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Looking at doing some large exterior banners (approx. 3’ x 30’) in the near future for a national convention. Never done any this large before. This is a one-time event, that will last a week. I figured I’d just use intermediate calendar vinyl on 10oz banana banner……….maybe put some of those half moon cuts in em to let the wind flow through……..good idea eh!
Any objections, comments, smart ass remarks, innuendoes, hints, suggestions, insinuations, encouragement, ideas, previous knowledge, advise, experience, know how, etc……..are welcome.
Roger………feel free to give me that lecture on proper banner preparation techniques and the appropriate solutions to use…………and what about that “poly migration” theory I hear about……what’s up with that……….is that important………and another thing.
I been using “ Seventh Generation” “environmentally friendly” 100% recycled paper…….no chlorine bleaching, hypo allergenic, all natural, unscented, no dyes…….think that’s a good prep towel.
Flamers need not apply.
-------------------- John Martin Robson Pendragon Signs & Graphics Yellowknife,NT,Canada
if it's not one thing.....it's two things Posts: 261 | From: Yellowknife, NT, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
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coupla 3 x 10's or 3 x 30's should be no problem to you - -just break the job down into segments you can handle - personally, I would do a 30' by 3' banner in about 5 or 6 pieces - put them together & go collect your money......I'm surprised by how many people here think banners are some kinda hard, mysterious project.......actually they are 'bout the most profitable thing I sell - but that's just me......Carl......
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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My main concern here is not so much doing the job, but rather, my choose of materials. Will they hold up. Some of these banners will be strung across streets.
Is a 10oz banana banner going to hold up. These will be put up in end of July………usually good weather that time of year.
-------------------- John Martin Robson Pendragon Signs & Graphics Yellowknife,NT,Canada
if it's not one thing.....it's two things Posts: 261 | From: Yellowknife, NT, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
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John, Nothing less than 14 oz., roped & grommeted for spanning a street. Don't cut those moons in em, just makes a place for failure. And it looks cheap. Just my nickle's worth!
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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I think the 1st banners we did was 2- 3X40' We did these on a 8' table. Flexi showed me where the margins were and we started there, rolling and unrolling as we went. I personaly would not cut slots in the stuff, if it tears, you know that you'll be blamed.
-------------------- "B0LT" on the chat room thing.
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I agree with Bill. Nothing less than 14 oz. We use 17 oz. premium ambassadors with stitched in D rings. Across a street I would grommet the top and bottom every 30-36 inches or so and thread rope or cable through the entire thing top and bottom to span the street. Wind slits do look cheap and can be a source of faliure but in Jackson we can get some real mean winds in the summer with thunder storms. A 3 x 30 banner has a lot of surface area and in a big wind could pull or bend what ever it's attached to. If you get a big wind and it comes down, will there be car traffic? A good car wreck is not worth not putting some kind of wind releif in the banner. But's that's just my opinion. One last thing. We hardly ever use anything but prem. vinyl. Even banners that are supposed to be short lived have a way of hanging around year to year. We've have banners come back in for a change of "date and year" Personally I would not use intermedaite calender, but again that is my opinion.
Butch Anton did a great article in "Sign Business" about wind slits. If you realized just how little wind load relief it affords, you would never do it again. It really does look cheesy, too.
It's too early to be digging around in my brain to remember the formula for wind load, at least until the second cup of coffee kicks in...
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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[ July 03, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Ron Helliar ]
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I'd be very interested in which issue that article was in. I would love to read it and learn. Personally, I agree but never had anything to back up my thoughts. If you have a copy of it maybe you would email it to me or at least tell my what issue of "Sign Bussiness" it was in. Thanks.
posted
I would use at least 16 oz. D rings with reinforced corners and webbing sewn in top and bottom.No slits. Grommets on top with snap rings.Snap rings attach to a cable and carry it. Rope is tied to D rings and tensions banner. Not to start an argument....I would definately paint this one. I have an account that gets 3x27' banners in sets of 3....they buy about 3-5 sets per year. I paint em on enamel receptive 16 oz. Intermediate vinyl gets pretty stiff in cold weather.
posted
I'd use the heaviest, strongest banner I could find. Then, have it finished with D-rings and reinforced corners. The one week that it will be up will be the most windy week of the year.
