posted
This has been thee most informative thread I have read here since finding this site 3&1/2 years ago.
I was just talking to a friend and Edge user earlier this week about the ins and outs of this technology.
Great post and responses. Thanks to all.
Joel
-------------------- Joel H. Peters Peter Pan Sign Graphics Cary,Il. "Doin' it Good since 1974" Posts: 114 | From: Cary,IL,USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
well....i started into vinyl and computer in 92-93....1st thing i did was try to steer clear of GEBER-GOT-CHA stuff. i played with ga a couple of days...totally iratating...its so "dummy oriented" i couldnt stand it..sorta like the rush lintbag of cutting programs. her it is 2002 and iam still cutting from corel...gee..to easy...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
But you're thinking inside the box on this one. Programs like Illustrator and Sign software are VERY much alike.
The focal points I'm referring to in regards to Illustrator and photoshop is that between vector and raster images....and you like to quote selected snippets of posts ...you should have included the following statements about the lines becoming blurred between the two programs.
Both Illustrator and Omega have the capabilities to draw vector objects, fill them with spot, cmyk, gradient fills, etc. They can weld, slice and dice, align objects, inline, outline, add and manipulate text, distort, skew, rotate objects, select and delete or move line segments and nodes, adjust anchor points with interactive handles etc. Yep you're right, their really different.
What does substrates have to do with why a program lacks layers?
I think Bill addressed this by pointing out that the MacImprint (Omega version for Macs and Illustrator)software doesn't have an issue with layers and driving the Edge?
Layers is without a doubt a reasonable expectation for sign software...and it's absence from some sign software just reinforces my belief that Omega software designers aren't nearly as proficient
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
As it was pointed out earlier, MacImprint does not have all of the same abilities as Omega.
Also, if you will go back and read Bob's posts, multiple substrates has a lot to do with things and the difficulties it creates.
Omega has layers as someone pointed out earlier. It does not have layer control other than the rudimentaries.
The difficulties in this for programming is, "How do you create a design in multiple layers without telling the Edge to print the same color multiple times?"
Yes, I know that in Corel that you can do this since substrates are not a consideration. However, the software user, the "artist", still has to take certain things into consideration when creating the design when considering the final printing method and its limitations.
Case in point. A while back, I did a design utilizing Corel's shadow feature. I sent it to Gregory for printing. What I got back was awful. The printer could not read and understand the tranparency of Corel's shadows. So, instead of getting a soft shadow effect like a saw on my monitor and what my deskjet printed out, I got an ugly solid gray mass which did not show any of the underlying color. I had to go back and rework the design and how Corel used shadows before the e-stat printer could print the image as intended. It seems that the printer could not properly interpret the "layers" in the ripping process prior to printing.
That is my concern with using the Edge. It's not so much that I'm trying to think inside the box. I'm thinking about the mechanics of what Omega is suppose to drive. Until Gerber gives the Edge a postscript interpreter and better rip, Omega is going to have limitations as to how the software can be written.
Then there is the matter of being able to properly trap colors without requiring traps and bleeds. By having the same color at multiple layer, the only thing the Edge can do is print the design with the colors butt-to-butt. And, any Edge user knows that vinyl has a tendency to shift ever so slightly during the printing process and creating gaps between the different colors. If you have the same color at different layers, and some are assigned to print with bleeds and some without, you open yourself to a mess. The current solution is to give each color its own layer. But, even that simple thing confuses the heck out of people. I've got the e-mails and phone calls from other Edge users to back that up.
[ April 14, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
I talked to Gerber a couple of weeks ago about this rumor I heard about the old Edge no longer being supported. They told me they have plenty of parts, I can get it repaired, I Just have to pay for it, can no longer renew my service contract.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1052 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Glenn, go to OMEGA and create twelve shapes in twelve different vinyls and stack them on top of each other. Voila, you now have twelve layers. Now decide you want the backmost item to be fourth from the top, you click either "move to front 1" eight times or you click "move to front" once and "move back 1" three times. Anyway you slice it you're layering substrates right, left and centre, and OMEGA is managing quite well to keep track of it all. OMEGA already knows there are twelve items stacked up and it knows the hierarchy of the stack. None of that would change if the layers had names.
Now, pretend we had three named layers with four of the twelve objects on each layer, it could look like this:
Everything is still in the same order. The only difference is, if I want to keep from inadvertently selecting or moving items on Layer 2, I can lock them in place, and if I want to be able to see Items 5 through 8 without the distraction of the other items, I can make them invisible, and if I want to take Item 1 to be at the top of Layer 2 I'd just select the object and click on Layer 2 rather than "move to front" seven times.
We're not asking for the moon here, Glenn. I'm sure there are a lot more complex features in OMEGA than having named layers. I'll reiterate - the layers are already there; give us more freedom with them.
(By the way, I have the utmost respect for the difficulty of a programmer's job. I was a programmer for thirteen years.)
I understand, but what happens when you decide to put several different objects onto different layers with the same color. Then assign some of these objects with an overprint and some with a stroke + overprint?
What will happen?
How does Omega or the Edge differentiate and determine the user's intention and still avoid printing the same color several different times thereby wasting foil?
posted
Yes, Flexi (v6.6) has layers and fairly good layer control (naming, ordering, coloring (the wireframe color), locking, on/off, etc.)
Since Flexi is both a raster and a vector based program the layers work with whatever design element is on the screen.
I would like to see Omega have raster editing capabilities. It is so handy and quick in Flexi to have the bitmap tools and Adobe as well as Eye Candy plug-ins right there.
I would still use Photoshop for more critical editing. But since a lot of the Edge output is raster based, it would sure be handy to have those tools right on board.
Stephen
-------------------- Stephen Bolin Signs By Tomorrow Holland, MI Posts: 78 | From: Holland, MI | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
ahhhhh, unless im mistaken, cocut can cut by color. You can cut all pieces of one color in a multi color lauyout.., and can trap too. It cannot be that hard to program..
But, i may be way off since i dont know anything about GA or Omege or the edge.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
I would like to see Omega become more robust in that area too. I don't know what your experience is in Omega is, but did you know that you can have PhotoShop setup as your bitmap editing tool in Omega?
posted
THANK YOU DIANE! Good explaination...as layers, though crude, are already there...so why not make it function as the rest of software manufacturers do?! There's no excuse not to, and I'm with you.
Now Glenn, what really "wastes" foil is this: When you print a .tiff effect (whether part of a picture, a texture or whatnot) that has no VISIBLE image on one end, yet I suppose it technically contains data, and it "mock" prints or unrolls foil as if it were printing until it gets to the part of the tiff where there is actually a visible image to print...thereby wasting foil. I doubt this can be reconciled...but boy would it be nice.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Giving each color it's own layer would not be confusing, but rather make logical sense if you could actually see each layer, name each layer, order each layer, and turn on/turn off each layer like layers were MEANT to work. And this I believe is the power of layers.
And that's the point...Omega's feeble attempt at layers is NOT industry standard and SHOULD be reworked to be so.....thereby making a currently tough job...an easy one.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
How do you reconcile the different layers with the same color foil -- some with overprints, some with overprints & strokes, and some without. How do to tell the Edge to differentiate?
No one has answered that simple question yet. Do you have an answer?
As for your point about bitmaps, no other thermal printer manufacturer else has found a solution either. So the point is moot and has nothing to do with our discussion.
I still don't want to have to print the same color 2,3 and 4 times because of lazy file creation.
************
BTW, there is an answer.
[ April 15, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
How do you reconcile the different layers with the same color foil -- some with overprints, some with overprints & strokes, and some without. How do to tell the Edge to differentiate?
No one has answered that simple question yet. Do you have an answer?
Glenn, it is a simple answer and I thought my previous post covered it. However they do it now is exactly how they would do it with layers.
OMEGA allows you to select whatever items you want and output them regardless of how much sense it makes to do so. It will take those items, reconcile the attributes in relation to one another and print them out. Whatever magic is involved to make that happen is already being done. Layers is simply a way of labelling the hierarchy of objects that already exists.
You can select individual objects and OMEGA knows what has been selected and what has not. It changes the screen display by assigning a different colour to the lines that are selected. It's not a quantum leap to NOT DISPLAY the objects that are not selected - which would be akin to having a layer turned off.
Macromedia Freehand handles chokes, spreads, bleeds, overlaps, overprints, etc. and still allows named layers. It has been that way almost forever, and if Gerber wants a good model that would be the one I'd suggest. It's simple and elegant and although I only use it when complexity demands, layers are a godsend. (Personally I find Photoshops implementation of layers more complex than it needs to be and sometimes it's downright irritating.)
So to answer your question "however they do it now is how they'd do it with layers".
posted
Diane to my rescue again. Great explaination. You have a great way of conveying your thoughts Diane. If I'm ever in Canada, I'll have to take you out to lunch and we can toast the powers of layers.
Glenn, I know bitmaps weren't part of the discussion...just a side thought that popped into my head as we were discussing wasted foil. I too, doubt that that particular problem can be addressed by the very nature of raster images. Just wishin'. I guess we can always "rewind" the vinyl to the unused spot for another project.
But the larger point is what Bill pointed out about 20 posts ago...which is that Gerber allows you to use layers now with MacImprint as an Illustrator plugin. And I agree with Diane that, it should not be a quantum leap to tweak the crude layers already in use by Omega.
This debate is great! There are always good points made and it keeps us learning and on our toes. Keep 'em coming.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi Todd, Getting back to MacImprints limitations. Other than having to use Illustrators maximum document size of about 18' and the lack of a consecutive numbering ability, what's missing?
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Look what you did, a 50+ post that didn’t include politics or religion. (Although, upon closer examination, is it really void of religion and politics? )
Chuck,
Please stop introducing facts into this type of discussion; it ruins everything!
Those that actually own the equipment and invest the time to stay informed already know that Service Contracts are being dropped for the older models, and not service of that piece of equipment in general. Service contracts are designed to help us, the end users, to reduce or control maintenance cost, among other things, while at the same time generating revenue to Gerber. When the equation becomes lopsided, its time for the SC’s to get the ax. It’s business, pure and simple. Thanks for posting accurate information as it relates to the issue.
Stephen and Glenn,
You guys have seen this in the past on another board, but here it is again for those that haven’t. Quoted from another board.
quote: And some would like to see raster based editing within the software as well. For my thoughts on that, view an October post from Stephen titled Digital Camera (JPG) output on Edge is too Greenand read the last two paragraphs from my response. I’m sure others don’t share my view on that, but that how I feel about the subject. ***** As for OMEGA and bitmap manipulation…yes it would be nice, and perhaps more convenient, and it may or may not be including someday. If it were to be included, would you be willing to pay more for the software? If you answered yes, how much more? Do you believe other shops would pay that much? If you answered no, would you expect it to be as robust as PS or just include “basic” capabilities? Define “basic” capabilities. How do you feel about an add in module with those capabilities? Would you expect it to take advantage of PS and other plug-ins?
I often thought I would like to see such a thing, but if it weren’t “full featured,” I’d still be shelling out to PS to do my work anyway. So what would I have gained? A bigger software package and a smaller wallet. I guess my answer would be “how much” for “how much.” What do some of the others think on the subject?
Diane,
Layers in Photoshop are greatly improved in version 7, IMHO. Others have felt your pain an Adobe made what I believe are positive changes. I’m more exited over 7 then any other upgrade in recent PS history. Coming to a store near you, soon!
Todd,
If I understand your situation correctly in regards to “wasted” foil usage when printing raster based files, check our Gerber FastFacts #3555. (http://www.gspinc.com/support/fastfacts/3555.htm) This may or may not help you out with your “waste” situation. Something else to consider; create and use a “mask” object. It doesn’t correct the underlying problem but usually does allow for the same end result you seek.
As for the great layer discussion…
I just don’t get it? Just because another program has this or that feature doesn’t automatically make it “right” for Omega. What I am interested in seeing within Omega is efficiencies for the way we, users of there hardware, work. With that in mind, some type of object level property control is needed. Call it what you want….
Yes Glenn, there is an answer.
Perhaps everyone in this discussion, myself included, is in “the box” on this issue. Why does “layer” usage within Omega have to conform to other program layer conventions? Why look at tools offered in those other packages and mold them to fit Omega. Perhaps its time for Omega to shed its shell and grow into an intuitive, industry leading productive program for all sign makers that is nothing like GA and Omega?! Perhaps its time for Omega users to learn a new and efficient way of working instead of extending the current model?!
Remember the Apple add campaign from a few years ago; “Think Different”! I believe now is a good time.
By the way, for the Gerber folks reading this, I’m with Glenn on Postscript support and would like to add USB v2.0 connectivity for the Edge!! Thanks!
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bill - I knew you were gonna make me pay the piper on that one...I'll get back to you with specifics....maybe, just maybe you'll prove me full of beans! Haha
Bob - thanks for the tip on saving foil with raster images.
