I work with the two local sign shops in the area and we try to keep our pricing about the same so as to not confuse the customers when they price around. I have shop that discounts badly and makes the rest of look like we're trying to cheat them. I bid a 54"x54" two color window job extra text with estimate. Came out to 118.OO with my overhead. This man does two windows for the same pice. I'd like to call this guy, but he'd probably just hang up on me. What would/do you do? (Just venting from "Sign People" that don't seem to see the importance of what we do)
See 'ya
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
i PAINT on windows and i do a 4' x 5' panel for $80 and 2 that size is $125.00......so yours is a 4.5'x 4.5' which is 20 sq.ft. @ $5 a sq. ft. is $100.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Im having a similar problem you can read about it in the design cost workshop not sure if that was the right place to post it though.
the guy im having problems with probably bought a $3000 plotter works out of his house and now thinks he has his own business. not that thats a bad thing except for the fact that he's undercuting everybody else that is trying to make an honest living at this. I know I cant afford to cut my prices in half, it just irratates me.
Hopefully these people will realize they are not making any money and move on to something else.
posted
There is a big difference between Home based and Store front on Main Street. One has a much bigger nut to crack. Neither is wrong. If someone is undercutting you to steal business then he is a scumbag. If he is cheaper and is making a living then that is his business. It seems you can't wave a dead cat without hitting a dozen sign people within a short distance these days. We all have to compete. We all have to make a living. If someone can't compete then I don't know what to tell them. This is an age old story. There will always be someone willing to work cheaper. Stick to your guns. Put out quality, give service and do you best. That's all you can hope for.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Before you punch him out, talk to him. In a non judgemental way, if he is open to a conversation from a competitor, tell him that long before he came along, whoever is new guy will usually lowball a little to jump start their business.
Of course when business picks up, even if as a home-based guy his overhead will stay low, he WILL want to raise his own prices somewhat. History repeats itself & that is in the cards, but the lower he is now the harder it will be to command a fair price later. If he is lowballing by working half price you could make a friendly observation that he is leaving a lot of money on the table trying to be the low bid, & that not only will this water down the customers perception of the value of ALL of our products & services, but it is also a very foolish business decision.
Or don't tell him, & maybe he will lose his shirt & move on.
posted
Maybe he NEEDS the money more than you do. If he is trying to steal your customers,then.... the customer is not as loyal as we think they are. If your design qualities and superior materials doesn't outway the cost of the sign as valueble advertising. Then you need to educate your customers more throughly. Blaming others for what we are responsible for never has worked and never will. hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Like I said most of my clients don't have a problem with my prices and are happy with the work we do. I guess im more irratated with the cheap skate that comes into my shop wanting an exact price for something that is not even designed yet so he can run across town to compare my price with the other guy, not giving any consideration to quality, just price. I guess what sparked this whole thing for me is when a trucker came in to my shop about a month ago and wanted something designed for his truck. I should have known not to trust this guy because he was so preacupied with the price. I told him that the price all depends on the design. so i said id draw him up something and he could come back tommorow and id give him a few price options. So he came back and I showed him a few designs on the computer. He said he wanted to show them to his boss (here is the part im still kicking myself for) I printed the designs with my company title block around it, and along the bottom plain as day i wrote "all artwork is property of doyle sign and can not be reproduced without written conscent) did this stop the guy from stealing it? NO!! He took it to the other guy and changed the colors (for the worse, changed the main copy from white to dark purple on a dark grey truck, you cant even read it unless your 2 feet away) slapped it on his truck and has the nerve to drive it by my shop everyday. I dont know how a sign person could feel good about producing someone elses design, I know I would never do it. I'm considering legal action but I dont know if the time off work and the aggrevation of court is worth the $115 I was asking for the design. For now no artwork leaves my shop without a deposit. live and learn I guess
posted
With all do respect Mr. King,I have been in the sign business for 12 years now.So for I haven't seen any loyal customers.I to run out of my home and I for one will not give in on my price.People think because you hand letter that they are able to get a lower price on cumputer cut.Forget-it!!! I live in an area where there is a cutter every 3 blocks.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
doyle, i been at this full time since 1986, and was a part time sign painter since i was a kid....and this WILL NEVER CHANGE!!!!!! when i was in sarasota it was the "fanchise shops" popin up everywhere....had one owner call me a chew me out for puttin vinyl on HIS customers window....told me that was HIS CUSTOMER since he opened up there...i aske when was that? he said 91, and i said HE WAS MY CUSTOMER BEFORE YOU GOT HERE..A...HOLE!!! and hung up on him. so you see this guy will learn...as soon as he figures out he aint makin any money...he will stop the underpricin...go take a tia chi class....for relaxation..hehehehehe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
My advice, Since I am one of "those guys" you described, I am not trying to underprice anyone, I'm just trying to make a living.
I would love to know that I can charge more. Talk to him, I wish someone would tell me what to charge, that would make things much easier in my head!
Sometimes I have no idea, and the help of an expert would be great. I always end up feeling like I am charging too much, and some help justifing it would be great, not to mention some tips I might learn.
Just my two$.
Brian J. Caissie
-------------------- BRIAN CAISSIE
7 Dewey St. Unit 11 Natick, Ma 01760 Posts: 99 | From: Natick, Ma | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
My best advice to you is get the Estimate software. When you set it up it will "tell you" what to charge and if the customers bauck, you can tell yourself that's the price I have to have to keep the lights on and make a profit. Seems like it takes the burdon off my mind about making money.
Get a demo and try it for 30 days then buy it. After that get another 60 days to think about it. Can't beat a deal like that not to mention it's many other worths and the people are excellent to talk to and help you.
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now that I've clamed down I think I'll take the advice of the novice and call him. Brian reminded me of me a few years ago and I didn't mean any harm. I just didn't know any better. I thank you guys for the comments and I'll call him someday and see what happens. I did call the customer that had it done by him and they said "we couldn't pass up a deal like that" and that made me think that they were thinking "if he can do that cheap why can't you." Oh well, like Joe said it's been this way a long time and will stay this way a long time. The only way I got to know the other shops was talking to them so I should do the same with this one. Thanks Brian and try the Estimate Software.
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not to sound like a butthead but why do you care what "the other guy" is up to?
Is YOUR business failure HIS fault?? Nope. Is HIS business failure YOUR fault?? Nope.
I'm in "competition" with THOUSANDS of companies that produce custom graphics for trucks, cars, boats, etc. all online.. I'm not the cheapest nor am I the most expensive but that status doesnt matter to me. There's plenty of customers for everyone. I have my costs and profit margins I like to maintain and as long as I can do so, I dont care what anyone else is charging.
The fact that the other shop is lowballing doesnt make him a scumbag. Maybe he doesn't know what he's supposed to be charging? That wouldnt surprise me at all considering how many people who visit this site every day post questions like "what should I be charging for this sign?" - Apparently those people are scumbags too except they have access to this resource.
Maybe his lowball price is also reflected in his attitude towards customers or the quality (or lack thereof) of his work? If so, big deal. The customers that really care about service or attention to detail will learn soon enough who can provide it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
Living in a town of 2000 people is a little different than 40,000. I don't want to be know as the guy that is high as hell when compared to a low ball price. That's my biggest concern. Things spread fast around here and could give the wrong message about me. This guy has been in the business for a while as a quick stick type of operation, but in his defense he may not know either that he can and should charge more, so I'll call him sometime.
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
The bottom line is this. If two people produce the same exact sign with the same materials they may have to charge two different prices to make the same amount of money. One guy may have a store front that he pays $29 a square foot for,five employees, a boom truck, and an ex-wife. The other guy may work out of his basement and have little to no overhead. The guy with the over head needs to get more for the sign to make ends meet. It doesn't make the guy working out of his basement wrong. He profited the same amount and charged less. What one person gets in their town of fifty thousand people may be different than I get in my town of 1200. Too many factors play into pricing. Those little pricing guides are an average from across the country. Tough to go by sometimes. Figure out what you need to make for a living, factor in all your costs of doing business and keep plugging away. Don't worry about the next guy. I used to, but could give a rats ass about him anymore. I've been raising prices and I'm busier than I have ever been. Go figure.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
Old Paint...great story....you're dead on this time. I personally can't believe that the guy had the gonads to call you up and accuse you of stealing "his" customer, especially when you had been in business longer and had him for a customer first.
The bottom line without regard to reason is: A customer is a customer of whomever he wants to be, for whatever reason.
