posted
I quoted a company on some 10 mil. coroplast signage for the homerun fence at a local ball diamond. The quote was for Macal 98oo series however, I keep thinking about the possibility of doing it in Calendered vinyl for a bit less $$$ (for myself of course).
An off brand, PMF, has a 5 year outdoor calendered vinyl at say $1 yard.....will this bite me on the butt 6 months- 2 years down the road???
I do not work with calendered because I want something that is premium usually.
I know that coroplast and Calendered vinyl are often synonomous with each other but dont do alot of Coro. either.
someone out there tell me that there has been strides made to the Calendered vinyls out there.
posted
WHEN YOU FIGURE "BY-THE-FOOT", IT'S ALMOST FOOLISH NOT TO ALWAYS USE THE BEST GRADE VINYL AVAILABLE. IT'S REALLY A NICKLE-AND-DIME DIFFERENCE. WHY TAKE THE CHANCE! ONE SCREWED UP SIGN WILL LOSE YOU A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN THE VINYL PRICE DIFFERENTIAL!
posted
I personally would not stand behind any coroplast sign for more than one year never mind five years.Paint the boards and apply uv varnish to protect the art work.Hope I helped!!!!
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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The weeding and prep hassle difference would make up the difference i think. My weed girl can weed 3M almost as fast as she can lift it off the paper. She can tell the difference when the job is cut using the cheaper stuff. Cheaper stuff makes her cuzz. She dont have a clue that there is cast or calandered.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Randy. I would do it in wood however, 10mil coroplast is their specific request. I should assume that if they want 10mil then they want the signs to last (more than 4-6 mil anyhow)
What a difference in opinions here.....I am still left indecisive.
I've started using a bit of Oracal's 651 series for that type of application. It is 2.5 ml and very glossy, supposed to last to 5 years. I'ts about $1.70 per yard.
I get it from a supplier in Alberta, if you want the address, email me.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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My main beef is that I don't want some kind of vinyl falling off the sign sooner than later or shrinking at a rapid pace. There most likely will be a whole whack of sponsors for the fence in the future. The calendered supplier is 10 minutes away and the Macal supplier is 35 minutes away and Downtown. I have my own business but, am still FT employed and am not home for deliveries.
Have you ever heard the expression, "Buyer beware"?
It might surprize more than one of you to learn that 9800 IS CALENDERED VINYL. The manufacturer (and/or their distributor) has successfully left you with the false impression that this is cast film by billing it as "5-7 year, High Performance", etc, and recommending it for applications such as fleet graphics - for which most sane people will only ever recommend cast film. ORACAL appear to be taking this very same approach with a product called 751, only they're charging nearly "cast" prices for it.
Note further that claims of "life expectancy" do not constitute a warranty, should the product fail.
To my knowledge, there is only one manufacturer in the industry who offers a truly solid warranty and stands behind it. You pay a premium for this sort of dependable piece of mind...3M.
[ March 18, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Jon, Avery does too, BUT.......none of them mean a thing. Does it matter if there's a "film replacement" warrantee on a job if you have to spend 8 hours on a removal and then recut and install all over again? The film is the least of the problems. 3M has an incredibly BAD rep for film failures. Their metallics fail at a regular rate, and 3M has never felt the need to reformulate. They have the body shop business virtually locked in with other products and the film business goes along with it. Those who know me from the old days are aware that I know of what I speak. 5 years as the field training rep for Arlon.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Your experience and resulting perception of 3M's product performance and reputation for warranty support are entirely the opposite of my own...and I've been around wee while, myself. I will add that ND GRAPHICS offers both 3M and Avery, so it isn't like I'm somehow lacking perspective.
With respect, we will have to agree to disagree...but I am right and you are wrong (as usual).
[I don't really have to put a smiley there, right...you know I'm kidding]
Bruce:
You mean "hockey puck" don't you? Oh, ya it is for a baseball diamond...
For the record, I wouldn't use cast film on a Coroplast sign, either. I just thought that the marketing practices of certain calendered film manufaturers deserve to be called into question. If Corey was a bit confused, others might be as well.
[ March 18, 2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
WOW! After reading these replies I still have to ask the question.."Do we know what the best vinyl is for the job?"...ANY JOB.
What a difference of opinion (I guess thats why I like Letterville so much) but if there are replies from crappy calendered to 3M HP, I am still bewildered.
I have not used Oracal before but, seems to be the choice for some on certain applications: banners, coro and such. Suelynne- e-mail me back!!
The sign faces out from the diamond, not in so there is no chance of baseballs damageing it.
I just wanna know how long calendered vinyl will last before my phone rings for me to re-do the job. And if Macal is calendered too then, why spend the extra $4 yard lets say if they both are so called 5 years outdoor life.
No matter what, the job(s) arent getting the premium Avery or Arlon or 3M.
posted
Corey, i'd be going with the Calendared..my experience ive had more troubles with hp film than any intermediate... the only trouble ive seen with intermediate is a slight bit of shrinkage after a couple two or three years... nothing that would be noticed on those fence signs....
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Funny you should ask, Steve. I was wondering the same thing...
I was thinking of running a promotion where one weed girl would be delivered FREE OF CHARGE with every 20 rolls of 3M vinyl you purchase...Talk about your value added!
[ March 18, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I am in the process of doing 17 signs for a ball field now. I am using 10 mm cloroplast, washing it with RadipTac and using Oracal 651. I did this same thing last year and donated the with the same material doing the home run markers. I made then in baseballs with the threads, and then put the measurement in the middle. Everyone loved them and this year I get to do all the signs. When all the signs are finished I will had made $7500. $150 a sign I know that is cheap but again I am trying to help the baseball field. I will have $2000 in all the signs total. That is $5500 profit and I didn't leave the shop. I didn't make any promises on how long they would last. I really don't know. I have signs at a racetrack that have been up 3 years and they look new. This is just my opinion. Good luck.
-------------------- Cynthia Pack 246 Diamondview Loop Galax, Va. 24333 Posts: 659 | From: Galax, Virginia USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The Oracal supplier is 3 hours away! HP is too HP!!! I have decided to go with the Avery A5 series calendered @ $2.70 per yard (under 10 yds). Pierre would be proud.....sorry Jon (I like 3M too but, not for this job).
I just hope I don't find a reply from one of you stating DON'T GET THAT CRAP!!!!!!!!!!
A5 is a logical choice for the job (please check your e-mail)...AND PLEASE SUPPORT YOUR LETTERVILLE MERCHANTS!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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In Europe most suppliers are selling calendered films for most things it seems.
I used Avery 8800 series for a time that then changed names to 600 series and now 700series HP, its the same 5-7 year calendered vinyl. Avery a few years back decided to increase the colour range for there 800 series I guess that must be A8?? over there. This is marketed as a Premium film cast, and with a 7-8 year life. Well at the moment I feel like throwing all my Avery vinyl in the trash. I have had failures ( not that many ) but enough to make me feel fed up. Vinyl lifting when its laid in layers....I could post some pics if I could get myself around my ftp program....not the layer closest to the substrate but subsequent layers....no overlaps on edges where you migt expect problems....and as someone said....they are prepared to reimburse for the materials but that is peanuts in the broader picture.
AS so many use calendered here there is not the market to STOCK Avery's QM 900 series 10 year cast, and the price difference here is significant.
I find the Avery 8 year cast to be more and more translucent, affecting colour shades when stacking in layers, like their new colour corn yellow for example.
So I too have been looking at Oracal 651 and 751, we have had Mactac here for years as calendered vinyl.
I have been to 3m for several brainwashing sessions, have too seen failures with their films NOT out performing competition in lab tests etc.
Here in Europe you have to buy 3M from all different suppliers, i.e Scotchweld glues, and double sided tapes comes from one, abrasive papers from another, vinyls from one more, oh yeah...stone chip guard from another too although I would have thought that should have been available from the vinyl gang....there attitude sucks here too....but that may be trying to adapt a US operating system here in Europe, we are influenced by many good things from North America, not all things wash with all of us here...my feelings are as such abit negative towards 3m as a company although many products work well, albeit at a high price, when compared to their competitors.
You are quite right about the European and North American markets being totally different and demanding different product strategies. This of course isn't limited to vinyl - so it probably shouldn't be surprising (but it still is).
Sorry to here of your troubles with Avery and 3M. We've sold the products in Canada for decades with great success and truly limited problems.
Have you tried ULTRAMARK ? Great line of calendered signmaking films, "Tuned to your needs". We're doing marvelously well with it over here.
Take care!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I have tried Ultramark imported a pallet of assorted colours from the UK in their 5700 series about 8 years ago. I think Spandex sell alot in the UK. Do you have PMF vinyls in the US or Canada? They do a range of Cast and calendered, I think its a british company....we have a distributor for it here.
I just wanted to say that I really like Avery or have done....just feel frustrated at seeing things fail, I could understand more if it was bad prep on the substrate but when its layer to layer....and your paying the extra for "cast" films!
I see you mention a new 3M clendered film is that what we know as tartan series here in Europe??
All products have good and bad sides....interesting to hear others experiences, I am sure Corey is nicely confused!
BTW I would also use a 5 year calendered film on your coroplast and not lose any sleep over it. Calendered films have come along way, less shrinkage, thinner and dead easy to weed, if you experience weeding problems just adjust the cutting pressure for different films.
People use Calendered on vehicles all the time here, unless its "blindwindows" or "corrugated" "angular" surfaces, and are weather conditions are as extreme as most....
Eight years ago? Call and request a sample Henry...the product has come a very long way, me thinks. Do you have a Gerber EDGE? (I seem to recall that you do for some reason) 5700 EDGE- prints very nicely.
Lots of people use calendered film on vehicles here, as well. As you stated, for some applications (flat, or moderately curved surfaces) some of the polymerics (such as ULTRAMARK 5700) work just fine. Compound curves, rivets, corrugations...NOT RECOMMENDED.
We have one small competitor here who carries the PMF line, but hasn't been very successful. It doesn't seem like a very good product, frankly.
3M Tartan is (I believe) a polyolefin film that was introduced here as 5725, a couple of years ago. It didn't do very well in Canada.
What on earth is a "blindwindow"?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Been living away from my mother tongue for too long!
A "blindwindow" is a direct translation from Swedish "blindfönster" I meant the "van windows" that aren't if you see what I mean, panelvans with the factory side pressings where a window could go....but isn't....blindwindows in a nutshell!!
posted
Jon, this will require a rather long and detailed post, and I'm tied up pretty badly this week, but I do intend to answer you with historical facts. 3M has a terrible history with their metallic films and those film colors requiring lampblack in the formulation, and I can cite chapter and verse on this subject. I spent 1 year working with the Arlon Lab IN house back in the early 80s, and I think I can raise a few eyebrows. Later, bro.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'm not disputing your experience -- I'm just telling you that mine has been completely different. Besides...the early eighties qualifies as ancient history.
Keep on smiling, Pierre. Glad to read that you are so busy...probably keeps you out of trouble with the women folk!
Take care.
[ March 19, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Guys I find this post to be very educational. I have heard almost nothing but bad about calendared material. I have become fond of Avery vinyl and about 6 mos. ago decided to use the A5 on temporary signs. I have been happy with it. Now I learn from you that it may last longer that I thought. I have seen so many times on the board that the difference is only pennies. Well, I cen get A5 in 24"x50 yds. @ $1.64 per yd. delivered to my door. The A8 in the same size is $4.64 per yd. That is not pennies is it? Very interesting.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Cory it may be your best interest to go back to your client and talk to them about Sintra.Had the pleasure of painting a 4x8 the other day.I even tried a new paint and had teriffic results. I didn't try vinyl except to mask so I'm not sure how it would hold up.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Both cast film and calendered film have their place in the market and are well suited to specific applications.
HOWEVER, before you decide to make a wholesale change to calendered vinyl, I hope you will consider what I am about to try to relate...at risk of coming across as longwinded, incoherent, and as a walking, talking commercial (please bear with me to the end of this post)...
We like to encourage signmakers to offer their customers choices, based upon three things:
consultation...what is the purpose and value of the proposed sign to your customer?
the suitability of a given product for the intended application
on your customer's perception of value / brand recognition
For example: A customer who wants a sign for their storefront and wants to project "value added" probably wants cast translucent film on their signbox (without knowing it, of course). When they call you for a quotation, we suggest asking them about their business, their goals and what the purpose of their sign is. When you have all of the facts, you are ready to start discussing the options and prices. From a "vinyl selection" perspective, start by offering the sign made with calendered translucent and explaining the inherent limitations of using the film in question. The price you give for this should be competitive with just about anybody...which will also raise doubts about the quality offered by lowball competitors when you introduce the premium product/price alternative and explain the differences.
Make sense, so far?
Brand recognition / brand association is a powerful sales and marketing tool that is often overlooked.
Here's an interesting example... I'm going to give you a number and a letter and I want you to tell me the first thought that enters your mind...3M. 50%+ of the people reading this post would probably tell me "too expensive". Try this word association game on your customers...here's what you will get:
"Scotch Tape"
"Innovation"
"Quality"
"Performance"
"The best"
By contrast, other commonplace brands in the sign industry either mean NOTHING to the average consumer or mean SOMETHING DIFFERENT...
AVERY - Office products
ARLON / CALON - Huh?
MACTAC - The shelves at my cottage are lined with the stuff
ORACAL - Wha?
What do you think your customer(s) will think about you and your products when you start with a consultative approach, offer them at least a couple of suitable price-point solutions, then offer them the option of 3M Cast (or soon, calendered) Film? If they take the low cost option, you haven't lost anything. If they take the premium option, what have you gained?
A premium price for your work
Increased profit
A satisfied customer that feels that they got the best value
An instant association between 3M "quality" and "innovation" and your products and services.
Opportunities for repeat business and referrals
This is why people (like me) use terms like "pennies" so loosely when describing the price differential...it is a matter of perspective. Cost versus benefit.
[ March 19, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Pierre is speaking volumes when it comes to the warranty being worthless. A few years back I had to redo a race car because of a bad roll of vinyl. It was a five color job. Due to the way everything was layered, I wasn't able to save anything. It took over five hours to get that **** off the car then ANOTHER ten to recut, reweed and reapply. The wonderful warranty...another roll of vinyl:( And for only the bad color at that!!!!!!
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
ok...iam in the midst of "baseball sign" season here....in the last 2 weeks ive done over 50 32"x 48", i get 3 signs from a 4x8 sheet of corplast. puting hp vinyl on these is like puting a $3000 paint job on a YUGO!!!!! these baseball signs go up during the season(3-6 months, then are taken down and stored inside till next year)at $50 a sign.....you want a warrenty? even they dont expect this. i use calendared ONLY for this, and the least expensive the better. basic colors red, white, black, green, blue, teal. corplaste is either white, red, blue, green, yellow. ive been using intermediate vinyl since 93 for most jobs, failure rate-ZERO! i loved SPAR-CAL, now i use AVERY A-5, BANNERCAL, GMI, as for ORA-CRAP....thats my opinion, and if you use oracal, buy more blades...it eats em. the stuff is like cutting thin plexi...its so plastic and hard and not plyable. i hate the feel of it when i ball up the weeded material...and it STINKS!!!!! and its a 1/2 shorter then my other rolls of 20" material..whats wit dat?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yep Joe is right. Oracal is shorter, it does stink, and is way too brittle. I do use it for really inexpensive jobs sometimes. I like CalPlus better. For coroplast signs, why would you use anything other than the inexpensive vinyl?
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Jon, no way am I considering "scraping the premium." I agree totally with you about quality. I like your conception of consultation, suitability, and perception. Good Stuff! I'm just learning that calendared is not as temporary as I previously believed it was. Keep in mind that I am still a newbie. I will be in biz 2 yrs. in August, officially October. I was lucky enough to be milk fed right here in Letterville. Now I am trying to digest the "meat" of the sign world. Thanks a lot for your input I appreciate it. George, I have a question for you about race cars. In my area I don't have any high end cars to do. They get wrecked very often. Would you use A5? Or as Jon suggested, perhaps I could give them a choice through consultation. I'm hoping to get more race work in the near future.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
You are all AWESOME!! Thanks for all your replies. I hope this has been as educational for you as it was for me.
Henry, I use PMF here in Canada & although I am concerned because it doesn't seem to be on the same plateau as 3M, I haven't had problems with it.
Old Paint, their ballpark signs stay up year round like ice rink signs but, I'm still gonna use the A5, oh yeh, & you crack me up "wit dat Ora-crap"..ha ha ha
Randy, Sintra is fine (I use more of it for cutting tables than signs) I find it'll warp in the sun unless really backed well with plywood or such.
And as far as calendered on a vehicle...NEVER! WOW...HP vinyl finally found it's niche!
I think the ONLY person who suggested that he would use 3M/Cast film on this job was CURTIS( NOT ME)...but ya know what, CURTIS isn't entiirely crazy...
If his "weed girl" can weed 3M that much faster than she can calendered film (and I believe him) he might actually make more gross profit!. Labour/overhead typically represents a much larger percentage of your average sign job than materials do.
Where this whole question of "warranty is bunk" comes in (in this case) is irrelevant.
In the greater scheme of things, I have seen my company (just a humble distributor, offering no semblence of a warranty ourselves) and 3M go out of their way to satisfy customers in relation to warranty claims...above and beyond the call of duty.
I'm not disputing that you, Pierre, or you, George, have experienced unsatisfactory support. All I'm saying: You guys are not in the majority, in my experience.
Cathy: Thanks. In reading your posts in the past several months I never would have guessed that you've only been in the business for a couple of years!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I've been pondering this for a while.
Doesn't alot (most?) of vinyl life expectancy have to do with climate? I mean, wouldn't vinyl last longer in a more temperate climate (say, northern california) which has fewer major temperature fluctuations/extremes than say in Phoenix, AZ or Alaska?
This is more of a question than a suggestion, but this is how it would seem to me.
Please enlighten me. -shane
-------------------- Halo Graphics Clearlake Oaks, CA http://www.halographics.com ntshane1@halographics.com Posts: 308 | From: Clearlake Oaks, CA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I only stock cast film. I haven't bought any intermediate or calendered film since '90. In the Northwest even corrugated plastic signs last a while due to the low UV we get. I've had them up for 7 plus years so I don't want them to fail. I guess it depends on your niche.
For me it isn't worth keeping track of two or three different films in each color, but then again I usually let the shoppers go elsewhere.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Kathy, when it comes to race cars they break down into two groups, oval track and drag cars. A drag car might stay in the owners possession for a number of years, cast would be the choice here. Oval track cars usually get pretty beat up and get reskinned and repainted at least yearly. Calandered is the way to go here. I've found on our own car that the calandered holds up better to the "wheel rubbin" much better, the cast balls up easily. Also, the fancy foils that are so popular on the dirt cars aren't even intended for outdoor use and break down pretty quickly, they are use to that fact and aren't real picky about how stuff holds up. If they make it three months into a season without getting all torn up they usually consider themselves lucky:)
Jon, I must be missing something here, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic but just what is yorr companies policy on handling warranty claims? Would you have in my case replaced ALL the vinyl at no cost AND compensated me for the time it took to remove, recut, reweed, repremask and reapply, plus the gas it took to drive back to the customers shop? If so, you may have a new customer:). If not, then I'll still agree with Pieree that the warrany doesn't mean a thing. Kinda like a parachute manufacturer offering a replacement emergency chute for any that don't open.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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That is not pennies is it? Very interesting.
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