I did two 3'x43' banners about 4 years ago and they are still up and look new. They are mounted with screws and washers against a corrugated metal wall. 13oz banner material and 3mil calendared vinyl. When I was asked to do the job they said they would only have it up for about 6 months...
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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You might try running cable or doubled up bail wire with a turn-buckle, secured at both ends, like a clothes-line and tighten it up. Hang the banner from it with quick links and tie off the four corners.
Think of the necessary hardware you may need.
James Perkins Boston
-------------------- james perkins boston, ma Posts: 38 | From: boston | Registered: Jan 2002
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I remember that article Bruce! Butch made a point, based on his experiments, that cutting wind holes in a banner was ineffective, as well as an eyesore.
His solution was to secure the banner using bungy cord instead of rope or cable. This allows the banner to flip and dump the wind.
In our town, over the street banners are no longer allowed. In one case, a large banner actually bent the posts it was attached to. A better solution is to find a highly visible wall to attach your banner to. This will also solve the "see through'issue when banners are lettered on 2 sides.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
When you say premium vinyl……..do you mean cast vinyl or calendar vinyl. I would find it difficult to justify using premium cast vinyl for a banner that will be used for no more then 10 days.
I have a responsibility to my client to deliver a product that meets his needs. I think a stronger banner material with a good and secure attaching mechanism is sound advise that I would adhere to. But stinging him with a material that is 3 times the cost, seems unnecessary (a waste of money), when calendar vinyl would suffice.
Do I make a good point here or am I still to green to know what I’m talking about?
Michael Boone
"Not to start an argument....I would definitely paint this one."
I've got probably 4-3'x30' banners, two lines of copy @11" high and 2 logos at each end.......and you're saying you would paint the letters and logos.........tell me thats not true, perhaps you misunderstood something.
-------------------- John Martin Robson Pendragon Signs & Graphics Yellowknife,NT,Canada
if it's not one thing.....it's two things Posts: 261 | From: Yellowknife, NT, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
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You do make a good point and I for one, would never try and "sting" my customer. I just know that many banners that will only be used for "10 days" have a way of "hanging around for ever. (see Brian's post) Without sounding snooty, we don't even stock anything but premium cast vinyl. When a customer comes in looking for a banner or vehicile vinyl we tell them the cost. We explain that we used only high quality premium cast vinyl. Plain and simple. Most buy the banner and are happy. For some the price is too high and they don't. In the end it is our "Jackson Signs" sticker/logo that goes on it.
Sometimes, I admit that we have to do what we have to do to make a customer happy. I guess we are lucky in that we are just about the only show in town and there are not many towns close. Salt Lake City is 5 hours away and Idaho Falls is 2 hours away. This is not to say we take advantage of customers because we have them over a barrel. We have many 5 star restruants in Jackson and while a 5 star chief can make you a grilled cheese sandwich most will not. If you want a grilled cheese go to the 24 hour dinner.
posted
Since over street is a concern, I'd suggest using 18oz. "block out" material (banner material with black sandwiched between the banner surface color). This will prevent "shadowing" from lettering on both sides. Order the banner with reinforced corners. Nothing is worse than a banner failure over a busy street!!
Good luck. Sounds like a real money maker. I love making big banners. Low material cost & labor = good profit!
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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I do a lot of banners. Most of them are small, 10' x 3'. Last fall, I did two large banners for the new Braddock dam on the Monongahela river. If you've never heard of it, the US Army Corps of Engineers is building a new dam to replace the aging Lock & Dam #2 near Braddock, PA. What is unique about this dam is the construction. It is being built on land and floated up the river to be positioned and sunk. This is the first time this type of construction has been used to build a dam. Information on the process available at http://www.lrp.usace.army.mil/webcam/essroc.htm
Anyway, back to the banners for the project. They were/are 90' x 6'. There were three logo's and the words Braddock Dam on the banner. I used 14 oz. super tough vinyl banner fabric and premium cast vinyl. The largest graphic on the banner was the Traylor logo, just under 15' long. I put these down in one piece. Lots of Rapid Tac!