Stealing a guys design to price shop is pure criminal though! I can see you opening a can of WhupAss on him for that.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
how about subcontracting some 3-color car-mags from a company that has an EDGE, picking them up and paying for them, then when you go to deliver them to your customer, find out that the sub-company had looked them up and called them to tell them there car-mags were ready AND my wholesale price. Could have been a mistake, but still kinda sucks.
Also, priced a 3'x10' banner($5/sq. ft.=$150) to a guy, found out from him a competitor is doing them for less than $80. More power to him.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1736 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Michael, it is time you found a new edge sub. Even if it was a mistake that is not one I would want to be subjected to a second time. I subbed out edge work for 4 years. Once I was picking up a job & saw a roll of printing ready to be picked up by a client of mine. I had been paid for my artwork already, & I'm sure the client went to my competitor & not the other way around, but that was when I called the lease company & got my own edge. Never looked back.
posted
Trust me ...your beating a long dead horse here.
I been at this goin on 38 years now and it hasn't changed since the first day I was bright enough to recognize it.
Eventually you will quit worrying about it and get on with your own program.
Oh and while I'm at it... next time someone comes in and wants something cheap or ugly (or better yet both) send them to the other guy...after all if he's filled up with the crap work your sending him he won't have time getting into your buisness...and oh yeah... he'll think your as great guy for sending him the buisness.
I've been doing this for years and believe me it works!
When it comes down to it the only thing you have control of is the quality of your product...if it doesn't bring you more buisness then you are the one thats at fault ...not the other guy!
"Werks fer me it'll werk fer you!"
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Monte, I feel the same way......there are a lot of fish in the sea......fish at the level that you are most successful at.......it is your choice.....and your success......or..... Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What a group like this needs is a "Buying Group" A buying group unifies a group of small shop owners to give them buying power, and in a lot of cases, territorial protection. I did this in the Sporting Goods industry, and it has blossomed to great magnitude. Nobody in our group pays standard wholesale for anything. When we order from Stahl's for example, we pay 10% off their best price. Every store in my group can order a single t-shirt and pay case price. Other companies offer our group "free freight". The major Sporting Goods lines offer us heavy discounts and 12 months to pay. Oftentimes we have ordered the goods and sold them before the bill even comes due.
Yes there is a difference in the sign industry. Sign work is labor intensive and that makes up a great deal of the price. But if you were buying all of your materials and equipment at 10% under what the guy down the street buys them for, you are ahead of him out of the chute.
The nucleus and communication channel is already set right here on this board. I saw a post on the board about the fee to become a resident. If that $50 or even $100 made you a part of the (ISA) International Sign Association, or whatever you wish to call it, people would be forcing money in your hand.
Our territories are protected by postal code. You would have to devise a way to differentiate who can join. This establishes your territorial protection. I realize that such an arrangement gets away from the theme and original intent of this "free board". But the buying group is something that could be explored here and offered to "Letterville Residents" aside from the board.
If anyone is interested in how to pursue such a venture, I'll gladly share my experiences. It works very well! Punch your competitor out before he/she can get started.
-------------------- Danny Palmer Punta Gorda, Florida
Edge II - Embroidery & Digitizing Wholesale to the industry. Posts: 88 | From: Punta Gorda, Florida USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are plenty of storefront businesses out there competing for the lowest bid so I think its unfair to blame the home-based shops. The problem is more like what it is they're bidding on. If your potential customer shows your (as of yet) unpaid-for sketch to other shops, then they're just going to bid on construction & production. And its your own fault for losing sketch without a deposit.
Maybe Deposit isn't the right terminology here. When you require a deposit you may be assuming the job is already yours. A design Fee may be more appropriate. Yea, I know its easier to figure up a cost by having a nice sketch as a guide. But only use it for your own purpose & show it to a customer only if a design Fee is paid up-front. Mostly when we on bid a sign, we include the design as part of the total package & hope we get the deposit. Some shops know better & don't do any design work without the fee up-front. Let 'm know before hand that a fee is required, how much & whatever else they need to know.
