Even if I wanted to sell to you, I can't. We market strictly to Canadian businesses.
I have been with ND GRAPHICS since, 1986. In that time, I have occupied a number of different positions...Customer Service Rep, National Customer Service Manager, Key Account Manager, and Marketing Manager -- to name the most relevant ones. Needles to say, I have been involved in my share of warranty claims.
Not all claims were successful. This does not necessarily mean that the customers weren't well supported by the manufacturer. Successful claimants always managed to substantiate their claims with documentation, samples for analysis, etc. More often than not, they were guided through this process by ND GRAPHICS, who act as a kind of advocate in these cases.
In all my experience, I have only seen three companies (3M, Gerber, and SERICOL) support claims to the full extent which you describe. They don't make widespread practice of it, they don't publicize it and they will never, ever make a policy of it...but it does happen. Each are well within their rights to force you to convince them of the legitimacy of your claim. (You would be surprized at what some people try to pull.) But -- in the end -- they listen to reason and seek solutions because they are commited to things like their reputation and brand promise.
Industry leaders invest oodles of resources in their brands. They are generally smart enough to know better than to have a bunch of dissatisfied people complaining about them.
In your case, George (or Pierre), is it possible that your distributor wasn't an effective advocate?
[ March 19, 2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
As a major Canadian Distributor you must have a fair idea about what percentage of the market calandered vs cast vinyl has? I don't mean in dollar terms but in terms of yardage?
Regards,
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
I do. As you might imagine, there is a cost to developing and maintaining market knowledge - and knowledge is a competitive advantage in many ways...So you'll have to forgive me for not sharing details. It's nothing personal.
This message will self destruct in 15 seconds...
Hey Rosemary!
My two year old daughter reminds me of you (aren't I glad I didn't write that the other way around!)...pretty, smart, mischievous and loves Pooh!
So, tell me...
Have you ever read "The Tao of Pooh?" (I hear it is brilliant).
[ March 19, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh! I do miss the Sparcal semigloss days...worked with it for 10 years. all of the glossy vinyls that are sold nowaday, for me it's a calamity. cameras hate that stuff like the palgue. Got to spray coat most of what we do. Why? oh! Why? did Avery stoped the production? A5 to me isn't a viable solution. Had a few failure with it. Bad Bad...Hate when this hapends... We used to print on promo+, cutting the vinyl from the rool, can't do that with A5...the backing is too thin and the corners will curl...could go on and on...the changes between the "remplacement part".
seem I had to vent eh? Thank! you for letting me the chance to do so.
I haven't try the PMF vinyls. But i think that, depend on the climat and the handling, most calendered vinyl will stick on a well prepared coro for a long long time.
É
-------------------- Élaine Beauchemin scrip Lettrage Scripsit inc. St-Hubert, Quebec, Canada www.scripsit.net Posts: 1096 | From: Saint-Hubert, Québec, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
well i got my price book out here...as for your idea that using hp vinyl and makin more money...seems a little far fetched on baseball signs. roll of 20"x 50 yrd blue BANNERCAL is $57.00, roll of avery A8 same size and color is $204.00, 3M is $191.00 and ORACAL 751 IS $150.00. now i aint the smartest turnip in the patch....but $57.00 will get more money in my pocket when that roll is used up then if i start out droppin $204 for the good stuff....now lets see i already made..$147.00(more then you) by buyin the roll for $57 then you did when you shelled out the $204. and like i said boys...corplast is cheap crap..so why in ala's name would you want to cover it with expensive vinyl....be like paintin a YUGO WITH $3000 WORTH OF FLIP FLOP PAINT!!!!!!! and iam sure you would do that.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
To add another flip to this story, is the difference between GERBER/Scotchal 220 and the automotive grade highperformance 3M available thru the Automotive distribution side (ie same film as in the roll goods purchased thru autobody supply.) in 92 when i first bought my gerber system, i bought a lot of 3M/Gerber hp film.. and used it as a cut graphic, where i would use the auto motive grade film as an added stripe.. after 5 years the gerber is toast and the auto looks like new.... so even 3M has different levels of HP films.... avery film is used in the roll goods used by Pro-Stripe, and there silver will only last a max of 5 years before it looks like milktoast....
But Corey,, still use calendered on coro-plast... Like Joey says... you cant polish a turd!
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey - enuff bickerin already - -I'll lay Oracal allnight long & make more money to boot - -38 bucks for 15" x 50 yard roll - 78 bucks for 24" material - just bought 2 logs today - several thousand dollars worth of work will be made off this - vinly is the least expensive (besides App tape) part of the job - still, I will stack up the Oracal against anything out there - never had a failure yet from Oracal - anybody care for a weeding comparison - ??????? p.s., just finished 7 4x8's tonight - all in Oracal ------Carl Oh yea - did have some premature fading of 031 Red a few years back; but I think they solved that problem. Tubelite told me it was a Nationwide problem for them.
[ March 21, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
carl...you can keep all that ora-crap, now i never bought the 751 so i cant say anthing good or bad about it, but the 651 is nasty. i cut with rolands and that stuff will eat blades. if i use a blade on oracal 651 it wont cut for s**t on any of the hp vinyls. i only buy it when i got no choice....like redoin a job that had some of their colors on it.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Salut, Elaine: Am I correct in assuming that you do a fair amount of set design and display work? For short-term outdoor / promotional / display applications, you might want to give ULTRAMARK E-Series + a try...at CDN$49.95+ per roll it can't be beat -- and there are a few nice matte colours in the colour selection. Please contact customer service at our toll-free number to request a colour chart.
OP! On average, how long does it take you to weed 50 yards of vinyl? Obviously, your answer is going to depend on factors such as the type of work you do, the fonts you use most, etc., etc., right? I'm sure you are willing to concede that the type of vinyl you choose will also infleunce the amount of time you spend weeding...
How much is your time worth?
On average, what percentage of the cost of your jobs is vinyl vs. labour and overhead?
Wouldn't your time be better spent on activities like marketing and sales, rather than on weeding vinyl?
Isn't it possible that the $147 you "save" by buying the cheap stuff actually costs you sales revenue and profit? Perhaps your business is different (different clientele, different cost structure, etc.)...but why be so quick to dismiss this perspective out of hand? Del: Nice to make your e-quaintence...
I think you will find that Gerber/3M 220 Series metallics are only rated for (going by memory) 3 years. This has always been the case, to my knowledge. My guess is that 3M didn't/don't want metallic film from their Gerber channel competing with metallic film from their Automotive / Trim-line channel...so you are wise to stick with 3M Automotive film for your specific application.
Make sense?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
jon...aparently you never weeded any other brands of vinyl...i have been at this since 93...and ive run a lot of rolls of vinyl. as for weeding some are better then others yes...but once you know how to weed and Do it fast...the vinyl dont matter....the hp vinyls weed nice..except for the gold and silver and any other metalic ones...there to thin and tear...ive tryed differnt brands but all the same. and your gona tell me that i waste $147.00 in time because i buy the calendered....jon..you been behind a desk to long....and you believe what your told to say....2 bad things. i love GMI,BANNERCAL & AVERY calendered vinyl, weeds great,is "plyable" enough to be forgiving...stretch a piece of hp..and see how much time you spend trying to get it to lay flat!ive used PERMACAST hp since 93....also sparcal hp, avery hp,and gregory hp. now lets get down to reality here...their are only 4-5 MANAFACTURES of all the vinyl...its then CONVERTED to another name...so dont tell me i havent used the same vinyl you sell. as for oracal...it just might be me...i DONT LIKE IT!!! because ive used other vinyls that are BETTER. but thats why they make chevys and fords. and jon...that $147.00 is better in my pocket....not in my vinyl suppliers. i worked in the automotive sector for 15 years jon...and i was an outside salesman..boy did i know my lines....vinyl is like car batteries and filters....as for batteries...only 5-6 MANAFACTURES...and how many NAMES of batteries have you seen? filters are the same... as for your 3 words..yes i could CON my cutomers into beliving that i had the most SUITABLE (auto part) and that their getting the best PERCEIVED value for their money.....gee...just change the product and it all sounds the same....i should quit now..think i made my point...
[ March 21, 2002, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
My sinister plot to brainwash the masses has been foiled...and my secret identity revealed.
You'll pay for this, Old Paint!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, he DID getcha, Jon. Now........can you name the 5 that actually own their own coating lines?
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
3M ULTRAMARK (GB) CATALINA GRAPHIC FILMS (LAS VEGAS) AVERY (PAINSVILLE) MACTAC (BELGIUM) ORAFOL (GERMANY) RITRAMA/DURAMARK (ITALY and USA) FLEXCON (USA) and (I THINK) NESCHEN (GERMANY), ARLON (USA), and possibly LUCKY GOLDSTAR (KOREA).
WHERE DID YOU COME UP WITH 5?
[ March 21, 2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry. Should have clarified, I meant 5 American. There's still one missing.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
SORRY, CAN'T THINK OF THE FIFTH...WILL PROBABLY KICK MYSELF WHEN I HEAR IT.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Geroge, THANK YOU. Finally someone that doesn't look at me funny when I say I will only use cast on dirt track cars. (I know, I know, you still look at me funny for wearing my hat backwards. ) Last season, I did a car for a 16 year old. I was at the track opening night and watched him take his first lap ever. I got nervous when I saw him rub another car hard in the opposite turns during his first lap. He came into the pits, I walked over expecting to be redoing at least the number the next day. I was thrilled when I looked at the vinyl and it had paint from the other car imbedded into it. These cars only last 1 season (if that). Most are kept inside (to be worked on every week) and re-skinned during the off season. The drivers don't care if it's 6 month or 6 year vinyl, just as long as it lasts more than 1 lap.
BTW George, there was a little local meet here last weekend. I got yelled at because no one recognized me without the hat. Guess that's my trademark now, huh?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
jon...i see your pic...and i think of mr. meagi from the karate kid movies....hehehehe know any kung fu? as you see i dont have a pic....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's alright, Joe. Glenn Taylor has posted your pic in the past, I believe.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
i hope you realize i was just bein funny..nothin serious intended.......i told steve deveruau he looks like wild bill hickcock.....there a pic of me on the post STEVE AND BARB ARE AT THE BEACH....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic