live that already know and understand about the value of our services
Here Mag signs $40 here MDO $150 oh and they love HELVETICA and BRUSH, its seams the only font these people have ever seen, and they stretch it to the borders. If I gave a customer a $300 bill for designing his logo there are 9 shops in this town of 12K, that he would go to as he laughed at my price. if I write "Copyrighted" on the proof, or tell them they cant take this to another sign shop, they are complaining "Its my name, why not I own it"
Now for the real topic Come on lets post some realy educational stuff, I wanna see how to's, pricing, paints I use stuff. I wanna see your work, that is why I come here as well as the fact your all nice people and I enjoy talking with you.
-------------------- Benji McEntire Harrison Graphics/Signs of America Harrison, Arkansas 72601 signmaker@cox.com Posts: 70 | From: Harrison, Arkansas | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Thanks Jeff Bailey! It is refreshing to see someone give help without the snobbery that is occasionally seen here.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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jim you never done any ballpark signs ...have you?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You talk about some serious leaps in logic! From asking for a pre-canned corporate logo, I have become a software pirate, clipart thief, poor businessman, of questionable moral character, should hang my head in shame, contributor to the deterioration of the "pure" sign industry.....and so on.
Of course we charged for the artwork! It was a packaged deal. Without dissecting our whole contract, they are charged for what we describe as level I, level II or level III work. This person was going to get by with Level I because he took the time to pick up art work at PIAS. Unfortunately, not everyone knows how to handle artwork, so he promptly folded it...twice...and put it in his shirt pocket.
All of their artwork was in a large envelope. I found it on Saturday. I first checked my three corporate logo collections which were bought and paid for. I then went to the four logo sites on the net. I then attempted a scan. Next I called the local PIAS and asked the young lady if it may be available on disk. What logo? What is a disk?
So I decided to set the sign industry back 45 years and break 12 fictitious laws by asking a letterhead for some help.
Am I surprised at the response and admonishment? Not at all. Is my spirit broken and faith in humanity destroyed? Not at all. I thank the supporters, I thank those who sent me the logo. I respect the opinions of all others, in this particular instance your suppositions are just misplaced.
I spent 15 years as a Police Officer. I am used to seeing my name plastered everywhere. I am used to at least half of the people at any given venue not wanting me around.
Am I a good businessman? Am I of good moral fiber? I certainly hope so. Only my customers, peers, employees, franchisees etc. can answer that objectively. Am I a pirate or thief? Certainly not.
Would I ever ask for help here again? Yep! And I will continue to try to help someone every single day of my life.
-------------------- Danny Palmer Punta Gorda, Florida
Edge II - Embroidery & Digitizing Wholesale to the industry. Posts: 88 | From: Punta Gorda, Florida USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Danny....it's really about...can you sleep well evey night!
I was brought up with the following: 1..Don't steal 2. Don't lie 3. Help others in need. 4. THINK before you do something
Borrowing a logo, for a legitament job = OK!
Selling copies of copytright stuff = NOT OK!
On the other hand, this BB has some people that are so busy picking the fly $hit out of the pepper, they jump on everything in rightous indignation! Listen to people like Timi, Nettie, Victor, and the real Letterheads...and ignore the blowhards!
Just my $1.97 worth!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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