posted
Well I guess nobody has graphix advantage 6.2 software for sale, so I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy Omega, I think ND will give me some kind of deal on it, afterall i did buy 2 full blown versions of 6.2 over the last 3 yrs. Hint Hint to John Aston.. I know that some of you cursed this software in the beginning, but what are your thoughts on it now. Is there a very big learning curve? and how does it compare to the old software, such as tools, importing files and so on. I would really like to hear your comments on this one... Thanks in advance... Neil
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Neil..go for OMEGA. I choked a bit on the price too, but I had occasion work on GA6.2 again last month and that's when I really appreciated the features of OMEGA. Aside from design tools and better interface, one of the major benefits for us was the move to windows file management - long file names, creating new folders from the save window, etc. That alone was worth the price.
I can't remember specifics now about which tools OMEGA has that GA6.2 doesn't, but I can tell you that for us the program is very stable. There were some bugs when it first came out, but the Canadian release was held up awhile till things stablized. I got mine the minute it was available in Canada and haven't had any problems with crashing, etc.
I don't remember seeing you post at all on the Edge forum 4edgetalk.com, but there are discussions there regarding OMEGA you might want to check out.
I saw your asking for used GA software....although all of us that upgraded to Omega have 6.0 or 6.2 in the draw....the dongle is re-written when you upgrade, and the software is no good without it.
I never understood why like Cadlink, you can't run GA 6.0 and Omega parallel, while learning, it works like that with Signlab 5 and E6.
As for Omega.....well where do you begin!!
I must say today I was thinking that it was an improvement, and I was begining to get to grips with it. I may be missing some things here, as we dont get any formal education here when you upgrade.
You get a video here which in Europe has no sound and is in B/W. WHy can't Gerber put it on a CD-Rom even if we had NTSC instead of PAL how many shops have tv and video next to the workstation??
There are some long overdue improvements like Diane says long file names are a big plus.
I don't like the blacksquares to mark objects I think when they turned red before it was better, I know it goes blue now but its those black squares especially when editing.
Colors are no good....or at least something is not right, I tried to calibrate using the Monaco CD etc. You open a file in Illustrator 8,9 or 10 and import it into Omega and its not just small color differences it huge, and their pallettes are no good. I loaded a Avery 800 pallette and most colors came up black, why include pallettes with software if they are not even half complete??
I have installed service pack 1.54, you can be in the middle of doing something and Omega closes without warning, you can hit save occassionally and Omega shuts down without warning...strange.
Like anything once you start adapting to it you get used to it. There are lots of good things that are a big plus, a few things that should have stayed from GA, and a few things that could be added.
Its growing on me....and seems inevitable if you are continiung with Gerber.
I run mine on a new Dell Dimension workstation, with Win 2K Pro, I bought it with a dual monitor card so I have my plot menu/output in one monitor and composer in the main 21"....I like that...thought it was a shame that the split screen feature that Omega has so you can work simultaneously in wireframe and filled can only be split on the one monitor...you cant open up one "double composer" and drag it over to the other screen to make a larger worksurface....
its really late here....if I think of more I will let you know tomorrow.
posted
Henry you have the daylights scared out of me, Diane you had me excited for a while.. I talked to ND Yesterday and let them know how I feel about not being able to buy 6.2. Seems there only going to sell this to people buying a new edge, they said that they are giving away the software as an an added bonus for buying the edge. I bought my edge 3 yrs ago, just a couple of months before they announced the new edge 2, I did'nt get my software for free, also I bought another complete 6.2 software a year after I plunked down over $45,000.00 for software and hardware, and would'nt you know it a month or two after I paid for the second software they announced Omega. What else have Gerber got up their sleeve? I need to add another work station and they got me by the short and curlys.. now I don't think it's my supplier, ND Has always been decent, but this leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, I've just heard way to many horror stories on this software, I would really like to hear some positive testomonials. Thanks Diane and Henry so far it's split 50/50... now what do I do? Neil
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I had 6.2 before I bought my Edge2 I never used color management in 6.2 so I can't compare. I will state I would never go back to 6.2. Omega has it' squirks but so did 6.2
Omega is by far a superior product over it's predicessor, the time saving features alone are worth the upgrade. If your looking for perfect software, let me know when you find it, and I'll tell you, you haven't used it long enough yet.
Yes Gerber is working on fixing some bugs but at least they haven't charged for any of the updates so far. Geee has microsoft ever done that?
If you have more than one work station this would be a great time to run this side by side and compare for yourself.
I'd jump in and don't look back. I certainly don't regret it.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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The original release of Omega was full of bugs. The current release, version 1.54, is a lot more stable.
