posted
Here's a "what would you do" for ya. I'm curious how others would handle this situation.
A client(from out of town) called wanting information on what types of "highway" signs I could do. He was calling on behalf of a museum, and explained that they wanted something that would last a long time. I explained some of his options and he said he would get back to me on size, etc.
He called this morning wanting prices on a 6'X12' sign, priced in aluminum and crezone. He then said he would fax me the "artwork" so I could quote on it. When I questioned him about the layout, turns out it is from a different sign shop. They are happy with the layout, and just want to know what I would charge.
What would you do?
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sue, I would tell him he called the wrong person. I would not want the reputation of being the guy who uses someone elses artwork. If you don't have to spend time designing something you can always undercut a price. I have had this done to me a few times and would love to get ahold of the jackass who stole my work. Then again, I'm the jackass who gave someone a print without a deposit. Live and learn.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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THE OTHER SIGN SHOP'S DESIGN IS AUTOMATICALLY COPYWRITED BY THEM, SO I WOULDN'T USE IT WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION, WHICH IF "YES", WOULD, I'M SUR' REQUIRE A FEE OF SOME KIND. IT'S BEST TO CHANGE THE ORIGINAL DESIGN ENOUGH TO AVOID THE LEGAL PROBLEM THAT COULD ARISE! I WOULD ALSO NEVER, NEVER QUOTE A FAX OR PHONE CALL JOB. GET THEM IN YOUR SHOP OR GO TO THEIR BUSINESS AND TALK FACE-TO-FACE. YOU'LL BE AMAZED AT THE PROBLEMS YOU'LL AVOID BY DOING THIS.
posted
Hey, I just had an idea !!!! Of which I will use in the future for myself. If you are 100% SURE where the design came from, tack on an additional $125.00 (or so) to the final cost and send THAT money to the person that designed it. THEN, when you deliver the sign, tell your "unscrupulous" customer what you did and why. Sounds good to me !!
[ March 18, 2002, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: John Smith ]
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 817 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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Thanks for the replies guys. I wanted to see what some of you would do before I told you what I did.
After finding out the design came from another shop, I explained that if they went with my quote, and wanted the sign exactly like the layout they faxed me, they would have to contact the first shop and probably pay a design fee. He said he didn't realize that, and that would not be a problem.
The layout is okay, but nothing spectacular. The trouble is, I do not want to waste time doing a new design for nothing.
I've dealt with some real jerks before, but this guy didn't strike me that way. I think he is in charge on behalf of a committee, and needs to supply a few quotes. He seems very genuine in wanting to know about the materials to use, and wanted the sign to be simple and legible. I really don't think he thought he was doing anything wrong.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just redesign it....I had to this on a job not long ago, and just completely redesigned the thing--improving it, as well as showcasing my work instead of someone else's.
We have just implemented a policy where we will not provide pricing on any project off a competitors artwork/design unless the client can show proof of design purchase. We then call the original designer and inform them of our stance and ask for permission to bid unless it is a poor design. It is very important for those of you who do not like this practise to contact the original designer because then you are showing good faith that will in turn continue to catalize an industry respect for this very big problem. Would it not be great if everyone used this standard.
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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The man has a design and price from another shop, now he wants more bids? Just as a price check, or looking for a lower price?
That brings to mind 2 questions: 1. How can you underbid and still pay a royalty to the designer? 2. Why would you spend the time and effort to bid on a job that you can't get?
My policy is that I NEVER bid on another shop's design, in fact, I will immediatly call them, and inform them that their design is being sent out for bids!
To avoid having your design shopped around, try "watermarking" it, keeps the unscrupulous from cutting, or blocking out your shop name. And on the other hand, when you get a design that has a blank corner or a shortened page, BEWARE! It is someone else's design!
Maybe I've lost jobs because of my attitude, but I sleep better nights!
(Sheeesh! this BB needs 'spellcheck')
[ March 18, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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THE OWNER IS WANTING OTHER ESTIMATES. SO WHATS IS THE PROBLEM. DO SOME REDESIGN & GIVE HIM A QUOTE HE'S CALLING YOU FOR THE ESTIMATE ,THEN GO FOR IT.BUT DON'T USE THE OTHER PERSON DESIGN STEVE HOPKINS
-------------------- Steve Hopkins Piedmont Sign Shop Danville, Va. 24541 434-548-4368 Posts: 39 | From: Danville, Va. USA | Registered: May 2001
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At the first mention of other shops being involved in a bid before it comes to me I get very curious. Why didn't the other shop get the job? Price? Design? Personalities? Reputation? and let them know it isn't ethical for me to bid someone elses art unless they have been compensated. The usual reaction is like you mentioned - the general public is kind of surprised to hear there is integrity in the trade. It's a great opener for my next statement to them - that I don't design on speculation either. Once they realize this stuff isn't free they either leave or we get down to what their budget is and what my design fee is.
Actually I've learned some interesting tales about my competitors when this happens. I don't gossip, but I sure keep the info in the back of my mind for reference.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think in this situation, this guy was supposed to get a couple of different quotes from this committee. When he called the first shop, they sent a simple layout with their quote. I normally do not send a sketch with my quotes for this very reason.
In this case, I will provide a quote for an alum sign, white background, black letters with a shadow & a border.(this is what the customer wants) I will stress that if they choose my quote, we will then agree on the final layout before I proceed (designed by me). I may throw in a more detailed version to upsale a nicer sign.
The problem here was, if I said to this guy on the phone, "I don't do quotes on another shops design" he would have wanted me to include my own design. When he learned there would be a charge for this, he wouldn't want to pay the extra fee, as he was perfectly happy with the first layout.
Thanks for all your comments and advice. I'll keep you posted how this turns out.
Sue
Thanks for the
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I still appreciate the approach Mike Jackson used to mention here. He'd do the design for a fee, and give them the art they paid for. He'd have the art and have the production thought out so he could bid the job in a competitive manner. If the job went elsewhere, he's been compensated for what he did.
The part I don't like about it is that another shop would gain the recognition for creating this creative element and not the designer.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Up front. Like Rick said, if the customer had paid for the artwork up front and could prove it, there would be no question asked.
If the guy had to collect several bids for comparison purposes, then he went about it wrong. The matter of asking one person to design a sign and others to bid on produceing that sign is not looking at the true picture. Maybe slightly unethical at best, and copyright infringment if used without permission. I don't think I'd want to start a customer-vendor relationship with someone like this. If you make your stance known and tell him I was going to have to submit a redesign, and he bucks, I'd ask leave.
posted
Hey if they had called me - I would not use the other shop's work at all - I would probly turn out a quick sketch & price - let the best shop win - Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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I'm glad to see ethics alive and well here. There are two of my competitors here that simply don't care who designed what. One I did have sandblast and paint a sign for me has the sign proudly displayed on their web site with no disclaimer as to who actually concieved, designed, and installed the sign, in another instance they simply used my design, that I had foolishly given a proof to, whom I thought was a trustworthy person and it also is on their web site as their design work. Another had us design a graphic package for a car trailer before he had a "SIGN SHOP"...he bought his own system and proceded to use our design on his trailer. I've seen other shop's designs come in in the clients hands and can say I've never copied another companies' work to undercut them or because I didn't have enough talent to create my own design. I have called other shops and informed them when I see this happen. As for as my two competitors they'll never see another one of my designs until it's paid for then it's fair game... If I got off the point I'm sorry, I should just resolve in the fact that "plagerism is the sincerest form of flattery" and when client come in and see pictures on my wall of these "stolen" projects that they say on somebody else's web site I enlighten them. I would quote the project like there is no other design and let the chips fall where they may.
Dave
-------------------- Dave Ginley Ace of Signs Selinsgrove, Pa. www.aceofsigns.com Posts: 172 | From: Selinsgrove, Pa., USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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if I know the the customer is being cheep and shopping everyone in town I hate to waste my time on a bid that I prob. will not get, and i tell the the customer just that...."i might not be the cheapest in town....then again im not here for that.....you allways get what you pay for....and that im here to do good work and make a fair living at a fair price. then knowing my work well enuff I will shoot them a high-low ballpark price with not doing any proofs (time is money) and if they like what they hear they will come back to me and I will sharpen up my pencil and do them a complet bid with my artwork, that way i dont waste a bunch of time on a no were job. and as far as useing someones elses artwork I will only do it if the customer allready ownes it.from time to time its nice to know what the compatition is chargeing for the same type of work so you can keep your prices fair but not at the cost of another person and there time.....remember to treat others the same way you want to be treated
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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if I know the the customer is being cheep and shopping everyone in town I hate to waste my time on a bid that I prob. will not get, and i tell the the customer just that...."i might not be the cheapest in town....then again im not here for that.....you allways get what you pay for....and that im here to do good work and make a fair living at a fair price. then knowing my work well enuff I will shoot them a high-low ballpark price with not doing any proofs (time is money) and if they like what they hear they will come back to me and I will sharpen up my pencil and do them a complet bid with my artwork, that way i dont waste a bunch of time on a no were job. and as far as useing someones elses artwork I will only do it if the customer allready ownes it.from time to time its nice to know what the compatition is chargeing for the same type of work so you can keep your prices fair but not at the cost of another person and there time.....remember to treat others the same way you want to be treated
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
this has happined to me twice lately. the first time it was a guy who sold pagers and cell phones. Sent a drawing from another shop. I told him I could not work from their drawing. He said he would resend it. I told him I did not want to work for him. My policy is to call the shop that did the design and let them know that theit copyright was being violated.
The second time was last week. A friend of mine that brokers everything lays a drawing on my desk. Asks for quote. I told him I could not quote it. He picked it up to take it somewhere else for a quote. I told him if he did not feed it into my "Hillary" shreader I could never turn my back on him again. He shreaded it. I called the other shop and told them about it.
We need to do these things. To many people will quote it based on another shops design. It is the main reason I think the sign business is lousy. Don't get me wrong I love My business but some of the folks in this business are pretty lame.
Posts: 121 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2001
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This reminds me of what happened at a Chamber Small Business Expo a few years ago. A competitor of mine and I each had a booth at the show. During the course of the day, some of my clients stopped by and asked me if we did their sign. I was kinda perplexed that they would ask a question because I'm the one they dealt with when they ordered it from me.
Long story short.....they saw pictures of their signs that I did in my competitors' photo album. One of my clients was told by this competitor's wife that they did the sign.
Then the fun really began. My wife stopped by after work to visit me. I asked her to go to the other booth and check out the photo album. Not only did my competitor have several pictures of my work, they had a picture of a sign I did for my father-in-law. My wife asked them, "Who did that sign?", pointing to her father's sign. "We did," was the response.
My wife came back and told me about it.
As the show was getting ready to close up for the night, I went to my competitor's booth. He and his wife were bent over placing stuff under the table and didn't see me standing there thumbing through their album.
I asked, "Did you do all of these signs?"
Without looking up, my competitor pipped an enthusiastic "Yep!"
I cleared my throat.
I wish I had a camera with me. You should have seen how red their faces turned when they realized who I was.
Then the wife spoke up, "Well, actually, these signs are ones we can do."
I looked at her square in the face and calmly instructed to either remove the photos immediately or I would be turning the matter over to my attorney.
The next day at the show, I sent a friend over to inspect the album for me. The album was gone.
Word of what happened got out. The clients who saw their signs in the album let others know what this clown and his wife did.
Ya just gotta love it.
[ March 21, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
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