posted
The commentary on Capt. Ken's post about SignGold vs. trad gilding got me thinking about another question...
Do you find that by offering SignGold as an option, especially on trucks, that you now sell more gold jobs overall - both SG and trad?
Another point about SG, in terms of time savings; by using SG on a job, a sign painter can use the time saved over trad gilding to embellish the job - outlines, accents, those awesome blended split shades that Karen does (and taught me to do - thanks again, KS!) I'm not knocking trad gilding here in any way - as others have mentioned, the look is very different, and the options in burnishing and other treatments are infinite - but again, on certain jobs (esp. trucks) I'd rather spend less time gilding and more doing embellishments, and still know the job won't be destroyed by a gorilla with a pressure-washer.
There's more to this topic than time/money comparisons.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I would agree that for those purposes, that SG is a prefered method for reasons you describe. I would probably only use a traditional gild for accenting elaborate paintjobs, firetrucks and the like. I myself, will stay away from the turned look, because of its overuse in carnival land. It is used throughout the dimestore market and even on xmas wrap. Although this effect is used on a lot of other vinyls, giving an embellishing flare to racecars and the like, I don't think I would use it otherwise. Though at one time a technicians art, it now looks rather overused and trivial to me now. Just my opinion. bronzeo
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Cam- I don't want to start an argument here but I've seen them same gorillas blow vinyl off the truck with the pressure washer. I think we should be able to use either. If the customer is to stupid to wash his truck properly then that is his fault. I personally don't want a customer who is not going to follow care instructions that I give him. Those are the types that will have you doing touch up jobs for the life of the truck.
[ March 15, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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The "old style" lettering that has always been the marvel to the general public. Is attribited the the EXTRAS(shade,outline,etc) that the sign painter would take the Time to add to his work,that would make the personal style that we now call "eye candy" I agree with Cam on the idea of using SG with the added paint or translecent inks for the over all effects of QUALITY work done! Jack makes a good point of OVER use of just (1)one of the ways Leaf can be used(turned) Seems to me...cut out,slapped on facsimile of the original is all fine and good for $$$ with minimum about of work. I have just been able to make MORE $$$ with the same product adding at little flair to it via the brush! There must be a lesson here for the ones whom feel it is not worth thier time to learn how to paint with a brush. After all,if you know more you can make more. hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree totally with Cam, I'd rather spend the time with "eyecandy", that's what puts individuality into your SG work. Some "eyecandy" is actually more difficult w/ leaf especially if you like to do panels & ribbons like me, fresh 1 shot just LOVES to put gold everywhere you don't want it. I just hate tip toeing around it! We can do both if we want to - just fit the job to the customer - I'm very happy to do traditional leaf if.....they'll pay, they'll wait, and they'll be fussy taking care & maintaining it. If not I want them to have SG, cuz in the long run they will be happier! Karen
posted
Just for the na-sayers on the durability of real gold. I was at a friends sign shop tonight. He had a smalts and gold leaf sign from a Dr. office. The sign was between 50 and 60 years old he figures. The smalts was falling off but the gold was holding on tight and shinning like the day it was put on. A real cool sign done by a true master of days gone by.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Rob, I entirely agree with you regarding gold leaf on a sign. The question of durability was brought up by Karen only in regard to truck lettering, where abrasion, power-washing, and other forms of abuse are common. Comparing the duability of leaf on a signboard and a truck door is a bit like apples to oranges.
What might be the proper question is not the durability of gold per se, but of the clear coats used to cover gold on truck lettering. Yesterday Bob Rochon mentioned the incidence of failures with SignGold. The tedlar covering on SG is just about bulletproof - except on edges where it has been cut. Like any other product, care must be taken to properly ensure that the material holds up as expected.
As for the deep satisfaction in laying gold leaf by hand, well... I've done a helluva lot of leaf work over the last fifteen years, and frankly, the bloom is off that particular rose. Don't get me wrong, I love the look of well-laid leaf, and I experiment with ways of obtaining better shine and burnish, as some of you have seen at meets where I've demonstrated gilding on Gemini letters. But the simple fact is that laying leaf is work, and often tedious work at that. I'd rather do brush lettering or "eye candy" on the job. And as Karen also mentioned, gilding on a freshly-painted signboard or a color panel on a truck door can be frustrating when gold sticks everywhere. How many of you keep a few eggs in your shop fridge, just to have on hand to make a quick batch of egg size that can save you from hours of tedious clean-up later? I guess all I'm saying is that trad gilding and SG both have their place, and I'm not choosing one over another out of a misty-eyed romance with gold leaf. Don't take that wrong, please! I don't mean to criticize anyone's passion for doing hand work over something that comes off a plotter. But as I said in the original post, my contention is that the introduction of SG has resurrected truck-door gilding, and rather than eliminating trad gilding, has actually enhanced it as an alternative to the somewhat mechanistic look of SG.
Is it just me, but am I WAY to deep into this subject for 8am on a Saturday?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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the real challenge is to get the plotter to cut the letter so as the burl lands at the center of the letter and doesnt get cut in half at the bottom and top
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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You make excellent points regarding the use of SignGold on vehicles and such. I can also see Rob's point of view.
SignGold is faster than using traditional gilding techniques. When time is a contributing factor, SignGold wins out. I really like the look of a well executed gild in all it's 23k glory. It has a richness that SignGold is lacking.
My biggest beef about SignGold is that the burnishing is just way too mechanical looking. That is where a traditional gild will surpass SignGold in beauty. Hand turning a gild has a certain elegance and "hands on" look that that SignGold will never achieve.
This is an interesting topic and I am sure it will be the fodder of many a discussion at Letterhead meets.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:My biggest beef about SignGold is that the burnishing is just way too mechanical looking. That is where a traditional gild will surpass SignGold in beauty. Hand turning a gild has a certain elegance and "hands on" look that that SignGold will never achieve.
Amen to that! On big letters it is way to busy, and some of the lettering I see advertised in the trade mags aren't even readable, but that is a topic for another thread.
[ March 16, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Egg white wash to prevent the gold from adhering where it contacts fresh paint? Way to messy for me! Why not rub it with a slice of raw potato! The starch in the potato will work just as well!
Werks fer me!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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as for longevity of real gold...the town i lived in penna has a 1936 ford pumper fire truck....with the original gold leaf on it!!!!!!!! and ive seen sign gold(or something that looked like it) on a new fire truck go to crap in less then 4 years..
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Joe, I'm sure that's true. But a 1936 fire truck is now a museum piece, not a working vehicle. I'm just trying to avoid the apples to oranges comparisons. I completely agree with Ken and Bob about the "too perfect" spinning on SG.
Oh, and about the egg thing... I've used the raw potato method, and find it's harder to remove the starch residue from the finish. Egg white sizing dissolves easily and washes right off. Yeah, its messy. It's a sign shop, fa chrissakes, what isn't messy?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Been real busy here Cam with tha racetracks etc., but I had to add my 2 cents worth,....I use automotive clears over my gold so that the hand guilded stuff holds up as well as the Paint on the vehicle.I did a "brush truck" for tha local fire dept(humvee jeep) & the only clear giving me any problems is where the paint has also been scratched off down to the primer. They take this jeep out into the woods under the worst of conditions with tree limbs & shrubery that would scratch normal vehicle paint & like I stated the gold(hand guilded) is holding up as good or better than the imron on the jeep and it was guilded in '93. I think alot of folks depend on the old type top coats for gold on vehicle graphics, thus with early failures in store. In turn this gives the traditional ways a bad name,due to formula changes to suit the E.P.A. at the paint factories. Granted the actual procedure of guilding has to be changed a bit to accomadate the automotive clear but as with anything times change & so should the techniques,....
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Looks like this one is gonna turn into... The Clearcoat challenge. Lately I been getting signgold and it comes with a bunch of slips inside the box, one says Signgold silver can no longer be used outdoors and another says SG must be edge sealed, so now we get bak to cost vs. labor again If we have to clearcoat the signgold as well how much time are we saving. So here is where I am gonna heat it up... 2 truck doors (we will use Glen's fire truck) 3" letters you would need 2 books of gold $40 or 2 yards of SG $80, cut and weed SG would take the same time as Cut and weed intermediate vinyl to use as a mask, apply the mask, roll on quick size (this gives you 3 hours to work on something else) gild, burnish and clear should take less than 1 hour it doesnt seem like it would take much more time to get that great looking hand turned gold job
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Does somebody want to volunteer to do a time n materials test? I may do it if I have time later this week. The idea is to do two identical panels - maybe factory-finished aluminum, or panels with automotive finishes - one with SG,including edge-sealing; one with trad gilding on a mask, with a two-part automotive clearcoat. Keep accurate time and material records on everything used on the job, and compare them later. One thing this has to include is drying time for gold size; even though we can do something else for a couple of hours, if we are talking truck lettering, that's three more hours that the customer's truck is in your shop, whether you are doing anything or not. Again, I'm not kicking trad gilding or pushing SG, just mentioning there is an additional time factor involved.
Who's up for it?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Now that sounds like a challenge! I will take it! later in the week I will do my traditional gild panel using a vinyl mask.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
For those of us following along with the scorecard at home, I have a question about “edge sealing” SG.
In the other post, the examples posted by Jim and Glenn include outlines (Glenn with shade as well). If the SG is actually encapsulated within the Black vinyl, this can be considered “sealed” correct? I have limited experience with SG but have always trapped SG with my outline/shade vinyl (Except twice, testing in each occasion). I was at another shop today that placed his SG directly on top of a solid outline piece, not sealing at all. He stated that he has never sealed or trapped his SG jobs. I found this to be odd, but am now wondering; how many people place SG on top of their outlines then “edge seal” (or don’t seal) verse those that encapsulate within the outline?
Trapping to seal verse non-trapping and sealing would have some time implications in this scenario, IMHO.
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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