According to a post on another BB by Gerber's senior software engineer, they are currently working on version 1.56, which will fee a free update. It is going to include Corel color palettes.
A bit of a historical perspective for you - and a glimmer of hope...
Although still one of the best that investments any commercial signshop owner can make, the EDGE is now about ten years old. This is already a much longer product life cycle than you will typically see...ever. With the introduction of the EDGE2, the EDGE's market value dropped substantially (as did the market price, almost overnight).
Increasingly, as time goes by, we are also selling EDGEs into an segment of the market who already own non-Gerber software and/or who can't afford (or won't pay for) OMEGA; on top of the $20K or so price that an EDGE still commands...so we now always include a "bare-bones" version of GA 6.2 - as a kind of value-added proposition. The only way to get one of these versions of 6.2 is to purchase an EDGE (it is a package). Have you considered a second EDGE?
As a relatively early adopter of the technology, you were bound to pay more than you would have if purchasing several years later. Typically, the payoff for being an early adopter comes in the form of enjoying competitive advantages, higher profit margins and much better ROI, as compared to the people who get in the game much later.
Was your $45K money well spent? Based on my experience with many other "early adopters", I expect that it was.
OMEGA wasn't released by ND GRAPHICS until about a year after Gerber launched the product. This was not an easy decision on our part (can you imagine defering millions of dollars worth of sales for an entire year?) and we took alot of "heat" for it ("I want it now! Why can't I have it now?!)...but we did so to protect our customers from serious aggrevation and costly downtime.
When we finally released OMEGA, you should have received an "Upgrade Today!" OMEGA package from ND GRAPHICS and (from the sounds of it) might have qualified for at least one free upgrade. Let me look into this and see if I can't swing something for you (no promises).
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Neil, I feel your pain. When we purchased our Edge1, I specifically asked Gerber - directly, not through ND - some very pointed questions about future developments, for obvious reasons. They gave me assurances that there was nothing in the works and the Edge2 burst onto the scene a very short time thereafter.
Their claim is that their own employees aren't informed of what's upcoming (yeah, right) so, technically, they weren't lying to me they just didn't know about it.
I understand that if people know of a new release coming it will slow sales of existing product, but wouldn't a better approach be to provide recent buyers with a free or discounted version of software and the option to trade up to new hardware that is introduced within a certain timeframe? I know of other companies that operate that way, and I think customers respond much more readily when there is not a fear of being burned. It's an issue of trust.
Anyway, enough complaining...we've found OMEGA to be much more productive than GA6.2 and when I get a chance this weekend I'll try to post some of the specific changes that we like. One thing I can say is that when we were using GA6.2 we did most of our designing in Freehand and exported AI files to GA6.2 where we assigned colours and output to the Edge. With OMEGA we're actually using the software to create jobs from start to finish.
posted
Neil, I am not trying to scare you....I use Omega everyday, as I never get the time to learn my Signlab....you are in an enviable postion of being able to upgrade one station while continuing to work on your other GA set up side by side. Omega has as others have said many advantages over GA....I just feel that there are a couple of things that should have been kept from the old GA....I hate the colour side of it and make excuses to customers everyday for that.
It shut itself down this morning without warning....why does it do that....I know others have experienced the same. Actually while saving one job....but losing other jobs that were also open.....somebody explain that to me?
No program as Bob says is perfect....I waited and waited, and only upgraded as Gerber would not support GA with windows 2K. I bought this machine before christmas with Win2K an´d so had to take the plunge.
Lots of other things can cause a system to be unstable, and affect software.
I did my GA to Omega upgrade on my old system, so the dongle was changed on that, and then did a clean install on this computer so there was no GA in here, and much less chance of corrupting anything, I installed a later version of Omega and the 1.54 service pack. This computer is used solely for running sign equipment. Playing with the net etc, are done from home, so there is even less risk of problems.
I also have Norton Utilities running here to check for any faults.
So for me its still not bugfree, but again once you get thru the learning curve its much of what you are familiar with, and definetly an improvement and worth the cost....I just wanted to make you aware of some of my findings thru my set up.
posted
One of the worst (and unforgiveable) lack of features of Omega is that it doesn't have layer support!
What a crock! Corel has layers, Illustrator has layers, Photoshop has layers...everybody by Omega.
How nice it would be to have the ability to simply and easily click on and off different layers so you can see work with multi-level images. As it stands right now....you have to "cut" or move an image out of the way to see what's going on below it.
The way you have to "order" things around is ignorant....in my humble opinion.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Well it looks like I'm going Omega, I just got off the phone and worked out the deal, I think, with ND Graphics, they really are great to deal with, so hopefully I'll have it next week, and I guess I am lucky to be able to have both versions of software, 6.21 and the new omega, so the learning curve should be softened a little. Thanks Jon Aston, AND Steve at ND Graphics. Thanks for all the opinions everyone.. by the way I'm typing this on my brand new p4 computer, 512 megs of ram, upgradable to 2gig. a 60 gig hardrive, with all he bells and whistles.. I tell you she's some sweet. Have a great weekend. I will. Neil
[ April 12, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Neil, I'm jealous! Glad to hear you'll be getting a copy of OMEGA. You won't be disappointed (unless of course the version with layers comes out next week and you have to re-upgrade ).
Todd's right about the layers, and we're all anxiously awaiting that feature (which, by the way has been standard issue in graphics software for the past eight years at least). But, the comparison here was between GA6.2 and OMEGA, so on that playing field OMEGA has to win. Put other players on the field and then you have a contest.
quote: What a crock! Corel has layers, Illustrator has layers, Photoshop has layers...everybody by Omega.
I think this is where everyone starts to make mistakes in what to expect. Corel, Illustator, Freehand and Photoshop are illustration programs. They are not production (i.e. - cut & print) programs. While they obviously have a lot of similarities, they are not intended to be the same.
I'm curious.....Do SignLab and Flexi handle layers? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
posted
Glenn, I don't see the relevance. Layers are essential to the management of objects on the screen - it doesn't matter whether the output is laser printed, cut on a vinyl cutter, or plotted with a pen (as with Autocad). And since the introduction of the Edge, they can't fall back on the "it's a sign program" any longer. The Edge is marketed strongly for applications such as labels, decals, panel overlays, etc., and layers are a simple and invaluable means of designing.
posted
I guess some of us get stuck in our ways, and take time to adjust....you will enjoy the benefits and the differences....I just think its harder in a 1 man shop where you are so reliant on the one program.
I haven't been waiting for layers!! I always think its a problem when you import a Corel or illustrator file thats made up of lots of boxes that are not visble in those programs but show up in Omega!....maybe I am slow and its just me...!
posted
Henry, that's a problem with the person doing the exporting. We have our program set to ignore invisible layers when outputing or exporting.
With layers...
when you have a complex design with lots of objects, it's nice to be able to isolate objects to a separate (but visible) layer so you can lock them in place. Then your marquee select tool will pickup only those items not locked, and it's a lot faster than individually selecting the items you want.
when you're manually digitizing an image, layers allows you to click the image on and off so you can see your outline without the distracting image behind it.
you can look at specific items without the distraction of the surrounding objects (OMEGA does have a lot of "select by" choices, which helps but is not the same as being able to see JUST those items selected on the screen).
Maybe layers weren't important when the function was simply cutting shapes out of vinyl, but it's near top on my list of needed features when working with the printed output of the Edge (expecially expensive Lexedge!).
posted
I have never seen a program bring out so many opinions in my life. It always seems someone is critisizing or defending Omega. I use Omega everyday, make money with it and curse it. It is a strange relationship. I don't think I would go back to 6.2, but I look forward to a better Omega.
[ April 12, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Bob Boyd ]
-------------------- Bob Boyd A C Display Studios Atlantic City, NJ Posts: 54 | From: Atlantic City, NJ | Registered: Nov 2001
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Thank you. Layers are CRUCIAL to productive computer design.
I use them every single day in Illustrator and Photoshop.
I think a lot of the "poo-poo" on the revelence of layers comes from people being used to doing things a certain way for so long (the hard way).
I feel confident, that once they experience the productive powers of isolating objects on layers they will wonder how they ever got along without it, and will find it enhances their creativity by allowing them to manipulate their design in ways that before would only frustrate them, AND save them gobs and gobs of time and frustration trying to pick out an object or group of objects that are under several other objects.
You gotta trust me on this one guys....the omission of layers was a crucial mistake.
True, other sign programs don't have them either...some probably do...I don't know..but that is not a valid argument Glenn.
It's like saying back in the early eighties that Mercedes and BMW don't need anitlock brakes and airbags....because none of the American automakers feel the need to offer them.
It's all DESIGN software and as such should accomodate the designer in the best way possible.
Now, I do like many of Omega's features....but I gotta say....some are VERY user unfriendly in the way they were designed to work. The trimming feature where A minus B (but keep A) and all those goofy symbols is one of them....the visuals to my puny mind are confusing...not to mention they don't work correctly half the time.
The Drawing tool (pencil) is absolutely without a question the WORST designed way of creating shapes ever devised by man. A horrendous failure by the designers of this program.
