posted
any of you got it...read the last page, EDITORIALLY SPEAKING. were just a bunch of dummies i guess.....or there takin all our business.......your thoughts....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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it need to be posted in its complete form...and i dont type that quick.......was touting the fast signs franchise shops and how they are doing $300,000.00 a year in their shops.......
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I haven't read the article and please don't post it here without ST Publication permission.
Does the article indicate how many employees it takes to produce $300,000? After 25 years in the sign game, I have a theory that you get to keep around 1/3, or $100,000 in this case. If this has to be divided between 3 or more employees, the bottom line isn't all that attractive.
You are also forgetting that a franchise shop has the added expense of franchise fees. We get to visit quite a few shops during the year and most with 3 or more employees are doing that gross or more. They have to in order to survive.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Yes, they can do it. The biggest franchise here in our town did over $300k last year.
How do I know? Public tax records available at town hall.
Why would I want to know? Well, besides being nosey (that was a joke) its a good idea to find out how well other shops are doing in comparison to your own.
posted
First, I haven't read the editorial yet. From what I've seen of franchise shops, they are like any other business - some are well-run and successful. Others are not. The succesful ones understand and follow basic business principles, such as charging enough money to make a profit after paying their bills. Most of them pursue a segment of the market that I, quite frankly, don't want - low-priced informational and promotional signage, magnetics, real-estate signs, etc. Let's face it, to keep a three-employee shop going by selling banners, magnetics, and coroplast, at the prices they charge in order to be "competitive", they have to damnwell be organized and efficient. There's a reason these places come and go as quickly as they do.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When instant sign shop franchises starting popping up, traditional sign shops were grumbling about lost business. Now that plotters are so cheap, the quickie franchises are starting to holler about all the guys with vinyl cutters in their basements underbidding them. Mpls has SIX PAGES of sign shops in the yellow pages.
posted
I can tell you for certain, having managed for a few of the largest sign franchises for ~ 10 years before going out on my own, that as the shop volume increases, the profit margin decreases. If the shop offers next-day service, they have to staff to handle it almost year-round. Turnover makes it a nightmare. Although a handfull keep a quality staff, most fight with turnover constantly. What winds up happening is that the owner & manager have to work A LOT to make up for it, as well as overtime pay brings down the profit margin considerably.
All this is not even mentioning the fact that to get that most of the work put out has to be done so quickly that they often do not have the time to put out a quality design. Quite often, major design decisions such as colors, fonts, etc. are chosen ahead of time by the customer and a customer service person. The 'designer' if you want to call them that, is just inputting text & spittin' it out.
There are exceptions to what i've said, but I only know of a couple of them.
posted
steve i didnt post it cause i agree with what you say...but the article is like a full page add for FAST SIGNS....and how good it is to pay 4-6% of your income to get their help in makin your business a success....and yes with that much gross income you need at least 3 full time people but they pay most of their help less then $20,000 a year. from what ive seen these are just people users....and they dont want to pay anyone with "talent and knowledge". i only ever applied for one job at a sign shop, back in 85, showed the guy some of the work i did, and he said he could start me off at $4.50 an hour....needless to say i told him where he could stick his $4.50.....could be why i didnt get the job hahahahahhahaha. but you need to read the whole article......
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I read the article earlier this week and don't recall anything to raise my ire. It seemed newsworthy only because these franchise shops had been 'quiet' for the past few yrs. Beyond that I agree with Cam 100%, my market and their's are mutually exclusive.
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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AHH Fastigns. I do some work for the local Fastsign shops. The owners of these shops seem to be good people. Some don't know much about the sign business, but had money and wanted to own a business.
These shops operate in high rent retail strip malls and look to be about 1000 square feet. They out source about all they do.
I hired an outside sales person last month from FastSigns. She is just getting started so her target numbers are not there yet but she will do great.
What got me is that they signed her to a non-compete agreement. I read it and I did not think it held water so I hired her. So maybe the guy will try to sue me but I don't care.
I really don't want any part of their market. Coco signs, banners, large format inkjet, and trade show displays.The most diffacult part of having an ex-FastSigns sales person is training heron what a GOOD sale is. Man it's like deprogramming someone swept away by a religious cult. I'll keep trying.
[ March 02, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Jim Mulligan ]
Posts: 121 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2001
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Signs of the Times is just getting to the west coast, so I thought I would push this to the top to see if anyone else has comments.
The article says 372 stores average $475,000. One store does $3.6 million, 25 stores do $950,000.
Hows your algebra? If you pull out the 26 big hitters and recalculate the average, it drops to $431,647. Now, if you think about what an average is, half the people are above the average and half are below. My guess is that number divides with good business people way above the average, and poor business people way below.
Personally I think the Fast Signs model is basically a good one. It just happens to be something I'm not remotely interested in doing.
I made a visit to the Kinko's sign store here in Folsom California. They have first class (Gerber)equipment and their shop looks great. Fast Signs has to keep their eye on the rear view mirror because someone wants their market.
If I may use John Smith and Dave Sawatsky as examples, talented artist signmakers have nothing to fear from the franchises.
Naturally all of this is one man's opinion, and I would like to hear yours. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Now that I have read the article, I don't see what the fuss is about. We're "dummies"?? Fastsigns is "taking all our business"??? What business would that be? I have absolutely no interest in competing with them for banners, magnetics and POP displays. Anyone who wants the headache of having to crank out that kind of volume while managing the kind of employees you get at those wages, is welcome to it. And as always I have to consider the source...
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Probably I'm an exception in the franchise sign shop business but I wanted to give my perspective. Having been in the sign business for 15 years I CHOSE to go the franchise route and I know there is at least one other Letterhead who has done this and been quite successful! I have 4 employees who do the knockout work & I can do the custom work & any designing I wish to do, and can take the time off to do other things I want to do. I have excellent employees, fine art oriented as well as computer gurus. I went this route to have some equity in my business, if you ever read Michael Gerber's E-Myth you will see that if your business is YOU it's not very saleable. We don't give our work away, quality & service is our motto - my competition is the person in his basement not running a legal business selling to the government & city. I realize that we are not the "normal franchise sign shop" but it is possible to make a good buck and put out quality work in a sign franchise! Deron, I have to disagree with your premise that "as volume increases profit decreases" - once you've covered your overhead expenses the rest is gravy. Just wanted to give my perspective from the "other side of the fence"! EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN NICHE!
-------------------- Colleen Henderson Signs Now, Thunder Bay, ON signsnow@tbaytel.net Posts: 140 | From: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 1999
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Coleen, NICE reply...From my perspective the sign franchise concept certainly has its place. Although I am not affiliated with any franchaise..I often see many of their policies and image building efforts as worthwhile to emulate. The E-Myth is an excellent read for all small businesses.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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I've always been curious - what exactly does a franchise do for you? If it's FastSigns, I know they make available nice literature and of course they advertise nationally.
What does their 'package' consist of? Besides hardware that is, what is in the 'book' and can I buy or read a copy of just it?
If "Joe Blow" had the same amount of money in his hand that it takes to buy a franchise, does anyone think a franchise is a better buy than a good business plan, a good advertising campaign and a good location?
posted
Robb, it depends if Joe Blow is a sign artist or not, If he is a business person, who has money, and no sign experience, then FastSigns may be right for him... they are a slick operation, don't fool yourself. They are a well organized, machine who does their homework, They put off great conventions once a year, and also mini meets in certain areas. They do a lot of research on software, hardware, marketing, and so forth. like you said they produce some pretty nice literature.. brochures, tv ads and so on. also they send a rep from head office to your store once a year to give help, and sometimes tehnical support as well, but I think they show up to make sure the store is up to scratch. So thats what the 6% of sales goes toward. Now if you're doing say $300.000 a year 6% is a chunk, $18,000 is nothing to sneeze at. That could be profit. Steve is right on the money when he says to do that you need to have 3 employees, but how much of the work are you gonna contribute? Colleen is right on the money also with everything she said.. Everything! How do I know? Well I was involved with the first Fastsigns in Canada. I was a junior shareholder and production manager/ computer operater/ screener/ installer/sales person/ and everything else. I brought about 18 yrs of traditional sign experience to the shop. But after 41/2 yrs it was time to move on. So now I operate a storefront about 2800 ft. My wife and I have 3 emplyees at the moment and hope to add a couple of more in the very near future, last summer we had 5 employees. But it seems like everyone here in St. John's thinks you're making a fortune,, in the last 6 mos 3 more shops opened up, so competition is running wild... i just hope their smart. Victor is right also, when I used to go to the conventions some stores would produce over a million in sales annually, but some of the high volume sales stores sometimes would complain that there was no money. But there was one store in Atlanta I believe who would say that his sales were around half of that but he would have great margins.. really good margins. I'm goint to stop rambling now... but for all of you who think you are better than fastsigns, and have the attitude that they can keep their banners, pop. and vinyl work.. well I don't know, maybe your market is different than most and maybe you can make a living doing what you do but for some people those quick sticky, banners and Vynil lettering jobs are quite profitable.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Robb, it depends if Joe Blow is a sign artist or not, If he is a business person, who has money, and no sign experience, then FastSigns may be right for him... they are a slick operation, don't fool yourself. They are a well organized, machine who does their homework, They put off great conventions once a year, and also mini meets in certain areas. They do a lot of research on software, hardware, marketing, and so forth. like you said they produce some pretty nice literature.. brochures, tv ads and so on. also they send a rep from head office to your store once a year to give help, and sometimes tehnical support as well, but I think they show up to make sure the store is up to scratch. So thats what the 6% of sales goes toward. Now if you're doing say $300.000 a year 6% is a chunk, $18,000 is nothing to sneeze at. That could be profit. Steve is right on the money when he says to do that you need to have 3 employees, but how much of the work are you gonna contribute? Colleen is right on the money also with everything she said.. Everything! How do I know? Well I was involved with the first Fastsigns in Canada. I was a junior shareholder and production manager/ computer operater/ screener/ installer/sales person/ and everything else. I brought about 18 yrs of traditional sign experience to the shop. But after 41/2 yrs it was time to move on. So now I operate a storefront about 2800 ft. My wife and I have 3 emplyees at the moment and hope to add a couple of more in the very near future, last summer we had 5 employees. But it seems like everyone here in St. John's thinks you're making a fortune,, in the last 6 mos 3 more shops opened up, so competition is running wild... i just hope their smart. Victor is right also, when I used to go to the conventions some stores would produce over a million in sales annually, but some of the high volume sales stores sometimes would complain that there was no money. But there was one store in Atlanta I believe who would say that his sales were around half of that but he would have great margins.. really good margins. I'm goint to stop rambling now... but for all of you who think you are better than fastsigns, and have the attitude that they can keep their banners, pop. and vinyl work.. well I don't know, maybe your market is different than most and maybe you can make a living doing what you do but for some people those quick sticky, banners and Vynil lettering jobs are quite profitable.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
personally, i think there is a lot i could learn from some of the franchise folks. they have great forms and systems to make those "little" jobs profitable. the franchise route isn't for everybody, but i think there is a lot of business knowledge there, and i wish they'd share it more often.
i've seen enough artisticly talented and POOR Letterheads to know that it takes artistic skill AND business savvy to be a top quality sign business.
this "us and them" attitude that some people here seem to cultivate feels counterproductive. i'm interested in learning from everybody, and in helping everybody. I do magnetic door signs AND i have done some larger projects. i hope that i can learn to do both with flair and make money doing it.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I operate one type of business that is directed by a professional consultant. They want between 6 and 10% of the gross they handle. It sounds like a lot, However, i believe this route saves (makes ) me money for several reasons: First: they are a central collection house for all types of data, marketing and networking info and personal help.
Second: how much would a professional manager cost to do what they do? well i beleive it would cost me thousands more than what i pay them to guide me in running my business model..
Third: New ideas flow fast. One office can complete resaerch on a new idea and get info out to others the next day.
Fourth: New ideas presented at our meetings can be assigned to test locations to be proven and modified. Then the completed method is given out to all others. It takes just a few months to get ideas tested that would otherwise take one person years to try.
The secerete to values in a franchise comes down to NETWORKING.
Would you spend 12 grand a year to get 100 grand back? for just a little more production? without adding on more work hours? hell yes..
just as Michael gerber says,,,Signpainters are really good at painting, but are not usually good at business. So, many times its a good deal to get a professional manager to handle that end of the office.
I know some McDonalds owners who used to own and operate thier own restaurants. Guess what a my friend said about 16 years ago..... I quote "I aint paying no central office 100 grand a year to tell me what to do".. Guess what, he did it anyway and banks about 120 grand a year PROFIT ..HMMMMMM What person would love to bank 20 grand a month at the BOTTOM line.. i would..
I summary, there is a place for franchises and there is money to be made. There is money to be made otherwise too.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
It sounds like the same argument over and over.....Business Management vs. Design Freedom.
On one side there are those who are more concerned about the bottom line. On the other are those who are more concerned about design and the freedom to do as one sees fit. The real trick is to balance the two.
A person who can effectively combine them both is the one who always win out over either side.
For myself, I'm tired of being a "starving artist". Does that mean I have to give up doing really cool designs? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Does it mean that sometimes I have to use SignGold instead of laying gold by hand. Yeah, sometimes it does. It all comes down to what your goals are and what you are willing to learn and to sacrifice in order to reach them.
posted
I read something last night about franchise operations that was pretty interesting. It seems that new business opening as a franchise have a 7% failure rate, while new businesses opening on their own have an 80% failure rate. Now that's not from the franchisers, but from the mordern marketing practices course, I'm taking.
posted
i'm a bit skeptical of those percentages...
1. franchise operations require the franchisee to be well capitalized. (it takes $60K just to get a Snap-On Tools route, for instance, and thats just a truck and inventory).
2. most small businesses fail because they are undercapitalized.
the "advantage" the franchise gives the francisee is that they prevent them from getting into the market unless they have enough money to make a go of it.
so... if you look at JUST the number of well-capitalized small business start-ups, then you can compare failure rates. i'm guessing the percentages will be much closer than 80% vs 7%.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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