I gotta disagree with your comment on layers. Layers should be adopted by Omega because IT DOES work so well with other apps. Graphics professionals love layers...(at least the ones I know do.) Hey, I'll concede that if they can "best" layers....sure, go for it. But for now...layers are sweet relief! Better than Rolaids.
And, using your logic....why then would you want to implement Postscript support and usb support? Just because other plotter and hardware and software manufacturers do it? Does that make it good? Just playing devil's advocate here.
Keep the ideas coming. I'll embrace any better way of doing things that man or beast can dream up. Hey, this post is rapidly approaching the popularity of the Peein' Calvin one! Hehe.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Seriously, at least for a moment, PS support would allow for “some things” to happen differently from within Omega, and for the most part, in a positive direction. And for US; needs to happen sooner rather than later. Serial and Parallel are going the way the ISA bus went. ByeBye!! Plus, USB would make the distribution channel VERY HAPPY from an installation standpoint. Trust me on that one.
No back to your cut on me , yes correct, why PS or USB, come on Gerber, invent something better!
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
See how easy it is to have a civilized debate/discussion without it degenerating into a mudslinging contest. This is fun.
I like Bob's terminology along the lines of object control; maybe "layers" is complicating the discussion unnecessarily, although I do think that if and when this feature is implemented, layers is a good explanitory word.
Back to Glenn's questions:
quote:I understand, but what happens when you decide to put several different objects onto different layers with the same color. Then assign some of these objects with an overprint and some with a stroke + overprint?
What will happen?
How does Omega or the Edge differentiate and determine the user's intention and still avoid printing the same color several different times thereby wasting foil?
Unless I'm missing some new mindreading feature of the Edge, the onus is still on me to apply strokes and overprints properly. If I'm dumb enough (and I have been many times) to assign overprint to the fill and forget to do the stroke, the Edge will happily ignore my intention and instead go with my directive, thereby printing twice and wasting foil. Layers (or object control) won't change that.
My needs for object controls are very simple:
let me lock objects I don't want moved inadvertently; let me move objects to their desired location in an easier fashion; let me get some objects out of my viewing plane while I review other objects.
Whether you call it layers, object control, whatever, those are the three things I want from this feature. I don't care about "linking layers" as I think that's overly complicating the issue.
As far as multiple substrates goes, I don't do much vinyl designing with OMEGA so I might be missing something here, but traps, bleeds, overprints, etc. only apply to printed output anyway so object control shouldn't complicate the issue there either.
posted
Hehehe....no offense Bob...just a little good nature elbow jab.
There's a lot to keep straight with Omega and the Edge. One overlooked eccentric rule, and the job is screwed up.
We now print everything super small as a test before sending a massive supplies gobbler through the Edge. It's saved us a ton of foil and vinyl more than once. It's so easy to miss something.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Elbow accepted with a smile! Actually, this thing has kind of been therapeutic in a strange way. By the way, I’ve been informed by private email that “object control” in the past was defined as not spilling the 1-Shot can! I got a kick out of that one.
quote: There's a lot to keep straight with Omega and the Edge. One overlooked eccentric rule, and the job is screwed up.
Late last year, Glenn posted a thread over at 4edgetalk.com titled Omega and Edge - What would be on your Christmas wishlist? His question was simple; If Santa worked at Gerber, what would you wish he'd do different with Omega and the Edge? I still stick by my original answer; that it would print out the way I wanted it to, not the way I told it to!
Once someone invents a computer/operating system/software package that does what we want it to do as opposed to what we instruct it to do, I will show you a very rich person!
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I had a couple of questions....why is it that when say you have a job saved in Omega...you open it ....select some of it copy and paste into a new Composer that colours change without warning. I did a layout today for a customer, then changed a couple of things for business cards, copied and pasted and the colour went from dark blue to burgundy.
I still find that my Omega closes down without warning.
Any quick tips on improving the colour side...I find it very frustrating.....when you load Illustrator 10 its fine from day 1....I calibrated Omega using Monaco color...not with the machine but the screen method, and nothing relates to the true colors in Illustrator.
Many thanks to Bob for the Avery pallettes...they're great now....you load the Gerber palletes and get alot of black squares where colour should be.
Like I posted about 50 posts back, I am getting the hang of it now, and enjoy it ´for the most part.
That said another small "whine" would be having to zoom in often (21" monitor) otherwise the select tool is very inclined to catch the wrong thing.
posted
As Bill has already pointed out, MacImprint (MI) offers most everything that Omega offers. Some things are approached differently and require a bit more work than GA or Omega users are accustomed to. However, AI users have a plethora of tools at their disposal that GA or Omega simply don’t have.(Did anybody mention layers recently ) So here is a short list of things to jump start the dialog between Bill and Todd. Maybe somebody printing from Freehand, Quark, or Photoshop will pipe in here as well. I haven’t met any of them yet. Keep in mind, I’m not a MacImprint user, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. (TV commercial reference) Please correct any misstatements, as I would like to keep this factual.
AI doesn’t offer auto numbering like GA or Omega (GA&O) does. I don’t believe auto text is offered either, but I’m not 100% positive on that.
Bill stated that AI, as the host program, limits size to 18’, where GA&O is virtually limitless.
Illustrator is not designed to be a cutting program; therefore text has to be converted to outlines in order to be cut and placed on a cutting layer. (Along with any other object that needs to be cut.) An extra step or two that GA&O users are not use to.
The cut layer needs to have a special naming convention to be recognized. It needs to start with “cut”.
Text also needs to be converted to outlines in order to print.
I believe the ability to move cartridge order around was first done in MI then ported to GA 6.21 (SP3?)and standard with O.
MI has Standard and Overprint heat settings; GA&O has an additional setting of Overlap.
MI cannot simulate Gerber vinyl colors on screen like GA&O. (Everything is done on the same “vinyl”; sort of the staple in Glenn’s comment’s above about multiple substrates/layering issues)
Have at it Todd and Bill, add to the list. This was just to warm you guys up.
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Back to the layers issue, how to impliment it is the problem. Gerber does not do things in Z-order like Corel and Illustrator.
One of the issues is the "Print Order" of things while designing in Omega. Simply put....you have 220 White vinyl, then Tomato Red foil, and then Colbalt Blue foil, and so on. Gradients make things more complicated.
Then the issue is "do you just take the various layers and flatten the image at output time or have some sort of post-processing done in Quick Plot?"
I think that if you are going to have Layers/Object Control, it is going to have to be done a little bit differently than what some are used to in Corel/Illustrator/PhotoShop. I think it is going to have to be done in a Layers+Sub-Layers manner. By this I mean that the Substrate would be a Master Layer 1. Then, there would be a Sub-Layer based on foil color. All of the objects of the same vinyl & color foil would be assigned to that particular Sub-Layer. This way, you could still be able to select a given object on any layer just like in Corel. In fact, Corel's "Object Manager" interface would be ideal in this case. Then, to move an object from one layer to another, all that the user has to do is either assign that object a different vinyl or foil. The object is then automatically moved to the proper vinyl/foil layer.
I think this could be doable without requiring a major software rewrite. And, it would solve the overprint and trap issues as well.
To have a Layers control as in Corel/Illustrator/PhotoShop, as I see it, will lead to potential problems. By having multiple objects on multiple layers with the same foil colors which have been assigned different attributes (i.e. - overprints, traps, & bleeds), there is going to problems when it comes time to tell the Edge to print. This is an issue that Corel has to face now when I used it to generate film positives with my imagesetter. In Corel, either all of the objects of a certain color fill must be set to overprint or not. You can't have some objects with a PMS 321 fill to overprint and other objects with a PMS 321 fill not to over print. It is strictly an all or nothing choice.
Having Layers is a wonderful idea. But, the devil is in the details.
*******
To Diane's response...
quote: Unless I'm missing some new mindreading feature of the Edge, the onus is still on me to apply strokes and overprints properly. If I'm dumb enough (and I have been many times) to assign overprint to the fill and forget to do the stroke, the Edge will happily ignore my intention and instead go with my directive, thereby printing twice and wasting foil. Layers (or object control) won't change that.
"Ease of Use" is part of the issue. If you have different objects at different layers with the same color foil but assigned different attributes, there is going to be problems. Especially for new users. Omega is already tough enough to learn. It doesn't need to be made any more difficult and confusing than it already is.
* * * * * * *
quote: My needs for object controls are very simple:
let me lock objects I don't want moved inadvertently; let me move objects to their desired location in an easier fashion; let me get some objects out of my viewing plane while I review other objects.
I think that if Layer/Object Control management were done as I suggested, I think your Object Control Needs can be done and done easily by right-clicking on a given sub-layer which would give you a menu of command choices.
I still personally think it can be done...as stated before, it's output now in MacImprint and ilustrator which uses layers...did you explain away this one, or am I just too tired and mush headed tonight to remember?
I can't believe that implementing some sort of logical layers function could be any more difficult to use than what they have now...which can drive a guy nutz!
There has to be a brainiac computer geek who can figure it all out without it being difficult for people like me. Put out an ad in the paper Gerber!
Glenn....how do you feel about the editing functions? I think they are unecessarily difficult: Is it me, or is it impossible to move more than one node at a time? And having to constantly switch between curve and sharp when moving handles is really annoying.
I'm going to bed....hopefully, I won't have any Omega nightmares. Have a good one.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Re-read Bob's post on MacImprint. It can only see all of the objects as a single substrate. This screws up any chance for what you consider to be "logical" if it were implimented in Omega. In fact, to make it work, you'd have to give up some existing features already in Omega. That's not good.
As for "Detail Edit", I agree 100%. I've harped on it since it was first released. That said, it is possible to select multiple nodes and move them at the same time. Its just not a intuitive way to do it. And, switching between curves and sharp is pure aggrevation.
The whole interface needs to be simplified and cleaned up. An interactive toolbar similar to Corel would be a very positive step. Cadlink has already implimented it with SignLab e6.
What do you think about having "diminsioning" added to Omega?
Dimensioning as in laying down quick dimension tags on the artwork right on the screen to show a customer? Yes. And also to get an accurate size on the actual printable image, when your art contains a raster image that might extend beyond what you want to print? That would be helpful too.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
My gut reaction is "flatten at output" since that's the way I'm seeing it anyway. It may be just the way I use layers (which is actually very simplistic as I've mentioned above), but I don't see my design as being "in layers". I see it as being flat, and I do see it in terms of output, i.e. substrate on the bottom, Yellow next, Black with overprint on next, etc.
As a test to see what you meant I created four overlapping objects. (I tried to insert a screen image here but couldn't) Mental assignment of layers is as follows: Layer 1 - blue circle (no overprints) Layer 2 - white box, yellow box (no overprints) Layer 3 - yellow circle, overprint
Now, in looking at it I see that the where the yellow circle overprints the yellow box it will give me a spectratone colour in that area, so I'd either move the yellow box to the top layer and "weld" it with the yellow circle, or I'd decide that the Spectratone colour is what I entended and leave it there. Where the yellow circle on layer 3 overlaps the blue circle on layer 1 I get a green segment.
I don't think my three wishes for layers (see previous post ) violate any of OMEGA's current means of determining output order because I don't see it being any different than it currently is. I currently have to set the job up with a view to how it is going to print; I have to know which items need bleeds, etc; and I have to have the items properly stacked (or, some might say layered). All this remains the same. I can't expect to have something placed on the middle layer that I expect to print on the top.
Now, what would be REALLY COOL would be if we could select by colour and have it display not the design elements but the actualy output - you know, what it looks like on the foil when you remove it from the machine. That way I could see that I had something knocking out that I hadn't intended to, and I wouldn't do so much nashing of teeth. Most of our work is with spot colour and it can get really difficult to look at your drawing and know if you've got all the overprints, traps, etc, properly applied. One quick look at each colour AS IT WOULD PRINT would be a godsend.
Most of our design work is industrial - say a control panel with dozens of holes for switches, some cutout, some clear LED's, some green areas that should NOT be backed with white, some green areas that SHOULD be backed with white, text, etc. This can get really complicated to look at and ensure you've got everything set up the way it should be.
Maybe those of you whose designs are more graphically complex need things to operate differently, so you'll have to put your 2 cents in and explain the way you need it to work. The more thoughts, the more opportunity to get a good balance of what's most useful in applying layers (just in case Santa's listening).
posted
Since we're brainstorming...regarding the multiple substrates issue, probably a lot of us acquired GA/OMEGA when we purchased our Edge and never think of it in terms of multiple substrates. In fact, that aspect trips me up a lot of the time. I'm seeing it as one substrate with multiple colours.
Maybe if the layers concept is too difficult to implement on both fronts, we would choose a "mode" to work in; i.e. cut vinyl OR edge print. How much of your work is the two combined? How would this impact those of you who use both at once?
posted
And I thought I wanted to buy an Edge2. I knew there would be a learning curve, but my god! I didn't realize it was the size of the moon. How long does it take to learn all this? Is there any formal training that comes with the purchase. So, much to consider and think of and learn and compatibility and pc power and and and and.................gees louise!
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
If you've ever screen printed before, file creation is not unlike making rubyliths where some colors will print butt-to-butt, some will overprint on top of another color and others will simply overprint just at the edge of the image. Diane, Bob and I are what some might call "power users" in that we really get pretty deep into what Omega can do. While most just use the default setting, we are poking around just to see how far we can push Omega's capabilies. Beside, we are gluttons for punishment.
What we are discussing is really programming issues, not so much the program in and of itself. One of the pitfalls of designing software is that it becomes overwhelming at first glance, visually speaking. Its like Photoshop. I find it very intimidating, but as I use it more and more, I find myself liking it and understanding why certain things are done the way they are. And, at the same time, you have previous users who get upset if you change things too much at one time, because then they feel like they are having to learn the software all over again every time there is an upgrade.
As far as training goes, thats up to whatever the distributor and you decide on. There is also a BB available that is dedicated to the Edge. I'll e-mail you the address.
Now do yourself a favor. Quit dawdling and get an Edge-2!
For all the complaing we're doing here...the Edge 2 is a breadbox sized wonder. If you have a decent customer base and some imagination...you can do some awesome stuff. I've used my buddies quite a bit and it still amazes me and everyone else.
Once you get the basics...you'll be on your way. I think where it really shines is in combining raster images along with spot colors. (pictures incorporated with the usual effects.) I've done some pretty neat things.
Did a construction workers logo with the letters having a photographic woodgrain w/knots fading out towards the top to white, and then having an thin inline to pop it and separate it from the thicker outline dropshadow printed in spot colors. Behind the logo is a full color computer generated buzz saw blade. It turned out real cool.
Anyway...for it's quirkyness...it's a sweet tool.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is getting too long to remember all the issues but we'll give it a shot. First of all, Chuck, I agree totally with your learning curve comment. Most Illustrator users are up and running with MI within hours. Of course, that's already experianced users.
Bob, your comments... Yes, we need a cut layer. I don't find this as an extra step. Option dragging a selected object in the layers palett copies it to the cut layer in a wink. Yes, type has to be converted to curves there, command<shift< O, done. I personally like the cut layer. You can see at a glance what's set to be cut and make sure the shapes are welded, etc.
Fonts will print with MI.
The ability to shift the foil print order is a great asset. I guess Omega does that too from your comment.
No, there is no vinyl color pallet to work with. Simulating a color in CMYK is no major problem and putting it on a non-printing layer does work.
Frankly,I haven't seen Omea working since the SGIA show in LasVegas a couple of years ago, and it was still beta than, so forgive any ignorant statements or assumptions. Glen, I'm not sure about the multiple substrates comment. guess it's an issue that i haven't needed. If I were to be doing a sandblasted sign with and Edge print somewhere on it, I wouldn't print it out of that file anyhow but would place it in it's own ready to print file. It could be paneled though and selected as the only panel to print if I wanted to do it that way. Maybe I missed you here.
I hope everyone accomplished and learned something here, it's been a fun one.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Chuck, we wouldn't be able to have these discussions if we weren't using our machines to death! For instance, this weekend I produced 500 6" x 8" 3-colour Lexan labels SERIALIZED, adhesive backed, while participating in this discussion. When all was done, I only had 13 pieces that I had to redo because of printing flaws. That was followed by 1100 1" x .75", three-colour, Lexan labels, again serialized, and adhesive backed, only 18 redos. Whew!!! What a weekend. I need a rest.
Don't worry about the learning curve. There is one, same as any other software or equipment you acquire. We love our Edge2's and we can make 'em dance. Join the party, we'll see you at the bank .
As Glenn said, the users group is invaluable - and so is practice.
posted
I think I'm just a chicken. I've have perfect credit and I want to keep it that way. I will have to finance, so I'll have to make money with it fast and keep it making money to keep the bank off me. So, hence the learning curve. I see me opening the box and setting it all up, sitting down to it and having a heart attack watching the days pass until it's "payment" day on the equipment. I wonder if anyone is offering a crash course on using it?
Thanks guys and girls,
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
...you should have included the following statements about the lines becoming blurred between the two programs.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Elbow accepted with a smile! 
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic