Im restoring period lettering on this old truck for a car dealership. The truck was painted and clear coated using modern day autobody refinishing techniques.

I bought new cans of 1 Shot paint. The paint was sitired, a little bit of paint was placed in a paper Dixie Cup and the paint was so creamy I only needed to add 1 drop of Mineral Spirits.

I cleaned the doors with Rapid Prep.

The paint has taken 2 days to dry. "Whilst" puttin on an outline, the paint just easily scratched off with my fingernail when i went to fix a boo boo. So I got a little carried away, as you can see and scratched off a lot of paint.

I have two questions:

1. What went wrong? or What did I not do correctly?

2. Where do I go from this point? Do I remove all the paint? Or Will a second or third coat of paint right over the top make it more stable?

here are the pictures:

BTW, Imron is the same as most any other urethanes and can be striped, lettered or graphics applied it you know what you are doing. A person who letters or stripes vehicles knows more then a person who doesn't and this is why certain tasks should be handled by qualified persons who do this on an everyday basis.

ask the dealership what material they used t paint it(brand name)...the rest are right,you can letter over any urethane without a problem,but you already said its not an imron product,its a basecoat/clearcoat and joey is right some of the heavy silicon glazes they use in final buffing can cause this....but where we've seen this happen b4 is when SIKKENS is the material used for the color or clear coat,for reasons i wont go into here,lets just say its not real user friendly to any other material other than Sikkens,regardless if you use rapid prep not,even roger will agree with me on that one....there is also a certain dupont clear that causes this prob,but its not used a whole lot and ya never know if they're being forced to use it due to VOC regs etc

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]

On my stripe site I state that 1-Shot lays over the surface and does not bite in like the aggressive HoK lettering and striping paint, but not everyone wants to use HoK which BTW would have been less of a problem because of its ability to bite in and pass whatever was stopping the 1-Shot from adhering and drying no matter what substance if any was left behind.

Also on the site are some how-to's as to using both HoK and 1-Shot together so drying time is really cut down to the minimum.

1. Bad batch of paint
2. Glaze on the truck

If it is a bad batch ob 1Shot, I can't help you, call Kevin.

If it is a glaze on the truck, and it probably is, since it is a restoration:
A. Clean off the lettering
B. Reclean the surface with heavy rubbing compound, or Comet Cleanser
C. Clean with Rapid Prep, Reletter
d. Polish the dull spots with regular polishing compound.

You are not the first guy who got bit by an overzealous bodyshop!!!! i don't know how many times I've had them say: "It's all ready for you, I already cleaned and waxed it, cleaned and Armour-Alled it, cleaned and Blue Corraled it, cleaned and (you fill in any one of a dozen more)!!

listen to the pros.

it has happened to me too.
like glenn said, "Why is the tuition in the School of Hard Knocks so dang expensive?!"

been there and done that brother.

Thanks for the great information. Many of you have asked some question I failed to address.

1. I cleaned each door 3 times with Rapid Prep, changed paper towels frequently.

2. The blue tape is a guide line for my paper pounce pattern. The pattern has to be used three separate times.
a. for the lettering
b. for the shadow (didn't get that far)
c. for the lettering inside the orange and blue circles (old GMC logo)

3. I dusted the pounce paper with an old sock full of baby powder. Next I took an number 2 lead pencil and tediously drew lines over the dotted powdered lines. Then I cleaned off all the baby powder, because I didn't want any dust in the paint. I also kept washing my hands to make sure no oils were coming out of my skin to set on the surface.

4. Its been raining here all week, and a little on the chilly side, however, I have halogen lamps on both doors "cooking" the paint.

5. I had to double coat the orange color, and it started to lift the 1st coat of orange...real orange peal...and I quickly stopped that and it has almost cured out ( i think)

6. This job has to look circa 1964. Total paint, hand pounced pattern, no vinyl stencils used, no fine line tape, not even scotch tape, used to make the top and bottom of the edges straight.
I have to make this look the way a person "perceives" a sign shop would have painted this truck in the mid 60's. So even though many shops used scotch tape back in those days for straight edges, I can't use it because it "looks" like I cheated. No sign shop would have spent two days on this job...they would have knocked it out in 4 hours. Wish I could!

7. The white gallon container is mineral spirits,
the little spray bottle is a spent bottle of kitchen cleaner that now has soapy water in it.
( I use my wife's left over cleaning spray bottles)and this one has been used over and over all summer long, there are no chemicals in it other than a little
dish soap.

Have I missed anything?

I have had paint flake on me before, and after I coated the lettering with a second coat, it was harder to scratch off. It was like the second coat glued the first coat together.

This truck won't get pressure washed like the idiot truckers do to their freshly pinstriped trucks!

I'll let it cure some more, double coat every thing, and let you know what is going on in a few days.

The body shop had this truck 4 months, and I figure I can have it a few more days. It drives me nuts to work on this more than 3 hours a day.

I think it took me 1 hour to paint "BLOOMINGTON, ILL. on each door because I was so dang picky and have been tediously sharpening every corner.

this could have contaminated the surface.
along with incorrect surface prep, this could be a contributing factor to a failed lettering job.

i don't claim to be a hand lettering, off the brush sign artist like a george perkins, monte jumper, terry teague, etc.

hind sight is 20/20.
been there.

i would have surface prepped with something a little stronger than rapid prep or mineral spirits.(most commercial spirits are oily)
on most new paint and clear coat surfaces you must "etch" the surface to get good paint adhesion.

if it started "fisheyeing"that would have been a good indication that the surface was not clean.

i would have applied application tape or "tuffback", both a frisket.

and kiss cut on the truck doors with a good sharp exacto knife,(this would have given the hand done look) peeled the mask and wipe off any surface contaminate with isopryl alcohol.

just my opinion, for what is worth.

thanks for bearing your faux paux dave.

mark

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]

The "Perceived Look" is based on WHAT WAS DONE BY THE TOP SHOP(s) IN BLOOMINGTON ILLINOIS in the mid 60s.

Remember,we are talking Midwest USA, who were slow or even rebelious to catch on to the new ways of the right and left coast.

Everything in this town was the "old way" ( like 1925) My mentor's father wrote for SIGN OF THE TIMES as the freelance "OLD PRO" and now is part of the American Sign Museum (formerly Sign of the Times Museum.)

Their "look" is what I have to replicate, because for so long, for so many years, that is the only way this community looked at sign work. The local museum here if full of old pictures of buildings and vehicles all lettered up. I can't go sticking "JERSEY STYLE" layouts of the same era on a Midwestern truck....cause these people wouldn't understand.

By the way, the local Cadillac dealership is having me do this work. This dealership has been owned by the same family for a long, long time.
The also have pictures of all their old vehicles hanging on the walls. Another reason I can't do a "mod squad" lettering style on this truck.

And, one final note, after trying to drive this truck in and out of the garage, I am glad we are in the year 2001. I don't think power steering was invented yet....gheesh....my arms are sore from trying to steer that clunker!
-----------------

I use a rag service and the rags they supply cannot be used for prep work...(something in them) that isn't condusive to sticking paint.

Another culprit is fabric softner that may be in a rag you use ...even vinyl won't stick after you use a rag with softner in it.

But my bet is "brush oil"...say what you like, lard oil never gave anyone fits...the new synthetic brush oils won't mix with the paint...(their not suppose to right?)

But I'll go a step further here...if I understand you right the paint only scratches off in some areas and not in others? My bet is you inadvertantly started lettering with out cleaning the oil out of you brush (done it myself)another problem arises as brush oil works down out of the healand into the paint...

This is especially a problem if you use motor oil or tranny fluid to oil your brushes.The paint drying time is retarded...scratches off easily in spots...gets a hazy film over the lettering in spots...any of this sound familiar.

My recommendation...clean it all off...prep as before (use paper towels) really clean your brushes well open another can of paint and proceed .
If none of this helps...I don't know any more than anyone else here does...

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]

I clean the surface with mineral spirits on a new paper towel with ban ami sprinkled in to give it some tooth and wipe horizontally, like the wind (especially on surfaces which will get refleted light across and dark colors). I final wipe down with dry, old, cotton t-shirt direct from the laundry into a box in my truck for the clean ones. Bon Ami seems to scratch up the surface just enough to give the bite needed and does clean off the oils.

I might also refer to the theory about using hotter solvents? That one can make some sense, but only on the first coat and only if you are sure it does not lift the substrata! Afterwards using alkyd enamel, only use mineral spirits to slightly reduce One Shot.If in subsequent coats, you use lac. thin., you will definitely see lifting!

Time between coats??? I wait, if there is any way. The next day is better then in an hour.

I buy a gross of medical bottles in various sizes with lids. They are cheap, steril, impervious to solvents and always perfect. No wax cups!

I would also avoid ALL SQUIRTZ ALWAYS. Once you use it, it will take you years to get it out of yoyur system.

2 dont use mineral spirits. Take a rag and wipe mineral spirits on a painted material and let dry then use a good slow enamal reducer in the same way. After they dry one will be very very slippery and thats the only proof you should need.

3 1shot is a hydrated paint product if it is to thick it will skimover and it could take days to harden.

If you have not run up against "sikkins fleet paint" (wet look for fleet tuck jobs)then you
will!!! And you won't like it !!!

This paint (as I understand)contains SILICONE
I know, what am I talking about ?
Well I painted cars begining in 1965,lots of "custom" stuff.
The calls I have processed from our customer help service all turned out "sikkins" it dosn't allow paint or adhesive to stick too well to its surface !!

Good luck with this.

I called the body shop. They told me they used Dupont V7500 production clear coat on this truck.

They claim they did not use buffing compounds or any waxes.

More clarification. I didn't use shop rags, never do, I only use Mardi Gra paper towels or Bounty...the quicker picker upper.

I went over the big city of Peoria, to the Dick Blick store, and picked out 3 of their finest quils in stock, a #4, 5, 7....they didn't have a lot.

The brushes NEVER got a taste of any oil, motor or lard oil, for the start of this job.

I used 1 brush for the white lettering, 1 brush for the orange, and one for the dark blue.

So lets review some things that are suspect:

1. The clearcoat: DUPONT V7500 may need special preping....but what?

2. The paint may not have been completely stired, however, but I practiced on some scraps of Kometex and aluminum and its sticking fine on them.

3. I did use paper cups, not waxed ones. But I did thin with 100% mineral spirits. Since the paint was new and creamy and did not pile up when I dipped into the paint with a pop sicle stick and let it run back into the can, I only used a couple drops of mineral spirits in a small dixie cup filled 1/4 of the way up.

4. I did not use hardner, Dick Blick didn't have any in stock the day I stopped in, and they didn't have any 1Shot reducer...or I would have bought them and used them.

5. Its been cool and rainy here all week. The only heat on in the shop right now is from 4 halogen work lamps which I placed on each side of me on each side of the truck to add some warmth and light my vision. I left the work lights focused directly on the truck door all last night at a distance of 40 inches to gently keep the truck doors warm.

6. Paint may need more time to cure ( and I didn't clarify it before, but this is 1Shot LETTERING enamel and NOT bullentin enamel.

Thanks everyone for the great tips that has come out of this.

What I will do next:
1. Wait one more day for the paint to cure, then double coat with hardner in the paint.

2. If it still comes off easily, then I'll take it to the Blue Becon Truck Wash around the corner and have them blast it all off.

3. Then, I go make another pot of coffee and start over. This job isn't about the money any more...this is a quest!

Here is one more pic of me laying on the floor with my legs underneath the truck and my back and neck proped up on a base ball base and and a catcher's "knee saver" ....thank God for baseball equipment!

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]

On a side note, and maybe this story will make you feel better. Like I said sometimes One Shot scrapes off easily the next day. Back about fifteen years ago I used to stripe cars at the local BMW dealer. I did them for about six or eight years until the body styles changed sales managers. One day one of the salesmen went around to about thirty cars I had striped the day before and took his thumbnail and scratched paint of the fender of every one of the thirty or so cars Why, I have no idea? I never got an explanation, I was to busy explaining how if he ever did it again I was gonna take his yuppiefied suspenders and shove them down his throat pull one end out his ass hook, them together and hang him from the industrial deco art beams in the showroom
I touched them all up, uggggggghhhhh!!!!!!! and everything was fine. It was always easy to scratch them up a day or so later. Did I have problems? I gave the same warranty on the stripes that BMW did on their paint, five years. I did over 3000 cars for that dealer and had to warranty 3 (three) cars.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: George Perkins ]

I have a humidity guage (there's a name for it I can't recall) in my shop, and normal here is about 70%. I have seen paint dry slowly in 90% humidity, but there seems to be a real jump in drying time between 92-96%, where 1-Shot can take a couple of days to dry instead of the usual 8-10 hours. But it will dry eventually if humidity is the sole problem. A dehumidifier and a infrared heater may be something you should purchase.

Well, good news. I just came in from inspecting one letter "R" in the word "Barker" that I had double coated yesterday, (that would be Thursday morning of Oct 11. Now its 24 hours later and that letter is dry and not scratching.

I got a phone call that warned me against double coating the lettering with hardner because it would probably wrinkel up the first coat of white.

It doesn't take to long to double coat, and I am convinced the paint just didn't dry and cure like I thought it should.

So I just finished up double coating the big letters, and after another cup of coffee, I'll craw under the truck and double coat the "Bloomington, Ill."

Over the weekend, I'll let you know how stable the lettering is.

Glyserin has replaced silicone and perrifin in final glazes. Its best to check the ingredients of any product used before you paint.

Just a footnote to what Gavin stated about towells(and Dave as well)
buy the "cheapest" you can find !!!!
The better ones may have CHEMICAL content !!
I know Bounty uses something that leaves a residue and thats something you want to avoid !!

L.E. why clean 2 or 3 times?? I thought you were called lazy for a reason !!
Want a sample of Rapid Prep ??