I have to ask a question about doing business. I'm not sure what to do sometimes and need some input if you care to give some.
Typical day, customer calls and ask for a price for whatever. I now go to my estimate program and give a price. They are usually stunned at the price even when I priced them before estimate, so I thought in the beginning to draw out a sketch to present to them first and then the price, but that's after who knows how many hours or tweaking to get it to where I'm happy with the layout.
I'm finding that way more time is going in the trash than I want to sacrifice for the drawings when they decide it's to much.
I live in a little town of about 2000 people and before I should up and started educating them on signage they had no idea of a decent design.
Had to give a little background first, so my question is what's the best way to do this step. I've tried to get deposits, but that only works if they're in the shop not a phone call. I did one the other day. Spent about 3 hours designing. Crossed my fingers as I presented it with the total cost to watch the customer pass out. (not really). Then she says I have one for x amount which was about five times less than mine. The quote she got she had no design and not even all the cost involved in the total project anyway.
Now I'm starting to ramble. I need to know what you guys do to stop wasting time designing and run off potential customers when they call for a price and never know what they're gonna get when pricing on the phone. I can't make them all come in and I can't draw for free either with the hopes of getting the job.
Help!
Thanks,
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Chuck, I feel your pain! It ain't easy. I have a couple of things though. How long have you been in busniess in your town? Our shop is also in a smaller town. Not as small as yours but small by most standards. It's about 11 or 12 thousand now but when Mike Jackson started the shop it was probably only 4000 or so. Reputation plays a big part. The more signs you do locally and the more satisfied customers you have, the easier it is to sell your work with out a layout first.
We rarely do a layout without a deposit first for all the reasons you mention. For those who call on the phone, I tell them we can take a deposit over the phone with an American Express card or Visa or MC. Once we have money in hand, we knock ourselves out to produce a layout that will work for them. I have never had a customer that we have not been able to please in the end. Some take longer than others but that's another story.
People are always amazed at the cost of a sign whether it is flat painted, sandblasted or carved or routed. They are amazed at the price of vehicle vinyl and magnetics. None of us wants to run off potential customers but cost is cost and price is price. This is where reputation comes into play. Most of our busniess is word of mouth. We do very little advertising. When some one calls and we quote an estimated price, they pretty much know that they will get something what they will love and will work for them, because chances are they have 4 or 5 friends who have bought from us or have seen a dozen or more of our signs in town.
A good portfolio of your work is important for those who do walk in the door. It gives them something to look at. Now I'm rambling. Hope this helps some. Good luck.
This is such a depressed income area that I understand that they need to save money and so do I. It's the part of spending my time designing for free that starting to become a problem. So, thanks for the advice and have a great day.
See ya
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
When they ask "How much is a sign?" I usually politely mention that question is as abstract as "How much is a car?"
Without too much info though, you could give a price range, from flat painted on MDO to carved and gilded. Find out their budget. They migh want the time spent on the sign rather than the design.
If I design something and can't sell it to the customer, my kids end up paying for it. Use the time wisely!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Chuck, you got two excellent answers there. Sounds like you already knew designing before the price was set wasn't going to work. You just have to stop doing it to yourself.
It's common and understandable for people to want to see what they're paying for before they cough up the money. The first goal is to get them to commit to a specific sum (at least verbally), then design up to that amount with the understanding you WILL be getting their order. That'll fix about half your problems.
You may even decide that under a certain threshold, jobs do not warrant a design approval process because there's simply not enough budget for you to extend that luxury. It's getting pretty common around our shop to have clients pre-pay for jobs under $100 and trust our judgement. (afterall, we are professionals).
Once you step up into a little higher price bracket where the client has expressed a desire for something above ordinary, it's a pretty small step to say "This job would benefit from some design time to explore it's potentials"...and go right on to "Our design rate is $65/hour, how about giving me an hour to show you some things?"
It may be the first time they have been told such a thing. They'll either agree or they won't. If they balk at that, you HAVE to let them go, gracefully with the invitation to resume the offer if they change their mind. I had a client confide in me once that I was selected because I was the only person who explained the design process and expressed a desire to make their job special. If you do it with sincerity, it makes you stand out as a person of integrity. Go get 'em!
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Usually people want a price on the phone because they have no idea whats invloved, or they are shy, or they dotn want to put any one out..
Part of a great marketing program is to get them into your office. The home field advantage. We call this first step in the process "getting the appointment" so you can show them your "Added Value Package" so they can make a fair evaluation of the "Proposal". Its just like baking a cake. All ingredients must be there in the proper order or the cake will not turn out just right. Usually your customer will disqualify themselves by pricing over the phone. I belive it is our job to educate ourselves to the correct terminology that will get "them" into "our" ball field.
Curtis
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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ok...simple sign pricing...(vehicles and boats need to be seen dont quote prices for these with out laying eys on them)..ask them how big the sign is, what they want it on, alum, mdo, corplast, or a window or wall. now you got control of the conversation.....so now your 10 seconds into this, get the sq. ft. of the sign they want if it on a substraight you need to buy then take sq.ft. times $10. now your 30 sec in conversation. for corplast signs cut the figure in half so its now $5 a sq.ft. also you need to tell them this line, "ARTWORK, DESIGN TIME, LOGOS AND SPECIAL COLORS ADD TO THE PRICE! and if they can come to your office you can be more precise in pricing their sign. now you got at best 2 minutes invested, you will either have them show up or they will continue making phone calls. either way you gave them an idea of sign price and you didnt scare em off by asking for money for your time, which they dont want to give up in the 1st place , hence...the phone call....gives them a buffer between you and them. now youve done all you can do for them, its in their lap, make them make the decision....and you can get back to the work at hand.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've noticed that the word "design" scares a lot of folks off. I use the words "artwork" or "logo" at times. They don't seem to bat an eye with a term they're used to hearing. Reckon that is a call you make in your area, considering your clients.
You can make a big production about not wanting to waste their time, in your initial introduction, and mention that you're busy as well. Ask them if they are ready to get it running, or if they are just shopping around. Ask them what they expect the transaction to be like, then tell them the real deal hehehe. Tell them, you'll be right back and go to the back of the shop for coffee. When you come back, if they are still there, ask them if they would like to join you. Have a sign over the pot that says, "for paying customers." Tell them the first cup of coffee is included in the deposit.
Letting them relax and conveying to them it's not supposed to be a difficult thing to get a sign done, may win them over.
Over the phone, just tell them when they are ready to order, to come on in. But, that you don't want to waste their time or yours over the phone. In the sign business, not seeing is deceiving...you don't want to overcharge them, and you don't want to work for free.
Explain to them a sketch is sompn you put together so you can double check your time and cost estimates and record dimensions. I never hand these out, they would go straight to another shop. They are invited to look-see if there is a question about the execution, other wise, I don't consider the sketch sompn they need to have, unless they want to buy it as a momento to hang in their shop after the job is done. (first time sign buyers get excited sometimes, hehehe)
If they think a sketch is an easy thing to do, basically a freebee, tell them you expect one on your desk the next morning, complete with exact dimentions, color swatches, fonts, pms colors and a materials list for execution and installation, phone numbers for the suppliers, three tier pricing for all the items in question and all the proper forms filled out, hehehe! About the time they start to pick their jaw up off the floor, add, "typed, double spaced, with a cover sheet, and in a binder would be nice."
If they laugh and pull out their check book, you have made a friend. If they leave, it's just as well.
posted
i started my biz in a small town in South Dakota -- 26 people. There are only 1200 in the county (Campbell County), so i know what you mean about small towns and people tight with money.
all the above advice is good, and i'll give you some more.
go to them.
if you're trying to get your business going in an economically depressed area, service can make a difference. in the three hours you've "wasted" (spent, but not spent well) you could have driven over to their farm or business and met them in person. its harder to say "no" to somebody you can see (that's why door-to-door salesmen made sales).
When you visit a customer you learn a lot about them -- are they driving a 1986 Ford Ranger or a 2002 GMC 6-wheeler with 5-CD changer and a brand new horse trailer? did they just add on a two-bay truck wash or did the silo burn down three years ago and nobody's bothered to tear it down? you might push SignGold to one customer and CoroPlast to the other... but you can't tell which is which over the phone.
You also see opportunities to sell other signs. "Yes, i can paint your name on your mailbox for $19, but that horse trailer would sure look swell with your name in 12" high gold letters... and we can put each horse's name in script above each stall."
Also, while you're meeting with them, you can do some very rough sketching and get things going without committing the time it takes on the computer. (everything drawn on the computer looks "permanent")
I never, NEVER, give prices to new customers over the phone (unless i've met with them and established their budget first).
i'll post something about "sketching" a proposal in a new message topic.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Along with the good advice you've received here, I like to add the suggestion of a three-tier approach. Take one of your designs (or make one up) and do three versions of the same thing - one simple modest version, one with some additional complexity, and one with all the bells and whistles. Attach price ranges to each of the three and use these as sales aids to determine where their budget puts them. You can even use this with phone inquiries either by faxing your sales sheet showing the three layouts, or to give them colour you can email a jpeg or pdf file for them to view.
If you do carved/sandblasted signs as well as flat painted/vinyl, do a separate three-tier offering for each.
This approach will help you educate them about sign prices and let you zero in on their budget without spending a minute on their specific layout. Once you've both decided that it's a sandblasted sign in the mid-range that they're prepared to budget for, you can take the deposit and start your sketches. And, if turns out that a low-end corex sign is more what they had in mind you've wasted very little time.
posted
Anither good bit of advice I picked up somewhere, was that a rough sketch may not seem like much to you when a computer drawing is still fairly quick, but in very little time you can get approval on a simple layout & impress the client with the most basic drawing. Not everyone has the sense of scale & ability to anticipate cap height/line length ratios that we do, so do some free drawings when you get someone in the door. Just do them in 2 minutes. Another minute with a colored pencil or 2 & make the sale, get the deposit & let them leave before sitting at the keyboard. Then I like Joe Rees's comment about low end signs will not warrent a final computer drawing approval or revision stage. On the bigger jobs, let them see a computer sketch after you got the deposit. If they saw & approved a quick pencil sketch, then no design fee may be needed. Minor changes may also be free just to insure that high dollar clients are as happy as possible when they pick up your work.
Your problem has been a frustration shared by everyone doing buisness, not just in sign work.
What we did to solve this problem with magnetic sign pricing was to make a sheet up in advance showing 10 different levels of layout and price.
We start with a $49.00 layout (6 inch by 18 inch magnetic with Helvetica lettering 1 color) up to $195.00 for a 4 color process nice artistic layout with logos and pazazzzz!
The layouts are on a sheet of laminated printer paper. When the customer comes in, asks for magnetic signs, we show them the sheet and let them pick the price range they want.
This has worked so well for us that we are designing a sheet like this for every market area of sign work we do. Banners, semi trucks, realty, job site and so forth.
I realize there will be some challenges doing this for, say, every type of pick up truck lettering, for instance, but I feel it would greatly reduce a lot of problems for the customer and me as well.
In business when one has a frustration like this, and there are a lot of frustrations, then one finds the answer to make the frustration go away so it never comes back.
We also quit giveing estimates....we now give "promises, you should see their face twist up when we tell them that. You will have to read the book E MYTH CONTRACTOR to understand a new way of pricing and satisfying customers.
I was just thinking about that recently. I know what you mean. Some times its tough to figure a bid without seeing what a sign should look like. So we go ahead and design something, spec it out & inadvertently let the potential customer know that we have; without first advising them that we would prefer some kind of payment for such.
Its not a profitable way to do business. And that point needs to be drilled into our heads! Which brings up the question I thought about asking. "What size drill bit should I use?"
Anyway. If you want help on pricing you should visit Mark Smith's EstimateSoftware website. (Merchant page) He keeps making improvements & the latest upgrade (v1.91) is worth the download. Also available is an addendum to the manual in pdf format. Very informative reading even if you don't have his program yet. I really like the module "repeat labor items". That can be used to set up a specified initial design rate for what this topic is about. And with that set as part of the estimate package, you're less likely to forget to use it.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Small town, eh. I like Scooters approach. Go see them, figure out what they want and what else they could use. People like personal attention and knowing that you are interested in their business.
Here is the approach I take when we get the "how much is a sign?" phone call out of the blue. I start asking about where they will display the sign, how long it will be displayed, what kind of business is this for. Their reaction to these questions will let you know if you have the decision maker on the other end of the phone or someone that has been told by the decison maker to "get me a few quotes for that banner we are thinking about". In a small market area they likely have seen every sign in the county. Use the information you have gathered from their answers to refer them to a sign similar to the one you think they want (and hopefully one you have made!) Ask them if they want something like the sign in front of Louie's Lumberyard. They will now give you a yes or a "no thats not what I had in mind" Tell them you will look up the cost of that project and bring them a estimate tomorrow for a similar sign for them.
You have accomplished a lot in a less than 5 minute phone call. You have information about what they need, you have agreed on a sign to focus on as an example of what they should be aiming for. And you have created an opportunity for them to meet you face to face as well as solving their need for a number to think about.
In a small community using a referral project works for vehicle lettering, temporary banners, site signs, pop signs and just about any project they are going to ask you about.
You have lots of good advice in this thread. Now you have to figure out which approach works best for you.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Quoting prices is not a waste of time, but designing on speculation almost always is.
Rick Sacks hit me right between the eyes with his comment about how our kids pay for all of our freebies.
The last couple of paragraphs of Linda's post pretty much sums up my attitude these days. However, hypocrite that I am, I recently did a nice third-party design (on spec), which now resides in my morgue file, in the hope that someday I'll be able to sell it to a more serious customer.
I'm a pretty good signmaker, actually, I'm a very good signmaker. But I've been broke most of the time because of lousy business practices, such as keeping my own books, and giving up my time to undeserving, tire-kicking strangers who shouldn't be in my shop in the first place.
I've made two moves recently to rid myself of the low rent customers. First, I moved my shop from the storefront location to a more industrial one, and my hours are by appointment. This has eliminated over 90% of the walk-in's, and has made me more efficient.
Second, I pulled my yellow pages ad. Now the calls that I receive are mostly repeats or referrals.
The next important thing I will do is to post on my office wall the policies by which I should be operating. So that, in my moment of weakness, I can look up at it, draw strength from it, and say: "oh, so you want to see a sketch of that idea? JINGLE YOUR PURSE!"
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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