Do other types of design-related businesses have this problem? Probably not as they know better than to Loan-Out their services.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
your right it was my fault I assumed by writing on the design that the design could not be produced without me being paid for the design that another sign shop would understand that the design was only for the purpose of qouting the truck company a price for the logo design and the actual work. but like I said live and learn wont happen to me again.
and to be fair I dont know if the guy ever saw my title block for all i know the trucker could have traced my design and passed it off as his own.
where is N. Hunington, PA maybee your the guy that stole my design....just kidding
posted
Stealin' is Stealin'. Should you be able to create a design for a customer, in good faith, to "show them your stuff" (so to speak)? Yep, but it don't work that way all the time. It's a little thing sometimes known as honesty, conscience, integrity, scruples among other things, seemingly foreign to a large percentage of the population but still practiced by a few. I had to learn the hard way; don't do any design work without a design deposit. Is it your fault they ripped you off? Nope, STEALING IS STEALING no matter what the circumstances. Just don't do it no more!
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually when I had my storefront I had to charge LESS than I do now just to be in the same ballpark as the other zillion sign shops that were around town. I decided I didnt' want to play that game. I now charge quite a bit more (thanks to Mark Roberts!) and can pick and choose which customers I want. I am really getting fed up with the cheap asses who don't pay quickly and want the lowest price. I say GO. Go down the street. No I am not the busiest signmaker always. But I am making alot more on each job now.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
danny we got that here.....most of the advertizers here..give a "letterhead discount" was on chat with fast fred lastnight..didnt know he was a supplier......he has "letterhead prices" for his vinyl.....i think roger give a little for people who order from here..dont qoute me on that...but i sent some blades of to be sharpened..and there where complications..but the owner called me and told me what was what....and he took care of me....so bits & bits will get any refurals i can give.....and all the blades i need sharpened...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
No - It wasn't me. I was just offering what I thought might be helpful advice for the future. I currently have a design floatin' around out there somewhere which somehow slipped out without a deposit. It was not my intention for it to be free. I also have a message which states the design is my property until paid for printed on it.
So if you see it would you let me know?
N.Huntingdon is around Irwin, litterally. Its beginning to look that way with all the new construction. Some builders just don't like trees I guess.
As far as sketches go, I'm considering keeping a ball of string & a paper punch with me whenever I see a customer to remind me not to do that no matter how trustworthy they seem. I guess its time to wake up. Free work don't pay the bills.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
Ive been to Irwin I grew up in Pittsburgh (Mt Washington) met my wife at school (PTI) down there and she moved me out to Grampian with the country folk. I like it though traffic is just about non existant.
posted
Chuck - Just wanted to throw my two cents worth on this topic. I am a part-time custom auto/bike painter, and a full-time auto mechanic. I was told in an e-mail exchange not long ago that I should stick to fixing cars, because I wasn't serious enough about painting to quit my job and blow off the responsibilities of a wife, 3 kids and a mortgage to pursue an entry-level job at a sign shop. I can't begin to tell you how mad that made me. In the auto tech field, I compete against chain stores, dealerships, and backyard shade-tree techs. In the painting field, I compete against one full-time and one part-time guy, both of whom are excellant painters. I don't knock my competition in either field, because everyone is entitled to pursue their dreams, just as I have pursued mine. I also don't change my price for doing a job, because I know what value I place on my work. I don't lower my price as a tech to compete with guys with less experience and ability, and I don't lower my price as a painter to get work away from guys who have more experience and ability. I just try to do quality work in both fields, and hope that my dedication to doing the job right shows through. If these new guys you are dealing with are good, quality-oriented people, sooner or later they will be among your circle of business aquaintances, as they learn and grow. If they are low-ball slop artists, sooner or later they will be gone.
-------------------- Ben Sherr Street Metal Custom Auto Art 3006 River Rd Hopewell, Va 23860 (804)452-1540 Bjay65@msn.com Posts: 77 | From: Hopewell, Virginia | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just had to post an amen to that last one! I paint windows and have been undercut on so many and my feeling about that is just try to do it better. In time they all disappear because you just can't stay in business if you give EVERYBODY a discount.
-------------------- Wanda B. Goode Artist P.O. Box 210636, Bedford, TX, USA Posts: 12 | From: Bedford, TX | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi Chuck! I personally have never punched a competitor. I am Little Mary Sunshine to them. I send them Xmas cards, I wave at them in traffic. I invite them to meets. I would rather be a suck-*ss to them than have them rip on me. What goes around comes around, baby. I have been known to refer clients to them! (You know, the ones who want a 4'x8', red helvetica on white, for $50....) Take care, keep cool. Love- JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
venture, I'll gladly share my experiences. It works very well! Punch your competitor out before he/she can get started.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic