posted
I have a theroy... I just finished a sign, 43" x 16'. I gilded the entire thing by hand and heres what I came up with:
13" letters and 18" logo I used 4 books of gold leaf = $80 it took 4 hours to gild at $50 = $200
so do it in signgold...
5' of signgold matte gold= $200 2' of large engine turn gold= $80
so whats the differnce???
The signgold job is 200 for supplies 80 bucks labor, The gold leaf job is 80 materials and 200 labor
so which one is best?
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
I guess Sign Gold would work better for me if I did the job. Less time spent in labor would mean I could make more money the rest of the day, since there would be time left over to start and finish another project.
posted
Less labor is involved. That means I can work on other jobs and get more produced in a day. Also, SignGold doesn't require my personal attention. I can let one of my staff do it instead of me.
*************
Better yet....I get the job done faster which gives me time to go fishing.
[ March 11, 2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
You are showing material cost for Sign Gold of $280, but for the sake of argument ,going by the numbers $200 material $80 labor for sign gold vs. $80 material $200 labor for real gold looks like an absolute toss up to me. Sure the sign gold method will free up more time (2.4 hrs ) but you will eat up that time making up the material difference. 2.4 x $50= $120
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Cost may wind up the same...BUT....real gold leaf job will look a lot better! 1. no hard edge 2. you can use any size of "jewelling" 3. you can choose any finish such as a plated look, florentine, brushed, etc.
Guess I'm too set in the old ways!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with Si! SignGold is too perfect. Put some hands on it and it will look a LOT better...besides...I LOVE doing it by hand!...and those that still guild the old way will understand.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1002 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
I just wondered, I know you've had your share of set backs and that your shop stays boom baddah bing most of the time. I couldn't recall any pics about a fishing trip in all the years I've been here...LOL!
I started thinkin, about Glenn's post. Fishin made me wonder, if I was holdin a rod and had a tackle box, would I want gold leaf on them or stickie stuff melting all over my hands as it peeled up in the sun?
I'm just an "old ways" kinda gal though, so maybe I'm biased? hehehe!
I'm wondering what all you can lay gold leaf on? What are some of the extremes you gold leaf gurus have gone to? Any perty pics to make us drool?
posted
Actually, I was suppose to work on rebuilding the front porch. But, it was too pretty of a day.
There is a river just a few miles from my house. The fishing has never been all that good, but for me, getting a line wet instead of a brush is the best way to relax. Even if its just for a couple hours every few months.
When I was 12, I was the only kid in the area with his own boat. It wasn't much. Just a 10ft. aluminum flat bottom with a trolling motor. A friend of mine and I would lug this thing a mile through a woody path and down some railroad tracks to reach the lake. We would spend our Saturdays floating on the lake feeding the mosquitos, getting sunburned and catching fish too small to eat. But, they were some of the best times of my life. I miss those days.
***********
I'm turning 40 this year and I guess I'm starting to go through my own "mid-life crisis" of sorts. There are things that are becoming more important to me all over again. I've reached a point where I don't care if a job is done in SignGold or gold leaf. If its a good design, made a good profit, and was completed quickly so I have time to do other things, then I'm happy.
[ March 12, 2002, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
What? No one going to comment on Arklie's post? He has a point; cutting and applying Sign Gold does have a labor cost involved. I personally find SignGold to be great for smaller jobs with tight lettering; on larger areas or for lettering more than about 3" tall I prefer to lay leaf by hand. Like any other product, it has its uses and it's limitations.
Fishing, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother subject.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
In our shop, we would use the real gold, besides the fact that you did not include cutting, weeding, and application time for the Sign gold, which would have made it even easier decision. I can absolutely command a higher price for the real gold, not to mention the customer would see the value & the quality.
Sign gold has it's purpose, on large jobs I also think it is too machined looking. Thanks Ken for the post it is good to see how close it really is some times.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hand carve almost everything I leaf, so signgold isn't even a logical choice. SG is fine for quick flat jobs, though I prefer real leaf for this also. Something less appealing to look at gold through plastic. Also carving a leafing are two of the more fun and interesting things about signs for me, so when given the choice I wouldn't want to rush through it to get to some other crappy work. Real stuff, hands down and gilding....Bronzeo
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Arklie is right I didn't figure in application tape or the hour= to cut, weed and apply. Alot of material costs should be considered, but I just wanted to see who thought the same way as me.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anytime I look at the comparison I know there is labor expenses. I'd rather employ someone than pay the supplier who pays a distributor who pays a manufacturer and truck drivers.The higher percentage that stays with me and feeds our local economy is how I base my decision if they look the same either way and are both as durable.
I can't see where SignGold ever looks as good as leaf, but I do see it as more durable in many situations.
Do you ever get into that easy frame of mind and that connected to earth and satisfied feeling working with 23k leaf? Do you ever get that with SignGold?
I'd leaf it.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have'nt done much gold leaf work, so I'm far from an expert but I have seen many gold leaf jobs in my area fall apart from the clear coat failing. I would chalk most of this up to the customer not taking care of his lettering. That would make me want to go with the sign gold, but I agree that hand gilding looks much nicer. I am talking about vehicle lettering not signs as that is what 80% of my work is.
-------------------- David Thompson Pro-Line Graphics Martinsville, NJ
I'm not this dumb, it's just the paint fumes talkin' Posts: 398 | From: Martinsville, NJ | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is interesting... I stopped in at Brian's shop this morning asked him... he couldn't say signgold fast enough. after we discussed it, he said " yeah your right, but I still would have chose signgold" I went to the shop thinking yeah he has the same theroy as Dave and Glenn,GET IT DONE FAST AND GET IT OUT THE DOOR I got to the shop and played with my quickbooks for a while and was astonished by the percent of profit goes to supplies. So now I lean over to my theroy that when its all done the 200 bucks is mine, not the suppliers.
****I am not putting down The product here******
I agree with Cam a small job under 3" is much more profitable in Signgold and there is no question which is faster
So here is the real question:
When does it become more profitable to use real gold? 3"letters? 6" letters? how about letters like mine 13"tall? thats about the largest you can do on 15" signgold.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I think the Captain's premise is flawed.
First, I wanna know where the heck is he getting books of gold for $20 each. The best I can get for 23k leaf is $32 per book.
************
As to the "Get it done fast" theory, I think the point is missed. One of the rules of business management is "you make your money by how fast you can turn it." A few weeks back, we lettered a truck for a local volunteer fire dept. They dropped it off at 8am and had it ready to go by 10am. The work was done by $10 per hour employee. I was allowed to work on a more profitable job. I used 2 yards of SignGold and charged $550 to do the two doors similar to this...(3" letters).
They were happy as clams. The previous signshop had kept their other truck for a day and a half.
Who do you think made more money?
[ March 12, 2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Glenn, First of all, gold is available in the low twentyies a book when you purchase it by the pack from gold dealers rather than sign suppliers. Secondly, wouldn't you be more proud to see the firetruck in the parade that you did with a brush and leaf? Point is, I often recognize the compromise involved in focusing on the money rather than the quality of my time spent while doing the job. Sometimes I go for the bucks, but for the sake of preserving my mind and soul, occassionally the other direction is what keeps me grounded. As Mike Stevens used to say to me.... "Take the path of Heart."
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
If you are buying your gold by the pack then $20 a book is about right, if you buy in bigger bulk I have been able to get my cost down to around $12.00 a book. $32 a book seams rather high for wholesale buying. So his premise is not flawed.
It's all in how you want to look at it. I have my employee that makes about the same, lay leaf just fine. I took the time to teach him, which didn't take long at all really.
See diversity is awesome, we all have different ways of looking at it. Glenn Signgold would work fine for you but for me there are some jobs where it won't cut it. I just did 2 doors on a chevy avalanche in real gold, painted drop shadow and a few tag lines on the tailgate. we get 850.00 for those. It may take me longer than applying sign gold, but a LOT more of that 850.00 is going in my pocket than my suppliers.
My customer doesn't mind waiting, he actually picked the real gold over sign gold. That job would be the more profitable job for me to work on.
It's all about perception!
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I'm probably getting too businessminded in my old age. I used to feel the same way, but the last few years have really changed my perspective on a lot of things. Maybe I need to stand back and take a deep breath.
Anyhow, who are you buying your gold from. I even contacted a gold distributor listed in SignCraft (I can't remember the name at the moment) and they wanted $30+.
I really don't find comparing real gild and plastic covered stick gild very easy. I was not very pleased with the 5 yards that I ordered, and 4 yards of it is waiting for vehicle sometime in the future (about the only place that I would use it).
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is a great topic and there is a lot of discussion but what about the different applications you choose to use one or the other. I like to use stick'em gold for this application (picture attatched)only because this customer trades vehicles every 3-5 years. But when I'm doing a motorcycle tank or street rod or pinstriping I use gilded. To each his own.....just gald I am able to supply both products. .....hope you like the example....
HETZ
[ March 13, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Jim & Chris hetzler ]
-------------------- Jim & Chris Hetzler JC Hetz Studio 513 W 3rd St. Muscatine, IA 52761 563-263-2803 jhetzler@machlink.com www.jchetzstudio.com
"We are the one that makes you look good!" Posts: 137 | From: Muscatine,Iowa,USA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks Jack! I've got a carved'n'leafed job coming up. That bit of information is going to save me about $200 for this job.
$50 a year to support this site is just way too cheap!
**********
Jim,
Nice job! I like it!!
**********
I want to continue this conversation later tonight as I've got to get back to work right now. I've been mulling this thing through my head this morning (pitbullitis) and some things still don't seem to mesh.
[ March 13, 2002, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
Glenn, I bin mulling too, clearly your truck doors were profitable and done quickly with minimum costs, and my job at 16' long would take 7 yards of SG and would make the materials very costly in SG. So where is the Break? At what size does SG become more costly than Real Gold? Good thing Jack posted or you would have had a hell of a time trying to stuff that signgold into those carved letters
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hehehe....Tell me about it, Ken! Pushing that SignGold down into those tiny crevices is tough work.
But seriously, the tough part I find myself struggling with is how much work I can get produced in those same 4 hours.
I wholeheartedly agree with Rick about that sense of satisfaction. Unfortunately, feeling good doesn't put food on my table. Especially with the debt situation I'm facing due to the flood that happened a couple years ago.
And I think its there where my mind goes. What is the most profitable way to work today. Do I spend 4 hours on one job? Or do I spend 2 hours on the same job plus another 2 hours on other jobs. In the end, which will result in the most net profit in the end.
This whole line of thinking leads to another topic which needs to have its own thread, I think. Maybe I'll start it this weekend when I have more time to put my thoughts together properly.
posted
So who's line of thinking is proper? I think in those 4 hours I am making money for ME as apposed to doing 2 jobs in the same time with more money going out to the supplier. So are you really making more money or just making more money for your supplier? This topic is getting really heated, but please lets not turn it into a whos right, whos wrong battle. I am sure as a group we can figure this thing out. We haven't even got into pricing this sign. I will post a photo later
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
I expect a good flaming for this, but you seem to be fixated on this idea that your supplier is somehow getting more from the job than you are. As someone on the supply end (ND GRAPHICS supplies both Signgold and Gold Leaf products) I find this puzzling.
From what I understand, sign companies typically invoice sales at a rate of anywhere from 2x to 5x the cost of materials. Do you think your suppliers do the same?!?! We don't get anywhere near 2x our cost and we too have to cover our expenses such as marketing, warehousing and labour, etc., etc.
I am NOT crying the blues, but give us a break and don't deny us the right of revenue or profit. You would have a hard time conducting your business without us - so think of us (the good ones, anyway) as partners; not as adversaries or competitors for your hard earned profit.
To come back to the real discussion, if you gild for the love of the craft / as a labour of love: that is one thing (and please keep on doing it)...BUT if you approach your business as a business (I realize things aren't as black and white as that), think in terms of Return On Investment (ROI). Don't undervalue the time you invest by not seeking the greatest return for it. Choose your markets, customers, jobs and production methods (Gilding or SignGold) based on what will net you the most gross profit per hour.
All things being equal: Do whatever gives you (and your customer) the greatest satisfaction!
[ March 14, 2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
The thing to remember is we do not have to think the same!
Our lives, shops and situations are very different, that's what makes all unique.
After a lengthy phone conversation with Glenn yesterday I got a feeling for his real life situation. If I were glenn I would do the exact same thing, use sign gold get it out the door.
My shop and situation is different so I would do the job different.
Ken makes a real good point about how much you keep. I've been viewing this whole thing lately myself. It is no offence to any suppliers, they will carry what we buy, and we will buy what they carry. Tha is the way it has been between shops and suppliers for generations.
I think it is wise to analize your own situation and decide how you CAN be more profitable no matter what you use.
A good balance between profits and satisfaction is the key that I'm shooting for.
Have a good day!
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
The issue here for me....is the durability issue of one product over another! This directly effects my integrity in the long run Personally,I would rather have a good name as opposed to mass production. Just my slant on the matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
The best I can get for 23k leaf is $32 per book.
Printer-friendly view of this topic