posted
In a previous post, Linda Yang made a simple request for a formula for application fluid. I'de like one too. And one for adhesive remover also. Now, before you all start lambasting me on the economics of making your own fluid, don't bother. ( also read the posts about making your own tack-rags) I too know that Rapid Tack is the best AF that one could ever hope to have and Roger should be Knighted for providing it. But sometimes you may get in a bind and have no choice but to make your own batch just to get a job done. How many shops don't have a sign supply in their town? How many timed have you gon out to do a job and forgot a tool and had to improvise? How many times have you wanted to make your own tool just for the simple reason that you could. ( you know your shop is full of them) I have done all of these. I like using ready to use application fluids. But I have also been known to re-juvinate a squegee just because I get a kick out of doing it, and these things are FREE for crying out loud! This Bullboard is supposed to be here to help each other out, support one another, not blast others for asking an innocent question. Now back to the basic question. Does anyone have a decent formula for application fluid?
-------------------- David Otero Ace Signs 5445 Edith Blvd. NE - Unit B Albuquerque, NM Posts: 70 | From: Albuquerque, NM USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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I understand your points....although I didn't see anyone getting "blasted"
I have used water with abit of Joy in it for a long time for doing window tinting, I have tried the same with some Avery vinyls only to see the glue go a milky white colour. I saw another "recipe" for 50% water 50% meth spirit, and a dash of Joy.
Window tinting is the only thing I do wet, vinyl is all dry. I have been trying to get Rogers gear sold here in Sweden, have just recieved a gallon of Rapid Tac, I personally would only entertain a "mix" or a product recomended by the distributors of the vinyls you use. No point in making something homemade that might react with the one thing that is holding all your work together???
AS for removers, there are many petroleum based products that dissolve glue, again special care in deciding what surfaces its used on.
I use a Bosch wallpaper stripper for most vinyl removal, it goes very fast and often leaves no glue, it seems with vinyl removal temperature is a major factor in whether glue is left or follows the vinyl.
I understand your need to fix a little "free" here and there. I would hate to have to redo a job because of some reaction to a homemade recipe.
I guess in a modern day shop there are many things we buy in that we can question their worth in the long term....then again there are many things that are bought in that give piece of mind, and time to focus on other stuff.
How you spend your time and money are your business, there is a solution for homemade fluid as requested....although I have no idea how it affects the different adhesives that are used today!
I am looking forward to getting into Rapid Tac for those insatnces you mention where having an application fluid would help, and knowing in our cold climate that if you leave the shop with a wet application there is no risk of a thin thin film freezing under the vinyl, and coming off the first time its pressure washed.
I believe Rapid Tac reacts in a positive way with glues to advance thier adhesion properties faster than soapy water.
posted
As mentioned in the last Summa catalog, I've taken to using a two teaspoons of Wisk in a quart of distilled water. I did some tests where I applied with it, put one sample in the sun and one in the shop - and after two months tried to pull the vinyl up.
It was stuck like the proverbial glue.
Rapid Roger is a good merchant who helps out with his insight on a lot of posts here, and for that he is rewarded with a strong following and a long list of admirers. His products are good, damn good, but I understand sometimes you need either a bulk of stuff or you need some RIGHT NOW and cant wait for the UPS truck to bring it to you.
You just want to make sure you stay away from soaps that have any sort of oils or lotions in them. Thats about it as far as I can tell.
I've tried things stupidly - like say, Windex. Personally I've never had any failures or things come back to haunt me, but thats just me... I know now they are bad now, but who knew in the beginning?
One thing I can also add - when chosing your squirt bottles or storage bottle for mixing etc - do NOT use a jug or bottle that had anything in it that might have contained oils, sugars, etc. I had a brand new gallon jug of Rapid-Tac bust once, and poured the contents in a washed out anti-freeze jug - guess what, tainted the whole batch and almost ruined a whole sign!
I hope that helps. I might have got the mixture wrong on that Wisk thing, maybe Jim from Summa can 'tune it up' for me.
posted
In a pinch you can use mineral spirits or wd40 and a lot of elbow grease to get the glue off. if you use 1 cap of joy to a gallon of water for application fluid it will work but you will have to wait longer than you will if you use rapid tac.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I had a brain fart just this morning!!! Drove about 25 miles to do some lettering on a truck. When I arrived I realised I had forgotten my tool kit which included my spray bottle of Rapid Remover.
The owner had removed the old lettering lettering but left the adhesive. I used some varsol on a rag and it worked pretty well for softening up the adhesive since it doesn't flah off very quickly.
Of course a credit card was the substitute squeegie for applying the new lettering.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
I guess I better not forget my squeegee since nobody will give me a credit card! Hee! Hee! just kiddin'
-------------------- John Cordova Gitano Design Studio Albuquerque, NM Posts: 268 | From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
i agree with most here ..sometime we would forget our heads ....if it werent attached to our necks. i also have used windex NO DRIP...without any failure....but where i did use it was on car windshield banners, and most of these dont stay on the car for more then a year. i also dont do a lot of wet applications..... also for removing vinyl glue....i was near a NAPA store one day and had some glue to remove so i bought 2 spray cans of BUG & TAR REMOVER...WORKS GREAT...also i built vinyl racks, instead of buying them...outa 2 x 2 and 3/4 plywood....but i needed to fit thme into certain size cabinet. and all idid was cut the 2 x 2 at 15", laid out 4.25 squares on the board, found center and drilled hole then screwed 2 x 2 to plywood at center(this size for 20" x 10 yrds rolls)for the 20 x 50 yrd rolls you need to make the squares 5"-5 1/2" your preferance.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Try 2 parts water,...I part denatured alchohol,..1 drop ivory dish washing detergent, to a gallon total. Be forewarned this mix is toxic.I have considered using grain alchohol but then I might have the hired help staggering around blowing bubbles.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
David, I already gave my formula for App Fluid in Linda's post. (Same as Timi's)
Before I knew about Rapid Remover, I was very happy with a grocery store product called "Goo Gone". Water based, citrus smell, rinsed off clean, worked much better than any solvent. I still have to say however, that Roger's product works a lot faster. In a pinch Goo Gone is my fallback.
There's another product out there that I've picked up in paint stores called "Goof Off". DO NOT USE IT FOR GLUE REMOVAL! It seems to be some kind of naptha or xylol base and will instantly dull all but the toughest painted finishes.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Good point Joe, most of the other adhesive REMOVERS are ZYLENE products(which your offspring nor your customers will appreciate you using).
We know that using these OTHER products is unhealthy in a big way but, they also leave a "oil residue" on the substrate when your done usin em. This means you have to go back over the substrate with some other solvent to clean the residue off.
This is not only redundent, but costly as well.
Thanks Joe!!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I wonder what others have to teach me about this. I have kept a water spray bottle around & after the first few years of putting a few drops per quart of dish soap OR isopropyl alcohol, I finally had been in a hurry to refill so many times where I just went with the water alone, that now my recipe is just that. Plain tap water. Any job I fear getting bubbles, I spray a little water, smooth it out on the adhesive & squeegee down. It does help me with the large coverage areas on vehicles or aluminum, glass or other non-pourous materials. I have Rapid-Tac Roger sent me & am glad to know about it's adhesive enhancing, or activating properties, but for keeping air bubbles out I seem to get by with water. 10 years and counting...
posted
I used Goo-Off one time to remove left over adhesive on an aluminum sign (thank god it was on my own sign). I then used 5-star wax and grease remover to remove any remaining residue. Everything looked hunky dory for a couple of weeks then I looked at it one day and the edges of the vinyl were curling up. Now I use only adhesive removers that are meant for vinyl work. As far as a Rapid-Tac substitute, I found one, Rapid-Tac II, awesome stuff. I have had to use soap and water in a pinch though. When I have to make it, I mix about 2 thirds water 1 third isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol and a spoonful of white dish soap (no spiffy kind just plain old dish soap. I use all of the alcohol in the mix to promote faster drying. I haven't had any problems with any jobs done that way other than taking too long to do because of the lack of Rapid-Tac.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Hey Doug, have you followed the instructions and tested or used the samples??? Don't forget to use "cheap grocery store paper towells" NOT the ones that say "lint free/static free" NOR the "super absorbant pockets" These have chemicals in them, bad residues will result from they're use!!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Hey Roger, I did a windshield, at night in the very cold, humid air the other night WET with the Rapid Tac II sample you sent me. It worked like a charm and was stuck on hard in a minute or so. Man have I been doing it the hard way doing windows dry. One thing, YOU MUST FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS to the tee. My gallon of Rapid Tac II from ssk should be here tomorrow, I can't wait. One thing, man that stuff stinks, can't you spiff it up to smell like regular Rapid Tac?
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I have to say Rogers stuff is the best but, and it is a big BUT, buying Rapid Tac in the UK it costs the equivalent in pounds sterling (£36.50 including delivery & tax) of $55 per US gallon, well if you use one bottle a month (remember the weather in the UK can change from -10C to 25-30C throughout the year) thats qite a lot of money. I do use Rapid Prep and Rapid Remove but I will continue to make my own app fluid. 100ml of methylated spirits, 5 or 6 drops of the CHEAPEST washing up liquid you can find and then make this up to 1litre with water. It doesn't work as well outside in winter but the difference is £400 per year for Rapid Tac or £25 per year to make it up yourself
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
This morning I'm headed out to do a set of vinyls on a turck and door. Never tried Rapid Tac but sure wish I had some now! I am also a Goo-Gone kind'a guy. Works well for me but always looking for something better. Used to do a lot of aircraft decals and we used 409 out of the bottle. Never had any failures. Guess I've been lucky. Hey Rodger, great to see ya back man and how about some samples?
Stephen, I bet you never "track" your labor hours.
You may not know what your time is worth, plus, one "return to site" on a sign that was applied in the cold with "your mix" that has to be squeeged or whatever, uses up that $55.00 on one bad job alone !!
Rapid Tac is like insurance, $55.00 a month can and does save hundreds of "labor dollars" (dollars waiting on dimes)
thats my opinion(of course) Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Hey Roger, as steve said, great to see ya back! Yes, I am using the sample Rapid Tac starting the day it arrived when I was doing some truck lettering. It's half gone & I will be ordering the larger size soon. I havn't tried RT2 yet, but don't look forward to the smell now (If your coming to Maui soon, I'd buy a gallon direct from you.)
I only posted about my old stand-by of water because of David's specific interest in this topic. I did not reply to Linda's thread since directing her to you was the best advice anyway.
posted
Thanks Doug, glad to hear that you are using them, glad they are workin for ya.
I won't be gettin over there till after May, but then I don't keep any stock here(cept a few qts. for my use mainly)anyway You wouldn't beleive how well Remover kills wasps,centapedes,ants,scorpians.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
The secret Ingrediant your looking for is called surfractant, you can get it at a autobody supply place, add surfractant and water with a little alcohol, the alcohol keeps the water from freezing, you can make your own application fluid for less than 50cents a gallon. Rapid Tac is a good product but I can't see spending $24.00 a gallon. Glue removal paper towel soaked with paint thinner,wipe on wet then follow with a cleandry paper towel rolls the glue right off, Prep use sherwin williams 3812 cleans all grease,waxes, tar, anything elese you can put on a vehichle,
-------------------- Scott Moyer Canadensis, Pennsylvania 570-595-0310 Posts: 111 | From: Canadensis PA. USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Scott, do ya still use a TV tray to work from or have you found a cheaper one at Wal-Mart ?
It seems to me like you are following Roger Bailey through posts just enough to become a nuisanse and not a contributor. Theres no doubt in my experience that there are other formulars for whatever the project or situation, but being a professional in whatever the craft or trade, is alot easier using professional supplies then to totally re-design things in order to fit your pocketbook.
All of us here at one time or another have done our homework to find out where we would like to spend our time and energy as we look forward to making money, but investigative engineering for a formular which cost pennies per job, to me is just a waste of time.
Its almost like coating MDO and waiting well over 24 hours just to be able to work on it. The 3812 you mention is a petroleum based product which in my line of work can and will cause more problems at times then using a product made by Rapid-Tac.
HAVE A NICE DAY
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
And by the way Scott, the correct word is surfactant. (for those of you in Lizard Lick, "surfactant" is a fancy word for detergent)
*************
Anyhoooooo......Roger, I've just gotta say, I love Rapid Prep. I had a couple hundred glass panels to screen print using Nazdar 3200 UV ink. I used Windex to clean the glass, but I kept getting holidays in the print. I tried using Rapid Prep and I got a perfect print every time.
posted
Geeze whats next? making your own MDO outta your neighbors tree and legal pad? I noticed that just about everybody that slams roger or rapid tac is usually doing it outta jealousy and outright cheapness...sorry,but if you know so much more about it than he does,invent your own formula and compete..... i realize the original point of this thread was what could you use in an emergency,but when i read people say "i just can't justify spending $24"......if you can't afford $24 or less than say $2 per job then you oughta take a look seriously at your choice of professions. In regard to 3812s,ppg's brand,any brand...heres one tip...ITS CRAP....each and every ounce of every brand SUCKS.I dont give a damn who tells you,how long you've been using it,or what hotshot you saw using it in a video somewhere 1 rule holds : You use it at your own risk . If you think thats harsh,too bad...you're talking to someone right here who selling a product like that,by one of the "big 3" as far as paint companies go AND under their recommendation....cost us $71k out of pocket to keep customers happy b/c using it caused a S***tstorm of problems. Thats right..$71k...puts a helluva dent in your yearly profit #'s and contributed to the end of a 30yr relationship with a supplier....and country wide we werent the only ones,trust me. I know full well that sometimes,yeah when ya gotta ya gotta(make your own app fluid etc),it happens to everyone. But just about everyone here tries to promote this site as being the leaders of the industry as far as buisness and talent,so to come on here and brag openly about how cheap you can be doesn't give any incentive to someone new or someone just looking for a better way to ramp up the quality of their own work and perhaps stop charging $4 for $40 worth of work. Just my .02
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
maybe if the UK dudes want a better price (avoid shipping) maybe they could get roger to have someone make it in the UK.....
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Oh boy, here we go again:) Scott as far as the Rapid Prep vs. the 3812, I used 3812 as a degreaser for about twenty years til I tried Rapid Prep, no contest!!!! 3812 is great for removing wax, however it WILL NOT budge dirt or road film, it will smear it all around though:( you have to use 409 or something similar BEFORE you use the 3812. Let's see 409 and then 3812 or Rapid Prep once? Plus if I'm not mistaken, Rapid Prep is nowhere near as harsh as 3812. Oh yea, one more thing the last gallon of 3812 I bought was like twelve bucks MORE than Rapid Prep!!!!
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Well, there's not much I can add cause it's all been covered here already..
Was gonna suggest 1/2 water, 1/2 alcohol with a "lotion free" liquid soap.. that's been mentioned already.
Then back on the debate, hey, if you cant afford to lose 50 cents on a job cause ya used Rapid Tac, maybe you should buffer that 50 cents into the cost of the job.. Better yet, take that 2 oz bottle of Rapid Tac and resell it for $5. Make money on it.
With 64 bottles to a gallon, that's $320 you can make on a gallon of fluid that cost less than $30.
Where's the controversy in that??
Hey Roger, on Sept. 11 (the big day) I went to one of the boat manufacturer's shops in Lake Havasu (Magic Powerboats/SleekCraft) to apply some graphics for a magazine cover shoot. When I pulled out my sprayer and started using the RapidTac, the guys in the shop all caught the aroma and came over. Turns out they all knew what it was and wanted to share their high praise with me. They stock it, along with Rapid Prep, for use in their boat manufacturing for cleaning and prepping molds and stripping mold release wax from older molds to repair and re-season them.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Thanks for sharing that Mike !! I wonder how they obtain it, I don't recall a "boat manuf." in your kneck a the woods, do they build "sportfishers", the big 40 ft. ones???
Oh well, I'm happy when they're happy !!
We even sell to N.A.S.A.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I do very little vinyl since I don't own a plotter. When I do use vinyl I just use soapy water to apply it with. I know this sounds stupid but what is the difference between Rapid-Tac and soapy water?
Thank You,
Kenny T
-------------------- Kenny Thomas Kenny Signs Deatsville, Al Posts: 12 | From: Deatsville, Alabama | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Kenny ,, now u did it... now yer goona get a free sample of rogers magic juices.
All u have to do is make sure you give roger your address and he will show you exactly how good and what the difference is..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kenny, there is much for you to learn (includeing application fluid oposed to a posistioning fluid) E-mail your address, but first visit my site; www.rapidtac.com
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Can’t wait for Rapid Tac III to come out………….apparently you just pour 5-6oz RTIII with ½ can of pepsi, couple ice cubes, twist of lime and………….call it a day.
-------------------- John Martin Robson Pendragon Signs & Graphics Yellowknife,NT,Canada
if it's not one thing.....it's two things Posts: 261 | From: Yellowknife, NT, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Roger, oops I coulda swore I posted a response here yesterday but it either got deleted or I never hit the post button..
Anyways, the boat manufacturer is Magic Powerboats, they build speedboats - deep V's, cats, tunnel hulls.. right now their largest boat is a 34 footer but they have a new 44 foot Cat on the way.
I suppose you could fish off these boats if you really wanted to but they're more designed for status and offshore use.
They're considered a custom boat builder and sell directly to the consumer with a set of customizable options on each boat. They're beautiful boats. The one I did had a $50,000 engine in it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Rodger loved your samples sure wish we could buy your products down under also would you believe how much trouble I am having just trying to buy some lil chislers
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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