posted
We recently applied vinyl to a newer white GMC pickup truck. The truck was clean, and we cleaned it as normal, with wax & grease remover, water, and let it warm in our shop. We used 3M vinyl (from Gregory) with an edgeprint, and our standard black vinyl (Avery I think). Shortly after she took it she washed it and washed letters off. We re-did parts of it and warned her again not to wash it for a while due to the cold environment here. We have since re done it again, this time skipping the edgeprint and using only vinyl. We just got a message on our machine that it is coming off again. What could this problem be. Our sign shop is very experienced in vehicle lettering, and has never had a problem with HP vinyl on vehicles (unless it pulls the paint off!). Any help on what the problem might be and what the remedy is would be greatly appreciated, Thanks Nicholas
-------------------- Nicholas Parish, In Design Signs 3045 Aerotech Pkwy Suite 3 Montrose, Colorado 81401 970-249-SIGN indesign@gwe.net Posts: 24 | From: Montrose, Colorado | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Check 3M and Avery's specs for "minimum application temperature" for the vinyls you are using. Both the application environment and the substrate (your customer's truck) must be above (the higher above, the better) the recommended minimum application temperature...in order to allow the adhesive to properly flow into the substrate. The graphics should really also be allowed to "dwell" in that temperature for (ideally) 24 hours after application.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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What Jon said... also I don't know if it's me or not but sometimes I find that 2mil high performance dont seem to grasp as quickly as the cheaper 3 mil vinyl. But you gotta let it set at room temperature for at least 6hrs, overnight if possible to give the glue a chance to dry.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Might try warming letter with a heat gun after applied.
We also have a "Not Responsible for Tephlon Policy",,,you might say that she didnt warn you about the tephlon coating, at which point it's between her and the dealership. I would refund her money, not to have bad word of mouth come back at me. you might be able to call her dearler and ask about it. I do not think it was your vinyl failing, but rather the customer failing to inform you. Keep your Eyes open for it in the future, and post a new Tephlon policy soon if this is the case.
Good Luck.
-------------------- Ron Percell Percell Signs 707-769-0639 Petaluma, California
posted
Hey guys,(thought my friend Jon from the north would know this) the problem is easily solved !!!!
Rapid Tac or TacII, the TacII will allow applications down to 30 degrees F. !!
Yes we have applied vinyl to FROZEN substrates at trade shows and suppliers locations (very impresive).
The other thing your doing that screws up the adhesion Nick, "wax and grease remover" you should NOT use petrolium based cleaners, just use Rapid Tac or TacII and a "cheap" paper towell (they both clean well and leave only compatible residue).
No heat guns necc. if you follow instructions !!!
Nick, want some samples ??
call 800-350-7751 or mail@rapidtac.com or visit my site www.rapidtac.com
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Thank-you for coming to my rescue, Roger. I have still have plenty to learn about Rapid Tac!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Thats quite alright, if it wasn't for the need for info. I'dbe outa work !!
A number of folks don't realize that Rapid Tac application fluids "stimulate" adhesives to bond, even in COLD climates, thats a big benefit as I see it !!
Roger (provider of warmth)
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Thank you all for your advice regarding our problem. Even though we are in a cold environment, we use all the tricks of heat and time, and never have problems, even in Telluride. This truck seems to repel the vinyl, which makes me lean toward the idea of a coating on the paint. Any information regarding the Teflon coating on new vehicles? Is this sold as an option? Thanks, Nicholas
-------------------- Nicholas Parish, In Design Signs 3045 Aerotech Pkwy Suite 3 Montrose, Colorado 81401 970-249-SIGN indesign@gwe.net Posts: 24 | From: Montrose, Colorado | Registered: Mar 2002
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It very well could be a coating on the paint. When I first bought my truck it had been detailed by a company that uses a product/system called Blue Diamond. It supposedly offers longer protection for the paint finish, your customer's new vehicle might have something similar on it.
I didnt put any vinyl on my truck for a while after purchasing it and I never had that finish re-applied so I didnt have the same problem.
I'd call the dealership and ask them what kinda coating is on that truck. If Rapid Prep won't remove it, it could be something nasty like Teflon.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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just as an anecdote, as the rest of youse wise guys hit the nail pretty well- 3M (and most other vinyl mfr's) would PROBABLY (to be PC) recommend you wait 12-24 hrs before even breathing on the vinyl, as the adhesive is activated by application; hence your customer running out and washing it soon thereafter is not giving it much time to set. The other thing is- New paint job? Off-gassing?
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I've noticed the slickness of new vehicles too. I couldn't even get my masking tape hinge to stick!
Roger, I have a question about Rapid Prep. If you use Rapid Prep on the area that will receive the graphic and it removes the wax/silicon etc., will that area look significantly different from the adjacent area? I gave the area a quick spritz and wiped it off right away because I was concerned about what it would do. Oh, and thanks for mentioning that Rapid Tac allows for lower temperature application - that's a big issue around here. Since we don't have an indoor facility, we'll be able to start our application season way earlier!
Steve, congratulations. I'll understand if I catch you yawning!
posted
Not my area of expertise, but I can tell you that if that happenrd on a boat...especialy a new one, or on one that had had the gel-coat "detailed", the culprit is the silicone based waxes or liquid finishes that make them "look just like new". They do..they're slick enough that a fly can't land on them. I imagine that Roger's stuff will cut it, but be aware. hk
-------------------- Howard Keiper Independent Contractor Benicia, Ca. thekeip@comcast.net
posted
Yes Howard Rapid Prep will cut the "sillycone", if its a "paint coating,wax,polish.
But if its this "silicone based fleet paint" then you got problems, takes quite a bit of massaging to get it on good.
Also, neil and others, you won't have to "warm veh." before application if using my TacII application fluid, nor does the customer have to wait 12 to 24 hours before washing it.
The secret is "stimulating the adhesive from within" check my site under "how it works".
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I had the same problem back a week or so ago.. my own fault though.. I forgot my rapid prep and rapid tac at the shop.. I figured what the hell I'll do with out.. what a dumb move.. I redid the vehicle last sunday in the snow with a temp of 15 and wind chill around 0... No problem because I rapid preped and rapidtac--ed it .. NEVER DO WITHOUT!!! Thank you ROGER
-------------------- Jason Davie 193 Front Street Deposit, NY 13754 Posts: 976 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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I just finished a post on another site, the gentelman having praise for the products abilities (and saving him time and trouble). I'll tell you the same thing "good to hear and know that profesionals recognise the difference"
Its not brain surgery granted, but not having the proper tools for the job can make ya wish you did.
Such a minor area of such a vast industry, yet very important to every sign buiss. !!
Thanks, Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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I had a similar problem 2 years ago. After replacing the lettering twice I got angry and used soft scrub to "etch" the clear coat, unnoticiable to the customer. Then I cleaned it with alcohol and just to be on the saft side I cleaned it again with 08984 3M adhesive remover. To date the customer has not called and said it was coming off again. I learned this trick several years ago when the clear coats started coming out from the OE Manufactures. When I was doing more hand lettering cause I had a similar problem with paint.
-------------------- Rob Lenz (paintm) Lenz Signs Osage, Iowa (USA) lenzsign@osage.net ICQ 38922548 Posts: 82 | From: Osage, IA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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AS I SEE IT THERE ARE TWO PROBLEMS HERE. 1- THE AREA WAS STILL GREASY OR WAXY OR THE VINYL WOULD HAVE STUCK. WHAT WE ALWAYS DID WAS TO CLEAN WITH INDUSTRIAL GLASS CLEANER ( THE TYPE WITHOUT SILICONE IN IT'S FORMULA) THEN CLEAN THOROUGHLY WITH DENATURED ALCOHOL. GREASE AND WAX REMOVER ONLY SEEMS TO MOVE THE WAX OR GREASE AROUND. THE USE OF A HEAT GUN OR HAIR DRYER ALWAYS HELPS. 2- THE CUSTOMER IS TO BLAME FOR WASHING IT TOO SOON, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLEAN WHEN BROUGHT IN. IF THEY WAS WITH THE WAND TYPE CAR WASH IT PUTS ABOUT 50,000 POUNDS OF PRESSURE ON THE EDGE OF THE LETTERS. EVEN SOME REGULAR CAR WASHES USE HIGH PRESSURE HOT JETS TO LOOSEN THE DIRT. WE ALWAYS WARNED THE CLIEND AGAINST THIS AND THAT HELPED.
-------------------- JUNE RUMPH SIGNWRITERS PUBLISHING PO BOX 20433 BILLINGS, MT. 59104 signwriters@signwritersusa.com 406-252-2214 Posts: 2 | From: BILLINGS, MONTANA, USA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Roger I've been using rapid products for years... just to let you know, EM distributes rapid remover which we buy by the gallon and of course rapid tac, the only complaint I have is that the spray bottle does not last using the glue remover, obviously the chemicals attack the seals and make suction almost impossible. Then the guys go and get one of our other spray bottles and then fill that up with Rapid Remover and then after a couple of days they are ruined... but love your product!
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I read in one of my Vinyl application books I got when starting out that you can use Bon Ami hand soap or Lava hand soap on a wet wash cloth to "rough up" the area on a slick paint job without causing anything visible. Somebody posted using soft scrub earlier this is probably about the same thing. Only time I have ever had a problem like this is when I used a roll of customer supplied vinyl on his job and it didn't stick for long. I asked them how old the vinyl roll was and they said 5 or 6 years and it had also been stored in an unheated outdoor building. It was mottled but the customer insisted that I use it. They ended up buying a new roll before I would finish the job.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I have never had this problem and I probably would try to find another solution before trying the bon ami too but that technique was in a really well respected book on graphics and maybe somebody who posts here has tried it before and can comment. Only problem I have ever encountered with paint is an old 18 wheeler that had aluminum sides and the paint just kept on wanting to leave residue behind on the rag every time I cleaned it. It finally came clean after about 6 or 8 swipes but it still was scarey hoping that the vinyl would stick, so far it has.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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