I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions before deciding on the 14 oz. material. It is very strong. The banners were hung on cables using snap hooks and the bottom and sides were pulled tight with bungee's.
Don't know where you get your blank banners. I got these from Sign-Mart in CA. There is some good information on banners at their Web site. http://www.sign-mart.com/
I talked at length to Ed (800) 533-9099 ext. 105. Regardless of where you get your banners, you may want to pick his brain.
-------------------- Dave Johnson Saltsburg, PA
724-459-7240 Posts: 228 | From: Saltsburg, PA | Registered: Dec 2001
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John....I go along with Michael & George! I always paint large banners. For example....you will use around $350 worth of vinyl, tape, and RapidTac on that job. If you use paint...about $40 in paint, thinner, etc. To plot, cut, weed, mask, and apply (Bubble free) will take longer than laying out the sign and painting, using a quick drying paint , such as Deka or 1Shot with hardner!!!! Plus you won't have to worry about some idiot folding up the banner and causing wrinkles and creases in the vinyl letters.
Werks fer me!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes...I would paint. Banners do not need the perfect corners on letters that would be required...say..on a pickup door. Casual,action style letters are easy to execute with a brush and add punch to a message.Are you locked into helvetica or Roman or...? How intricate are the logos? Can they be simplified and maintain integrity? If the logo gets real complicated.....maybe vinyl could be used. Combination paint/vinyl is always an option. Si is right...materials cost is a big factor here. And as to the care by customer... Oh sure ..he says...I promise to roll the banner...graphics side out. Then next year...in comes the banner for a date change.This was only sposta be for a one time event...but hay. ANd is the banner rolled....not! Its a big wadded mess that layed in someones trunk for 6 months. Oh...says the customer..I wanted to get it in where its dry before it got TOO wet from theHow come it turned green anyway????? How come the vinyl is peelin where there's creases.??????? Of course these things dont always happen.. just ask Murphy! And yes....I can paint big banners fast..time is money Layout and paint the first one..let it dry..then lay a blank over the first and trace the layout....there should be enough of a ghost to see the painted one. I have a lighted section in my easel that is 3/4" acrylic(dang right its heavy!) I use this when doing opaque such as 18 oz.I roll the 2 banners...painted one on the bottom...then lay them over the lighted portion of the easel.big ones need to be done in sections....so I roll them as a set....trace..then continue to roll.. Here's another point...have a place if you can...to paint and try to have a drying area as well.I have 2 big upright tables....24 feet long each.I work on one and use the other as a drying area.If there are more than 2..I have some hooks in the wall...where a banner can hang and dry...clearing up the work area. Its nice if you have a lil extra time...you can work on banners a lil at a time..yes..this is always a luxury in this biz....try to "train " your customers into giving you this option. One more tip...have way too many Pony pinch clamps on hand. If ya paint banners...you need to stretch the wrinkles out and get em nice n flat. One of the secrets to "speeding with the brush" is to have no wrinkles. This also makes it a lot easier to lay vinyl..and also makes it easier to pull the app tape.. I snap a row of Pony clamps onto my shirt so i dont have to keep going back for more. You have em right with ya..be careful tho....where ya clamp....Pinch...Ouch!! Make Roger happy...and make yourself happy.....use Rapid prep!! Banners are REAL signs...make sure to get paid in REAL terms!
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I’m some what baffled by the paint method……….can’t possible see how it would be cheaper. The labour component would be horrendous. The time to do the lay out and paint letters & logos………….. just doesn’t make any sense to me. Besides I’m not set up for that type of work. I suppose that’s why I’m not a sign painter…………rather a sign maker.
I guess I need to get to one of those meets……………need to see the old school methods, to fully comprehend and appreciate this business in its entirety.
Never-the-less, I always appreciate everyone’s comments………….Thank you
-------------------- John Martin Robson Pendragon Signs & Graphics Yellowknife,NT,Canada
if it's not one thing.....it's two things Posts: 261 | From: Yellowknife, NT, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
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