I will ALWAYS draw my design in Illustrator or CorelDraw and then import it into Omega for this reason. Then, I'll tweak the design, round points, do outlines, etc in Omega prior to cutting.
Omega should have taken some clues on vector art creation from the pros....as it could have been a great program.
Whewwww. Ok then. there's my .50Cents.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I have been a Signlab user for about 8 years now and recently been using Graphics Advantage for my Edge output. If Omega is in any way still like GA you can keep it. Signlab is much more intuitive in the line of Corel and other Windows programs. I don't know what universe the Gerber people design in but it is not a logical one. Great Hardware though. Signlab has something like layers I would say, in that you can select by color. Alt-click on the color in the color palette and only those objects of that color are selectable.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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It all comes down to the limitation of computer language. I admit it is suposition on my part, but its based on observation and past experience.
I'm not so sure it is possible at this point to have what you are asking for. Layers are primarily used in paint programs such as PhotoShop and PhotoPaint. If it were easy enough to do, then why haven;t Adobe combined Illustrator and PhotoShop together? Why not a combination of CorelDraw and Photopaint? Why must there be two seperate programs?
As for Omega, it is designed for printing with the Edge. If layers were in some way implimented, how would the program recognize to use a particular spot color foil only once and not try to print it for each layer seperately, thereby wasting a lot of foil? Would you lose the ability to overprint colors
If you were writing the program, how would you solve these problems?
Its one thing to want something because you use it in another program which was created for an entirely different purpose. Its an entirely different matter to implement them.
As for a wish list for Omega, I have a long list. I agree that there are several areas where Omega falls short. Many of these are due to the fact that Gerber carried over several interfaces from GA to Omega with the intent of making the switch over easier for existing owners. I've always said that if was bad then, its bad now. The Detail Edit interface sucks. So does the Effects interface - both are carry-overs. And, I would like to see Omega be able to make use of transparent backgrounds.
But, in any case, Omega is still a heck of a lot better than GA.
Congratulations on your decision. It appears I’m a bit late to this party but I’ll chip in a few random comments and observations for you digest anyway.
As already stated, Omega was very unstable when it was first released. The folks at Gerber have done a very commendable job, IMHO; they admitted there was a problem, continually strive to correct these known issues, and are working diligently to not repeat this process again. One, of many issues, they have and continually face are the various machine configurations in which the software can be installed. Something you may want to check out is Gerber FastFacts # 3540 titled Video Cards with Known Compatibility Issues (http://www.gspinc.com/support/fastfacts/3540.htm) to see if your particular video card is listed. This will give you a heads up to some potential problems that may, and I emphasis may, be on the horizon. Perhaps a call to the techs at ND to review your machines “inards” may, again may, be a good time investment.
Over the last few months I have been working within shops that are running GA 6.0, GA 6.2, and Omega. Do earlier versions still do the job? Yes. And many shops prove this on a daily basis. However, continued support from Gerber is diminishing on the older packages and older operating systems. If you have an Edge or setup files for Edge production, Omega is must for faster productivity and increased functionality.
A word of caution – A new learning curve. Some of the most basic tasks that you are use to doing are now executed differently. This will probably cause some frustration initially (Henry can confirm this ). Some quick examples:
Selection of objects; in 6.x you simply clicked on the objects that you wanted. In Omega you will have to discipline yourself to hold the [SHIFT] key in addition to click select.
Justification; in 6.x the first object selected was the basis for justification; with Omega it is now the last object.
There are many of these little instances to be found. These simple tasks can lead to some disheartening moments when first attempting to learn the software. As others have indirectly stated above, one overcomes these small obstacles quickly and it soon becomes second nature as it is now with your 6.x software. A piece of advice I have expressed to many is get the Learning Guide out and go through it front to back. This should accelerate the learning process and may even expose you to thinking differently about certain tasks. And review the online help file and/or manual on a somewhat regular basis. You will surprised to find out what some of those less often used commands or tools actually do.
Is Omega the “be all-end all” program that we end users would like to have? No! Does it offer some benefits over 6.x? Yes! Here are a few things off the top of my head and in no particular order.
Long file name support, ability to export raster based graphics, more importing and exporting formats supported, number of objects limited by system resources, multiple undoes, ability to work in filled mode, able to have multiple views of an open file, able to have multiple files open (not launching multiple instances of Composer like 6.x and prior), text on the work surface (similar to CorelDRAW and others), more fonts, font management, warp (similar to enveloping in other programs), multiple tint positions fills for spot colors, multiple color fills for process fill, dockable/unduockable toolbars, context sensitive menus, ability to set intensity level on placed images, more zoom options, slice and dice copy, and color management. There are more I’m sure, just don’t recall them at this time.
Some of the new tools and functionality could be improved upon. Some of the existing tools and interface could be improved upon. But hay, the coders need something to work towards for the next service release and full version. Again, as mentioned above, name one program that is complete, stable, and available today.
There are many things I would like to see added, changed, or dropped from within this software. That can be done on another thread at some time in the future. One I will address since it mentioned above is layers.
As for the lack of layers in Omega; I’m one that desires for it to be there. Or perhaps “object control” if “layers” is not proper terminology for some. For just one, of many examples, in support of layers/object control, think of the following. If a design done totally with Edge printing contains 100 “objects”, how do I take object number 34 and move it in front of object number 67 efficiently? Move to front, move forward one, move to back, move back one is very restrictive and non productive. More control is this area is a must!
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Glen, You were mentioning potential problems dealing with layers, overprints, foil wasting etc. MacImprint uses layers in Illustrator just fine. You can use the same spot color on multipla layers and it will still print on one pass unless you assign a different heat setting to a stroke of the same color. You can use layers for Spectratone overprints or you can have the fills on the same layer and assign overprint there. In fact, MI uses a layer to assign the cut. You know exactly what will cut because it is on it's own layer. Nothing on the cut layer will print and nothing on other layers will cut, very simple. You can assign a layer not to print and it won't.
If you guys ever get a chance to see anyone using MacImprint, you should really take a few minutes and watch. I think you'd be amazed at it's capability and simplicity. After reading this whole discussion on Omega and the other assorted sign programs I'm just sitting her with a BIG smile on my face. Wouldn't trade my MacImprint , Illustrator and G4 for a maxed out PC and whatever software you could load on it.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1356 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks for all your time and opinions, All of the comments are informative and very helpful. I'm not the sharpest when it comes to learning new software so this is a little scary for me. I don't have a choice in using this software so I guess patience will have to be in order. Maybe we should have forum on this software, where one can post tips and suggestions, something like this one. It's Saturday afternoon now so I'm going home to relax, my brain is starting to hurt. thanks again!
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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That is what I was wondering. I look at how Omega functions, which to me is similar to how a screen printer seperates colors and prints them one layer at a time.
posted
Sorry, Glen, but there's a few problems with your assumptions.
You're assuming layers is a feature of bitmap editing programs and that is very far from the truth. You're correct that bitmap editing programs and vector editing programs are still two separate beasts, but layers has nothing to do with that.
You are already using and controlling layers in OMEGA by using "To Front" and "To Back". You may have dozens of "layers" going on, but you don't have the ability to lock some of them in place, or make them invisible for a minute while you look at everything else. It's not really a big deal, all vector-based illustration programs have that function, and I don't see how GA and OMEGA are not considered vector illustration programs.
Bill is absolutely right and if Macimprint had been around when we bought our Edge, we'd be using it, but I have too much invested on our PC side now; plus it's convenient to have both MAC and PC design stations going at the same time.
Anyway, the more discussion we have about what features are important to us, the more we may see them developed.
posted
Well, you are right about that Diane. Whenever I've had discussions with others about Layers, it has always been in the context of Photoshop and bitmap manipulation.
Omega does need to catch up with other software. SignLab for one. Being able to turn off objects of a particular color (as in SignLab) is needed. Also, the ability to create groups inside of groups is needed from a design perspective.
But, again as I am looking at it from a screen printer's point of view, how will Omega contend with color traps and bleeds. It seems to me that by having a lot of different objects in various layers with the same colors is going to negate color traps. Since vinyl is known to shift during the printing process, it seems to me that hairline gaps are inevitable.
Bill, since I've no experience with MI, how does it handle this kind of situation?
Sorry about keeping this thing off topic, but I’d like to see more discussion about the “layer” issue from other GA & Omega users. Below are selected excerpts from an archived correspondence sent to Gerber relative to “layers” and my thoughts on the subject. I believe Diane and I share similar frustrations and ultimate goals on this subject. Bill and other MacImprint users are already enjoying what some desire in Omega. (And Bill, we on the PC side experience the same thing when setting “Overprint” to a color, fill or stroke, in that it has to print separately from the standard and Overlap setting). So please, other users chime in, what are your thoughts???
*****
… image of layers is directed more towards digital printing than just the cutting of vinyl; however, I do see benefits for both applications. The thought of layers is not a unique concept and my vision of layers has been influenced by the use of such packages as Adobe Illustrator / PhotoShop, Corel Draw / PhotoPaint, and Macromedia Fireworks / Flash / Freehand and AutoCAD from AutoDesk.
As designs and layouts increase in complexity, it becomes very cumbersome and laborious to manipulate objects in the current state of OEMGA (just a continuation of GA). As it stands now, we have the ability to move selected object(s) to the front, to the front by 1, to the back, to the back by 1. This, combined with vinyl palettes and vinyl color, are, to the best of my knowledge, the only controls of “layering” as it is defined by OMEGA in its current state. This is severely limiting and extremely non-productive when compared to other object based programs, the amount of computational power that most computers are capable of delivering, and the additional graphic capabilities 32 bit code affords.
The vision of layers I have…
Layers contain object(s) and/or image(s) that are dependent on that layer only and are independent of other layers, unless linked by the end user.
Upon importing files that support layers, layer information is retained, and the user has the option of placing the imported file in front or to the rear of existing layers.
A layer managing window or docker allows the end user to directly manipulate the properties of layers.
End user has the option of “flattening” all layer information for the current supported .plt format.
Additional object(s) /image(s) order or move commands.
A bit of depth on the above comments. Layers contain object(s) and/or image(s) that are dependent on that layer only and are independent of other layers, unless linked by the end user.
The object(s) and/or image(s) on a layer can be manipulated and it is only reflected and relative to the layer it is placed within. If you send a selected object to the back, it goes to the rear of its layer only, not to the back of the entire job file. This would allow for complicated designs to be broken down to smaller, more manageable elements. It could also allow for the inclusion of “notes” or other non design essential elements on a separate, non printing or viewable layer, end user definable. Breaking complicated designs into more manageable elements allow for the possibility of quicker and more accurate design time and lower production cost.
Upon importing files that support layers, layer information is retained, and the user has the option of placing the imported file in front or to the rear of existing layers.
If a support file format contains layer information, the user should have the option of retaining layer information or not. User should also have the ability to place these layers before or after any existing layers, or the option to merge these layers directly between existing layers, albeit in a linear fashion.
There are times I believe it would be nice to have complete control of all imported layers independent of one another, (i.e. non-linear) however, I do not see it as a priority at this time. As an example; current OMEGA file has layer 1, 2, 3. Upon importing a .cdr file that has layers 1 and 2, the end user can place cdr layer 1 between OMEGA layer 1 and 2, but then places cdr layer 2 to the top of OMEGA layer 3. A layer manager would reflect the following
However, if the file format locks two layers together, that integrate must be followed by the importing filters.
A layer managing window or docker allows the end user to directly manipulate the properties of layers. (And objects within that layer as well)
This item would be key in my opinion to layers and their execution and management.
First, every object within the layer would be listed as a separate and editable item, whether it was an object or image. (limited editing on images naturally) Any modifications that could be implemented on the work surface should also be able to be performed in this docker window to any selected item(s) (via the selection of the item(s) than a right click to a context sensitive menu)(this would also entail that context sensitive menu issues be addressed). This docker would also allow the order of a selected object(s) to be changed by a simple drag and drop procedure. Additionally, object(s) can be linked to other object(s) and/or share common properties via this docker as well. Moving or duplicating object(s) to other layers should also be able to be completed here as well.
The layers themselves would have properties and should be controlled from this docker. Some layer options/properties would include, but not necessarily limited to…
visible or not
percentage of opacity
printable and/or plotable or not
editable or not
name of layer
duplication of selected layer(s)
linking of layer(s)
order of layer(s)
End user has the option of “flattening” all layer information for the current supported .plt format (or other layer supported formats).When saving the file as a .plt file (or other layer supporting formats) the user has the option of retaining or removing layer information.
Additional object(s) /image(s) order or move commands.
I would like to see additional order or move commands. Again, the four that are offered are very limiting with more complex designs or layouts. I would like to see the following offered in addition to the existing commands.
In front of. This would allow the end user to move selected object(s) / image(s) in front of a specified object or image.
In back of. This would allow the end user to move selected object(s) / image(s) in back of a specified object or image.
Reverse order. Would reverse the order of selected object(s) / image(s), reverse all remaining, non selected images within the layer, or, just reverse all object(s) / image(s) within the layer. All of which should be end user options.
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[ April 13, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Bob Gilliland ]
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Perhaps Gerber should consider turning Omega into a PC version of Illustrator and MI combined. I'd hate to be the programer assigned to pull that one off considering the work involved.
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I do tracing of bitmap images in Omega for maps sometimes and it would be nice to be able to lock the background image so I don't keep selecting it accidentally. I can do this in Illustrator but then I have to import the file and that isn't always a simple task. Also it would be nice to be able to select all strokes of a certain width instead of just by color. Other than these few small annoyances, I like Omega just fine.
I don’t know how excited I would be about turning Omega into a “PC version of Illustrator and MI combined” as this would appear to me as reinventing the wheel. Let the “illustration” software people worry about making the “illustration” software and let Gerber concentrate on making “plugins” to showcase there hardware from within those programs. Imagine how many Edge units come of the shelf if you could output direct from Freehand, Illustrator, or CorelDraw. And why stop there, how about SignLab and Flexi driving the Edge with more functionality then is currently offered? But than again, this lends itself to a whole new set of problems….
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Glenn, the program is dealing with colour traps and bleeds now with object upon object upon object. What's the difference? I know you're thinking about the screenprinting aspect, but we've used Freehand for 12 years to produce our output for screenprinting and, in fact, being able to review the layers individually actually assures you have everything set the way it should be.
Think of layers as sheets of acetate on your desk, sometimes you want to tape one layer down to keep it from sliding around while you work on the one above it, and sometimes you want to remove one for a minute to look at the relationship between two other ones - just like your colour separations in screenprinting except that the relationships may not be things of all the same colour but of some other logical relationship.
I'm sure there's some complexity to the programming, but probably not as much as some of the other features OMEGA does have. If it has been a staple of vector-based illustrating programs for a decade then it can't be the technical complexity of programming that's keeping it from being implemented. I suspect it's more likely the Gerber people don't realize how important this feature would be to us. And, that could well be because signmakers who don't use general illustrating programs don't know how functional layers are so they don't clamour for them.
Glenn, don't you find layers useful when working with CorelDraw? (I'm assuming it has a layers feature.)
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Actually, I don't use Layers all that often. I do everything in the default layer. The only time I've had need of it is when I'm doing color corrections or indexing colors in Photoshop for making color seperations.
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A very good friend of mine has had his Edge for about six years. He has been told BY GERBER that his service contract will not be honored anymore. Seems Gerber is running out of parts and will no longer be able to support the original Edge. Sure glad I didn't spend all that dough on something that won't be able to be fixed down the road.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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I think that Gerber's move in incorporating MacImprint as an Illustrator plug in was a wise move on their part. There is this huge Mac market of screenprinters, graphic designers, advertising agencys, etc. who have been using Illustrator for years. It basically does all they need it to do. For GSP to make a simple yet fully functional plug in instead ot trying to force feed a "complete" new program to this market would be an effort in futility. Hey, I admit it, we're content in our Mac world. If there is a fault with MacImprint it has been the inability for GSP to get their dealers to actually market it. I've been running my Edge with it for over 4 years now and have truely been amazed at the large part of my business that has been enhanced by it, even after 20 years in the non textile screen business. Having said that, if it had not been ported over to the Mac platform, there still wouldn't be on in my shop. I just inventoried my foils today. I have 86 cartridges either in use or in stock as I speak. Sorry to get on my soapbox here. This started out about the use of layers if I remember correctly..... Actually Glen, all our graphic files contain "layers" as in stacking layer of the graphic components. It's just the ability of placing those parts on actuall "layers" makes it much easier to work on parts without selecting others that can be on a locked or invisible layer. If I flatten a file with 10 layers it will print no differently than it would if the layers were in tack, (except for the designated cut layer). Traps are handled by giving a shape a small stroke and selecting it for overprint. I usually use this feature on what will be my cut line also to avoid the evil hairline showing.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1356 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Sure glad I didn't spend all that dough on something that won't be able to be fixed down the road.
Yea, I’m glad as well. Cause if you did you would be complaining about what bank to use to store all the money the machine makes. and I’m not really interested in hearing about that. So Thank You for not spending a few “hundred” to make “thousands”. [I]You keep “painting with passion” while I “print for profit.”
Now, before you get bent out of shape, the above is stated in jest.
Perhaps someone here with a business degree can inform us what the proper, or state that as “book”, length of time is for ROI in regards to capital expenditures for machinery. I believe most operate on a 36 month time frame. For myself, if I can’t turn it in an 18 to 24 month time period, I have no business owning it. Either sub it out or don’t offer the service. Egos are nice but its tough to get the mortgage company to accept it as payment in full. I don’t have to personally make everything that is sold.
If, in a six year time period, the machine hasn’t paid for itself and reaped substantial profit, then perhaps your friend shouldn’t have bought one either. If, however, it has produced a higher return than other equipment he utilizes, then he is probably happy that he didn’t share your thought process when purchasing.
What is the expected life cycle of a lettering brush? A hammer? Your vehicle? The computer you are using to access this board? The more “technology” that is in a given tool, the faster it is going to become antiquated, hence, shorter life cycles.
Its about risk and reward. Those that invest in new technology usually can achieve greater profitability, either at higher selling cost or lower production cost, and on that rare occasions, both, then most others. However, it is traditionally a short lived advantage, as newer, cheaper, technology comes along and maintenance of existing equipment increases, thus, reversing the afore mentioned advantage. And , it’s a vicious circle. Some keep chasing it, others hop on and off, and some elect to never jump in.
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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To quote Glenn "Perhaps Gerber should consider turning Omega into a PC version of Illustrator and MI combined". If you ran a Mac emulator on your Pc, wouldn't you have that? So instead of buying that very expensive PC software you could just use they programe you probably already have and a plugin. Hmmm, maybe thats why Gerber doesn't make a plugin for the PC??
-------------------- Roy H.Somers Signs Of Distinction 609-652-6507 Oceanville, New Jersey Posts: 107 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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The company I work for (regular job) is a very large screenprint company....They use Illustrator exclusively for creating their screen art, traps and all. Layers is an integral part of how they lay the art out.
Photoshop and Illustrator have different focal points, which is why they aren't "one" package....although those lines are being blurred rapidly as Illustrator has more raster capabilities than ever before and conversely, Photoshop has more vector drawing attributes than ever before.
And don't forget marketing strategy. Why sell only one "all-in-one" program to an individual customer, when you can sell them two?
All major drawing programs have layers capabilities. They all draw vector style objects just as sign programs do. It's awesome to actually know where one object actually lies in relationship to another rather than guessing and trying to toggle them forward and backward, and then try to send them back in the right level. With layers...they are exactly where you want them and instantly accessable. It's a powerful feature that once you use it, you'd just be amazed at it's usefullness.
Bill - - not to start a platform war...but the home office uses MacImprint with their Macs....and it doesn't hold a candle to the PC version of Omega. Not nearly as many functions as the PC version. They're always complaining about it and wishing they had a PC hooked to it. And this is coming from die-hard Mac'rs like yourself. The guy that runs the Mac Imprint came from a prior company that used Macs, but had an Edge hooked up to a PC with Omega. Having compared both programs...he would take the PC version hands down.
Now, I know you're gonna ask me "like what?" So, I'll try and get a list around.
I gotta be honest....Mac's don't impress me much. I'm on the phone with the home office artists and they will open the same file I'm opening at the same time....and I'll say, "ok, I have it opened." And they'll say, "dang that was fast, I'm still waiting."
They use G4's and I'm not even into a Pentium 4 yet. But, speed isn't everything...and of course it comes down to personal preference AND what you're used to I'll agree.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Rob, The first year I owned an Edge, I grossed $198,000 with it. It was a stupid thing for me to do, wasn't it.
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As to the layers debate and Todd's comment about Omega not having layer support, again, I stand by my comment that Omega is not an illustration program. No "vinyl-cutting" software is going to compare to Illustrator, Corel, or PhotoShop. Neither Omega, SignLab, nor Flexi is capable of doing what the aforementioned are capable of. Nor are the illustration programs capable of doing all that Omega, SignLab and Flexi are capable of. To make the comparison between Omega and Illustrator/Corel/Photoshop is not realistic. Neither SignLab nor Flexi compare to Illustrator/Corel/Photoshop. Its not that one is better than the other, its just a simple matter than each is designed for a different purpose.
As Bob pointed out earier, Omega has two things to contend with - vinyl and color printed on vinyl. Neither Corel, Illustrator, nor Photoshop will deal with multiple substrates. Omega does. Having to deal with this creates a whole new set of difficulties when writing software.
Does Omega have a ways to go as far as features and ease of use are concerned? Yes, absolutely. Should Omega have better Object Control (i.e. - layers)? Yes. But even so, Omega is still the best program currently available to drive the Edge. And, if Gerber doesn't stay on its toes and strive to continually improve, it won't stay that way for long.
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Todd,
quote: Photoshop and Illustrator have different focal points, which is why they aren't "one" package....
So does Omega. And, it does not have the same focal points as Photoshop or Illustrator. Its only focal point is to use the Edge to print on vinyl.
With time, that will change. Of that, I'm certain. But, even Adobe's software didn't reach its current state of development in just under two years.
And yes, I understand what you say about layers and its use for creating film positive for screen printing. But, Illustrator doesn't have to contend with more than one substrate being used in the design. Having only one substrate to deal with is easy. But, have more than one substrate combined with similar spot colors, you are going to give programers migraines trying to figure out how to write the software.
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I'm not saying all these things in an attempt to defend Omega. What I am attempting to do point to what should be reasonable expectations of any software given its intended purpose and market. And, given Omega's uniqueness to its intended purpose, comparing it to other "illustration" programs isn't realistic.
[ April 14, 2002, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
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